out now?


  • Total voters
    166
  • Poll closed .

LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
3-5-2 would have suited his tactic better. He tried Simeone style 4-4-2 but we sat too deep. Our mids don't have Atletico's work rate.

It's obvious the right tactic against Pep is to counter but I think the 4-4-2 was the reason we were so deep. To cover the CBs, you need the CM to sit on top of them, it drops the whole team back.
The reason I wouldn't field Dybala there is that he doesn't have pace to leave opponents behind, if we're talking about 30-40 meters runs and that's what he would have to do consistently if he operates as a winger. IMHO he's so much better closer the the goal, since he's really quick off the mark, but he can't keep this up and usually gets caught from what I've seen so far.
:tup: in general we have a lot of players who prefer to play more central.
The 4231 needs someone like Pereyra on the wing while Dybala could be the treq considering he has Sturaro and Marchisio as DMs. It could work but then you're left without a place for Pogba and playing him as DM would be a waste.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,499
Here is a novel idea, play both Dybala and Morata in central attack? That actually works well with countering approach, wether we play with 3-5-2 or 4-3-3.
 

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
His formation is garbage, and i'm not referring to him using morata in it, thats about the only thing that makes sense, but the fact we wouldnt use mandzukic. Allow me to explain.


Everyone always looks at Guardiola's team and mesmerises just about everything except the key part. The central axis.


Guardiola's phylosophy, is to keep the team extremely wide, and forcing them not to help the centre, but to assume and rely on them winning the duels and freeing themselves. He puts a rather good zonal pressing to back it up in case that player does lose the ball, its difficult to gain from it.

As a huge fan, you might find it odd to hear it from me, but Allegri massively disappointed me in the first leg. He is supposed to be good at anticipating Guardiola's style, and completely missed the ball with his tactics. And formation.


Forget about the wide players, about the forward runs from the am line, from the potent striker. Its all about that centre axis. Guardiola changed his formation over the years, but the phylosophy remains the same. Wingers stay very wide, and the central players must make it to the final third on their own, the opponent will either keep check of the wings and face trough balls to the forward and penetrating run of one of the am's, or they'll stay compact, in wich case they'll do two passes and then cross it to the completely free winger on the other side, who doubles up with either the penetrating am, or striker, again outnumbering the cb's.


If you are going to sit back and allow the central midfield to pass it all the way to 5 meters from the penalty box, you will get shafted. They'll do that, and keep passing back and forth, untill there is some space between fulback and centreback, they'll switch to the wide player who's cutting inside, and an am or the striker will go between the fullback and centreback, the other am roams (mostly muller) and you concede. Our first goal, that muller position, is standard.


How do you play against it ? Well, this is where you miss vidal. You need to put huge zonal aggression in the center. talking about 30 meters diameter, and from your box to 10 meters behind the midfield. You need 2 players consistantly pressing the cm's close so they cant just pass it to your box and pick out the inside cutting winger or penetrating am. You need 1 midfielder and 1 centreback (ideal with a 3cb defence) to cover the space behind the hunting players. You need 1 striker to drop off and continiousl harrass the midfielder who falls back deep. You need very good wingbacks who have huge stamina and put up a fight, so you can track their wingers quickly enough.

Spain in 2012 played a sorta similar style, Italy in the first game played 3-5-2 and very high pressure, with alot of duel power centrally, making it hard for spain to combine trough and reach wide players. Now spain didnt have a true forward, you cant do this vs bayern cause they'll start trying to get lewandowski or an inside winger trough the offside trap. You need to sit deeper, but keep enormous pressure in that central box. dont sit on your backline, move it up abit, just far enough that its not too easy to play it over the defence. Allegri, should fucking know this. He deployed a similar tactic versus barcelona (guardiola's) a few years ago. Sit deep, have 2 players and a forward press, rotate who presses, and you get trouble.


Juve will have significantly increased chances with the return of Chiellini and especially sandro. Sturaro must start

Buffon

Barzagli, bonucci, chiellini

Cuadrado, sturaro, marchisio, pogba, sandro

dybala, mandzukic



See, bayern has a godlike offence. So if you just attack that, you'll get arsenal'd. You need to counter their gameplan first, and move from there.

