So you are telling me that this team should play pragmatic till allegri retired
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Massimiliano Allegri (229 Viewers)
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You would have been happy to waste the last years of having the world's best player on your team in the same, predictable, and stale style of play under Allegri? I don't regret having him, but it was becoming evident that we needed a change. His offensive gameplay style was plain awful, he literally could not care less about that phase. All that mattered was the defence. It was just endless horizontal passing waiting for a gap on the wing, never any through balls. There was no heart on the pitch and there was no proper plan to win. He wasn't utilising Dybala properly and Ronaldo was evidently and rightly getting frustrated at the lack of ideas up front. Scraping 1-0 wins was our plan. We won so much because we were miles ahead in terms of quality than any other team in Italy. If you remember rightly, we were 12 points behind one season and granted while he did pull off a victory in the end, he would not have been able to replicate that this year given the progress and improvement in quality these other clubs have made recently. We would be deluded in thinking that bringing him back at this point would salvage this season.
The belief that Allegri could only play pragmatic football is wrong anyway. We played some of the most dominant football in 2015 and even in 2017. What makes Allegri so special however is that, like no other, he plays to the strengths of his squad.
What I am saying is either go all-in and actually get the (world-class) players you need to play this high-pressing football or don't try it. No half measures. Dybala upfront, Ronaldo at the age of 35/36, our midfield, Bonucci at the back, every single one of them will get exposed as proven the last 2 years.
What I am saying is either go all-in and actually get the (world-class) players you need to play this high-pressing football or don't try it. No half measures. Dybala upfront, Ronaldo at the age of 35/36, our midfield, Bonucci at the back, every single one of them will get exposed as proven the last 2 years.
We won Serie A 5 times out of 5, Coppa 4 times out of 5 and made it to the CL final twice. There is nothing to suggest that we wouldn't have kept dominating in Italy with him in charge for years to come.
Let's look at the only attacking stat that really matters, goals scored (in Serie A).
Conte:
2018/2019: 68 goals scored ≈ 1,79 gpg with a gd of +48
2018/2019: 71 goals scored ≈ 1,87 gpg with a gd of +47
2018/2019: 80 goals scored ≈ 2,11 gpg with a gd of +57
Over the whole tenure ≈ 1,92 gpg
Allegri:
2014/2015: 72 goals scored ≈ 1,9 gpg with a gd of +48
2015/2016: 75 goals scored ≈ 1,97 gpg with a gd of +55
2016/2017: 77 goals scored ≈ 2,03 gpg with a gd of +50
2017/2018: 86 goals scored ≈ 2,26 gpg with a gd of +62
2018/2019: 70 goals scored ≈ 1,84 gpg with a gd of +40
Over the whole tenure = 2 gpg
Sarri:
2019/2020: 76 goals scored = 2 gpg with a gd of +33
Pirlo:
2020/21: 29 goals scored (on pace to score ≈ 79) ≈ 2,07 gpg with a gd of +18 (on pace to ≈+49)
There really hasn't been much change in our overall attacking output from season to season. Both Conte and Allegri had one outlierish type of season where we scored slightly more than usual. Under Pirlo we've scored a decent amount of goals but it has come at a cost at the other end of the pitch. Have to add that overall during Covid, games have been slightly higher scoring than normally.
The problem is that for some reason there are people who have very limited view of football. They only understand one type of football and one type of attack. Football is much more complex than that though. You can play in many different ways successfully. Sadly for some the only acceptable way is to play a trillion short passes in lead up to every goal. I'd recommend handball for those people, football isn't for everyone.
Let's look at the only attacking stat that really matters, goals scored (in Serie A).
Conte:
2018/2019: 68 goals scored ≈ 1,79 gpg with a gd of +48
2018/2019: 71 goals scored ≈ 1,87 gpg with a gd of +47
2018/2019: 80 goals scored ≈ 2,11 gpg with a gd of +57
Over the whole tenure ≈ 1,92 gpg
Allegri:
2014/2015: 72 goals scored ≈ 1,9 gpg with a gd of +48
2015/2016: 75 goals scored ≈ 1,97 gpg with a gd of +55
2016/2017: 77 goals scored ≈ 2,03 gpg with a gd of +50
2017/2018: 86 goals scored ≈ 2,26 gpg with a gd of +62
2018/2019: 70 goals scored ≈ 1,84 gpg with a gd of +40
Over the whole tenure = 2 gpg
Sarri:
2019/2020: 76 goals scored = 2 gpg with a gd of +33
Pirlo:
2020/21: 29 goals scored (on pace to score ≈ 79) ≈ 2,07 gpg with a gd of +18 (on pace to ≈+49)
There really hasn't been much change in our overall attacking output from season to season. Both Conte and Allegri had one outlierish type of season where we scored slightly more than usual. Under Pirlo we've scored a decent amount of goals but it has come at a cost at the other end of the pitch. Have to add that overall during Covid, games have been slightly higher scoring than normally.