Cuadrado and Sandro will have to work very hard, be quick enough to pick up robben and costa


Dybala needs to continiously pressure the defenders and Mandzukic aswel, but mandzukic needs to keep pressing vidal, because they'll play it back if they cant go forward. Pogba and Sturaro needs to put huge zonal pressure in the center.

Marchisio needs to cover the space behind the cm's, and chiellini or barzagli needs to step out in case something gets trough. both cuadrado and sandro need to keep relatively tight, but race to jockey the wide players when they get a pass.


When we recover the ball, the closest wingback must sprint forward immediatly, 2 cm's back it up and both strikers aswel. Take a yellow if they can recounter.





This is the only way to play against bayern. If you play offensive, they'll beat you with superior offensive. If you sit back, they'll remind you they are the single best team at murdering teams that sit back.



I really hope Allegri doesnt fail again.

- - - Updated - - -

The final 30 minutes of the game, Juventus was putting huge pressure down the center, and their wingers got tired (costa cause omfg cuadrado, and robben cause robben). As a consequence, bayern had difficulties building, and we were winning the duels (key to this).

Now you cant start with pressure that high, Robben, lewandowski,Muller and Costa will have a field day on counters, but you sit reasonably deep and put that very aggression in the center. Win duels in the center, press the cm that drops deep, play cuads and sandro behind their wingbacks and outnumber them.
 

JuveE46

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,595
His formation is garbage, and i'm not referring to him using morata in it, thats about the only thing that makes sense, but the fact we wouldnt use mandzukic. Allow me to explain.


Everyone always looks at Guardiola's team and mesmerises just about everything except the key part. The central axis.


Guardiola's phylosophy, is to keep the team extremely wide, and forcing them not to help the centre, but to assume and rely on them winning the duels and freeing themselves. He puts a rather good zonal pressing to back it up in case that player does lose the ball, its difficult to gain from it.

As a huge fan, you might find it odd to hear it from me, but Allegri massively disappointed me in the first leg. He is supposed to be good at anticipating Guardiola's style, and completely missed the ball with his tactics. And formation.


Forget about the wide players, about the forward runs from the am line, from the potent striker. Its all about that centre axis. Guardiola changed his formation over the years, but the phylosophy remains the same. Wingers stay very wide, and the central players must make it to the final third on their own, the opponent will either keep check of the wings and face trough balls to the forward and penetrating run of one of the am's, or they'll stay compact, in wich case they'll do two passes and then cross it to the completely free winger on the other side, who doubles up with either the penetrating am, or striker, again outnumbering the cb's.


If you are going to sit back and allow the central midfield to pass it all the way to 5 meters from the penalty box, you will get shafted. They'll do that, and keep passing back and forth, untill there is some space between fulback and centreback, they'll switch to the wide player who's cutting inside, and an am or the striker will go between the fullback and centreback, the other am roams (mostly muller) and you concede. Our first goal, that muller position, is standard.


How do you play against it ? Well, this is where you miss vidal. You need to put huge zonal aggression in the center. talking about 30 meters diameter, and from your box to 10 meters behind the midfield. You need 2 players consistantly pressing the cm's close so they cant just pass it to your box and pick out the inside cutting winger or penetrating am. You need 1 midfielder and 1 centreback (ideal with a 3cb defence) to cover the space behind the hunting players. You need 1 striker to drop off and continiousl harrass the midfielder who falls back deep. You need very good wingbacks who have huge stamina and put up a fight, so you can track their wingers quickly enough.

Spain in 2012 played a sorta similar style, Italy in the first game played 3-5-2 and very high pressure, with alot of duel power centrally, making it hard for spain to combine trough and reach wide players. Now spain didnt have a true forward, you cant do this vs bayern cause they'll start trying to get lewandowski or an inside winger trough the offside trap. You need to sit deeper, but keep enormous pressure in that central box. dont sit on your backline, move it up abit, just far enough that its not too easy to play it over the defence. Allegri, should $#@!ing know this. He deployed a similar tactic versus barcelona (guardiola's) a few years ago. Sit deep, have 2 players and a forward press, rotate who presses, and you get trouble.


Juve will have significantly increased chances with the return of Chiellini and especially sandro. Sturaro must start

Buffon

Barzagli, bonucci, chiellini

Cuadrado, sturaro, marchisio, pogba, sandro

dybala, mandzukic



See, bayern has a godlike offence. So if you just attack that, you'll get arsenal'd. You need to counter their gameplan first, and move from there.

Cuadrado and Sandro will have to work very hard, be quick enough to pick up robben and costa


Dybala needs to continiously pressure the defenders and Mandzukic aswel, but mandzukic needs to keep pressing vidal, because they'll play it back if they cant go forward. Pogba and Sturaro needs to put huge zonal pressure in the center.

Marchisio needs to cover the space behind the cm's, and chiellini or barzagli needs to step out in case something gets trough. both cuadrado and sandro need to keep relatively tight, but race to jockey the wide players when they get a pass.


When we recover the ball, the closest wingback must sprint forward immediatly, 2 cm's back it up and both strikers aswel. Take a yellow if they can recounter.





This is the only way to play against bayern. If you play offensive, they'll beat you with superior offensive. If you sit back, they'll remind you they are the single best team at murdering teams that sit back.



I really hope Allegri doesnt fail again.

- - - Updated - - -

The final 30 minutes of the game, Juventus was putting huge pressure down the center, and their wingers got tired (costa cause omfg cuadrado, and robben cause robben). As a consequence, bayern had difficulties building, and we were winning the duels (key to this).

Now you cant start with pressure that high, Robben, lewandowski,Muller and Costa will have a field day on counters, but you sit reasonably deep and put that very aggression in the center. Win duels in the center, press the cm that drops deep, play cuads and sandro behind their wingbacks and outnumber them.
Wtf is this godfather part 4 screenplay? Gtfo kid lolWe have 35% ball possession, keep getting pressed back...we need to be able to press that inferior defence and the only way you push them back to them KEEP them pinned back is put pogba where he can cause damage, wtf do we give him midfield duties for at the left? Can you explain THAT POS decision? Why are we trying to make cuad an AM when his speed is best utilized as a freaking winger? Why are we playing slow khedira ahead of sturaro when he's got so much energy? In football, to fail is to stick to a failing gameplan..a 4-5-1 that can convert to a 4-2-4 when attacking is way better than a static 4-4-2..absolutely no point for this system in countering style play.
 

JuveE46

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,595
:tup: in general we have a lot of players who prefer to play more central.
The 4231 needs someone like Pereyra on the wing while Dybala could be the treq considering he has Sturaro and Marchisio as DMs. It could work but then you're left without a place for Pogba and playing him as DM would be a waste.
Thanks you very much at least you make sense..yes maybe pereyra would serve better there but I was thinking not so much the speed of Dybala but his technical ability and dribbling would allow him to cut inside to shoot or connect with pogba who will be behind the striker as a AM not a DM...
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,499
Thanks you very much at least you make sense..yes maybe pereyra would serve better there but I was thinking not so much the speed of Dybala but his technical ability and dribbling would allow him to cut inside to shoot or connect with pogba who will be behind the striker as a AM not a DM...
4-3-1-2 with Pogba as AM is what you should be looking for. And if anyone drifts left on occasion should be Morata not Dybala (who is better cutting in from right on occasion).
 