The problem is that for some reason there are people who have very limited view of football. They only understand one type of football and one type of attack. Football is much more complex than that though. You can play in many different ways successfully. Sadly for some the only acceptable way is to play a trillion short passes in lead up to every goal. I'd recommend handball for those people, football isn't for everyone.
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Good post and I think those numbers really shows how good a coach we had over those years. But isnt the most recent season of ~50 games and the steady deterioration as things went along, the best predictor for how the next games might turn out? Cant wait to see him coach somewhere again, its been too freaking long. He would do a lot better than Pirlo and most other Serie A coaches.
More than anything, it looks like you are describing our performances over the last couple of years. Under Allegri, we were light years ahead of our domestic competitors, were a legit CL contender every single year, and only lost to historically strong sides such as Barca or Real. Fans and management got spoiled over the years and took our achievements for granted and thought that appointing a hipster coach could improve this team. Look at where that brought us. Nothing indicated that we would lose our domination domestically and continue competing in the CL with a couple of additions in midfield.
I am also not buying the stronger competition argument. I've seen some terrible sides this season (some of which we dropped points against). We are competing against an Inter that finished last in a CL group with Shakhtar and BMG. Milan barely made it to the EL. Being in a position where we are now trailing 10 points is an absolute disgrace if you compare our roster to theirs. Under Allegri, the only season that the 2nd placed team finished below 80 points was 14-15. Every other season, the second-placed team finished with 80+ points, with Roma in 16-17 finishing with 87 points and Napoli in 17-18 finishing with 91 points. These are Scudetto winning point totals. Though Inter and Milan are currently on track to hit 90 points, I doubt they'll achieve that. This season we almost dropped as many points as we have in each of our past 6 seasons, and we aren't even half-way through the season. We lost our domination domestically and are no longer relevant in Europe. So all in all I'd say appointing a more "attacking-minded" coach has so far been a pretty failed experiment.
I am also not buying the stronger competition argument. I've seen some terrible sides this season (some of which we dropped points against). We are competing against an Inter that finished last in a CL group with Shakhtar and BMG. Milan barely made it to the EL. Being in a position where we are now trailing 10 points is an absolute disgrace if you compare our roster to theirs. Under Allegri, the only season that the 2nd placed team finished below 80 points was 14-15. Every other season, the second-placed team finished with 80+ points, with Roma in 16-17 finishing with 87 points and Napoli in 17-18 finishing with 91 points. These are Scudetto winning point totals. Though Inter and Milan are currently on track to hit 90 points, I doubt they'll achieve that. This season we almost dropped as many points as we have in each of our past 6 seasons, and we aren't even half-way through the season. We lost our domination domestically and are no longer relevant in Europe. So all in all I'd say appointing a more "attacking-minded" coach has so far been a pretty failed experiment.
Not sure. Even during that last season of his we did well until the turn of the year. It was only in his last 10-15 games that we started to struggle in. That speculation is pretty pointless anyways as we'll never know how things would have went. What we do know for sure is that we won a shit ton of trophies when he was here. The only regret from his time is not being able to win one of those CL finals.
Appointing Sarri and Pirlo were big gambles. The first failed miserably, let's see how the second one goes.
But given that our level of football had been declining in Allegri's last two years, what makes you think we would be significantly better with him now?
Mangerial jobs today have a shelf life, and Allegri was at the end of his at Juve. Just look at Klopp at Dortmund or Pep at Barcelona, or even at City.
Also losing our domination domestically is a bit of a stretch, given that we won the scudetto last year and are still in the hunt this year. Saying we are longer relevant in Europe is an even bigger stretch. Even if it is true, then we only reached the quarterfinals in Allegri's last two seasons and it didn't look we would go any further in the competition with him.