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
Wtf is this godfather part 4 screenplay? Gtfo kid lolWe have 35% ball possession, keep getting pressed back...we need to be able to press that inferior defence and the only way you push them back to them KEEP them pinned back is put pogba where he can cause damage, wtf do we give him midfield duties for at the left? Can you explain THAT POS decision? Why are we trying to make cuad an AM when his speed is best utilized as a freaking winger? Why are we playing slow khedira ahead of sturaro when he's got so much energy? In football, to fail is to stick to a failing gameplan..a 4-5-1 that can convert to a 4-2-4 when attacking is way better than a static 4-4-2..absolutely no point for this system in countering style play.
Not sure what you are on about here

- Pogba is a central midfielder and is played like one. The left central midfielder helps the left full/wingback.
- You cant "keep a team pinned back" that plays as wide and offensive as bayern. You cant cover all the space to do so. At least not at the start of the game. You need to stay compact, but put huge zonal pressure on that central axis.
- Pogba is a central midfielder, not a forward or trequartista. He does damage by beeing pogba. That is winning duels, receiving and keeping passes and combine his way out of the midfield pressure (he was by far the best at it), and by making forward runs and combining.
- Cuadrado is a wingback, and in my explenation is used as a wingback. Where exactly did i mention that we field an am ? 352 doesnt use one
- I'm talking about a 352 wich turns into a 334 when countering
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
24,030
Buffon

Barzagli, bonucci, chiellini

Cuadrado, sturaro, marchisio, pogba, sandro

dybala, mandzukic
Sadly Max doesn't like to field both Cuadrado and Sandro. But if he wants to take the game to them these two should be there.

More than formation, or selection of players what hurt us the most is inferiority complex our players had in the first hour or so of the game. This Bayern side isn't even that particularly good at pressing as they leave so many gaps behind (unlike 2013 Bayern), while we have more than a few technical and skillful players now who could handle it and exploit the gaps between their lines. You could have seen it on few occasions when we didn't fuck up easy 2-3 meters pass and then managed to pass the ball around more quickly, how easy it was to beat their pressing. IF we enter the return leg with the mindset of the last 30 minutes of Turin's game, I think we can progress.
 

LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
Thanks you very much at least you make sense..yes maybe pereyra would serve better there but I was thinking not so much the speed of Dybala but his technical ability and dribbling would allow him to cut inside to shoot or connect with pogba who will be behind the striker as a AM not a DM...
Yeah but I don't think it would work. In 4231 wingers need to be very quick and help A LOT defensively. It's just my opinion. Overall I can't see us playing a formation with one attacker. It's doable but not when you play serious games and whole squad is fully fit. Dybala is not fast nor strong enough to play on the wing so far away from goal. I could see him as RWF in 433 because wingers are closer to the penalty area.

Overall we're able to take the best out of Dybala as SS and I'd stick to that.
 

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
4-3-1-2 with Pogba as AM is what you should be looking for. And if anyone drifts left on occasion should be Morata not Dybala (who is better cutting in from right on occasion).
Pogba thrives as a cm.

He wins alot of duels of any type
He is worldclass in receiving any type of pass, controlling it excellent, and holding onto it despite serious pressure or pushing from any kind of player, then moving away with the ball or passing it on. You NEED this in the midfield
He is excellent at combining with other players, and when he isnt trying to hard fancy pancy, he is very good at keeping the ball and finding players in good positions during buildup
He is excellent at running forward with the ball and VERY difficult to move off the ball without fouling. Because of this its utmost important he's played as a cm. Players can make any kind of runs, and pogba buys the time for them to do so while moving up.
 

JuveE46

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,595
Exactly :lol:

The thing is, he is not even being out of order and he gets these reactions lol, but what do we expect from Fr3sh and Zach :D

I mean ofcourse if you prefer countering as we will, its fairly understandable to want Morata to start then because thats his strength unlike Mandzukic. The big croat is the better all around striker for me, hence I generally prefer him starting. But if we not gonna play long balls to him or impose ourselves a bit, its very valid to suggest we should start with a more counter savvy Morata.


The guys formation is another matter tho, complete mess :D But the striker choice of his isnt.
Lol why is it a complete mess? Wtf we got to lose? Ok you're right keep playing 3-5-2 and keep using Italy vs Spain as example 3-5-2 works blah blah..any such comparison is moronic because Spain players are a meter shorter than Italy players were for one and second anyone remember how that match went? Italy barely nullfied Spain..and italy was perfect tactically too...so was that good outcome? Idk people argue it worked great..
I have no argument against playing 3-5-2 except we do NOT have proper wingers for it..some people here even compare CL with the league and say it works fine in the league therefore use it in CL..those people should support rugby instead lol
 

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
Lol why is it a complete mess? Wtf we got to lose? Ok you're right keep playing 3-5-2 and keep using Italy vs Spain as example 3-5-2 works blah blah..any such comparison is moronic because Spain players are s meter shorter than Italy players for one and second anyone remember how that match went? Italy barely nullfied Spain..is that good? Idk people argue it worked great..
Spain was THE undisputed best national team in the world, and over the course of the game, italy was the better team, crushed their offence and had more and better chances.


As i said, you cant copy it. because bayern will play inside forwards and centre forward behind the defence
 

rndmlgnd

Senior Member
Oct 29, 2015
694
More than formation, or selection of players what hurt us the most is inferiority complex our players had in the first hour or so of the game. This Bayern side isn't even that particularly good at pressing as they leave so many gaps behind (unlike 2013 Bayern), while we have more than a few technical and skillful players now who could handle it and exploit the gaps between their lines. You could have seen it on few occasions when we didn't fuck up easy 2-3 meters pass and then managed to pass the ball around more quickly, how easy it was to beat their pressing. IF we enter the return leg with the mindset of the last 30 minutes of Turin's game, I think we can progress.
Exactly, you could see the players respected them too much.

We need to threaten them early if we want to go through.
 

JuveE46

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,595
Pogba thrives as a cm.

He wins alot of duels of any type
He is worldclass in receiving any type of pass, controlling it excellent, and holding onto it despite serious pressure or pushing from any kind of player, then moving away with the ball or passing it on. You NEED this in the midfield
He is excellent at combining with other players, and when he isnt trying to hard fancy pancy, he is very good at keeping the ball and finding players in good positions during buildup
He is excellent at running forward with the ball and VERY difficult to move off the ball without fouling. Because of this its utmost important he's played as a cm. Players can make any kind of runs, and pogba buys the time for them to do so while moving up.
That is all right, he can do all that..but when was the last time you saw him have two long shots in one game for example? He can create a goal from thin air yet we got him guarding the left flank..dont need to remind you we need to score now. Free pogba up let him run at that defence, press early, with his strength and vision he can open up thier box too..we got enough field readers and defenders let our awesome freak loose upon that $hitty defence is all.
 
Jun 6, 2015
11,391
Lol why is it a complete mess? Wtf we got to lose? Ok you're right keep playing 3-5-2 and keep using Italy vs Spain as example 3-5-2 works blah blah..any such comparison is moronic because Spain players are a meter shorter than Italy players were for one and second anyone remember how that match went? Italy barely nullfied Spain..and italy was perfect tactically too...so was that good outcome? Idk people argue it worked great..
I have no argument against playing 3-5-2 except we do NOT have proper wingers for it..some people here even compare CL with the league and say it works fine in the league therefore use it in CL..those people should support rugby instead lol
Lichtseiner, Cuadrado, Evra and Alex Sandro are exactly the kind of "wingers" one should field in a 3-5-2.

We have three basic formations that we are able to play with some familiarity and should absolutely stick with those. Learning a whole new formation with new roles for many players takes months to master and still there would be small nuances that will take even more time.

- - - Updated - - -

That is all right, he can do all that..but when was the last time you saw him have two long shots in one game for example? He can create a goal from thin air yet we got him guarding the left flank..dont need to remind you we need to score now. Free pogba up let him run at that defence, press early, with his strength and vision he can open up thier box too..we got enough field readers and defenders let our awesome freak loose upon that $hitty defence is all.
He pretty much has at least two long shots in every game usually it's more like six nowadays. I have no doubt Pogba would do well higher up the pitch also but his best position is CM where he can have a bigger impact on the game. He has the lungs and the legs to be an attacking threat even when he has defensive responsibilities. Against Bayern in the second half his overall position was more or less what we call an AM but still everybody defends against Bayern even the strikers. There were many times when Mandzukic was covering that same left flank defensively even ending near our own corner flag.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 186)