And please don't use Italian sides performance in Europe to suggest how strong or weak they are. Napoli were knocked out in the group stage of the CL during their 90+ points season. Italians teams have been garbage in Europe for a long long time. The competition in Serie A is definitely stronger now than it was 3-4 years ago. Just compare the teams now and then ffs- it's not even close.
Every big team has an off season or two- even Bayern were horrible in 2018-19. Look at every big team in Europe right now- their points per game are way below what they usually are, because the covid schedule makes a big difference. A team that plays every seven days is much fitter, fresher and faster than a team that plays every three days.
Our team was aging and declining, there's no doubt about it. Props to the management for revitalizing it this season with the additions of Chiesa, Mckennie etc.
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I disagree. Refusing to change is why clubs like Man United, Inter, Milan find themselves in the position they are.
But given that our level of football had been declining in Allegri's last two years, what makes you think we would be significantly better with him now?
Mangerial jobs today have a shelf life, and Allegri was at the end of his at Juve. Just look at Klopp at Dortmund or Pep at Barcelona, or even at City.
Also losing our domination domestically is a bit of a stretch, given that we won the scudetto last year and are still in the hunt this year. Saying we are longer relevant in Europe is an even bigger stretch. Even if it is true, then we only reached the quarterfinals in Allegri's last two seasons and it didn't look we would go any further in the competition with him.
And please don't use Italian sides performance in Europe to suggest how strong or weak they are. Napoli were knocked out in the group stage of the CL during their 90+ points season. Italians teams have been garbage in Europe for a long long time. The competition in Serie A is definitely stronger now than it was 3-4 years ago. Just compare the teams now and then ffs- it's not even close.
Every big team has an off season or two- even Bayern were horrible in 2018-19. Look at every big team in Europe right now- their points per game are way below what they usually are, because the covid schedule makes a big difference. A team that plays every seven days is much fitter, fresher and faster than a team that plays every three days.
Our team was aging and declining, there's no doubt about it. Props to the management for revitalizing it this season with the additions of Chiesa, Mckennie etc.
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I disagree. Refusing to change is why clubs like Man United, Inter, Milan find themselves in the position they are.
It's all hypothetical, so I am honestly not sure if there is a point in arguing if you have a different perspective. To me, it's just hard to believe we wouldn't have a higher winning % of 53%, looking at how dominant we were over those 5 years with Allegri. If you are referring to our type of play, I understand. But I also think Allegri could have done wonders with the roster we have today, which is far stronger than any side he had to work with (other than 2015's). I do enjoy our attacking play under Pirlo, but I miss that defensive solidity we had under Allegri, which IMO is fundamental if you want to have CL success.
I think it's a big stretch to claim we regressed in his last two years. We finished 17/18 with 95 points and got eliminated in the CL in a very controversial tie against arguably one of the best teams ever. That year, Napoli (as you said) finished with 91 points and I still think that team was the biggest threat we faced over the last decade, including Inter or Milan this year. Even in Allegri's last season, we finished with 90 points, despite dropping points in 5 of our last 6 games after our elimination against Ajax. Wasn't it for a demoralized squad we would have again finished somewhere around the 100 point total. I think it's far-fetched to call the QF our plateau, especially after we beat Atletico and were considered by many one of the top 2 teams left in the competition until things obviously went horribly wrong against Ajax. All this with an ever-aging, injury-prone squad that almost every year got stripped of at least 1 key player. I think this is a remarkable achievement and should definitely not be taken for granted. IMO, Allegri should have been given the benefit of the doubt.
Could he have done more attacking wise in his last season here? Maybe. But don't forget that he had to work with a midfield that couldn't score more than 5 goals in a season, Mandzukic that slowly but surely was regressing, and Dybala who had mood swings and couldn't get his shit together and finished the season with a mere 5 goals. Any production in the attack came solely from Ronaldo. We're here 1.5 years later and Mandzukic is retired and Dybala has again proved how incredibly on-and-off he can be. I don't think it's fair to blame this entirely on Allegri.
Though I don't want to use other big teams as a benchmark, I agree that COVID makes a big difference. However, a lot of these teams regressed over the last couple of years as well and are not as dominant as they were before (look at Barca/Real, Liverpool/City). I understand Pirlo didn't have a summer to prepare but we are almost 5 months in the season so I expect some sort of consistency now. Having said all of that, I do like the revitalization we had over the summer and the direction we're heading. It was much needed.
I think it's a big stretch to claim we regressed in his last two years. We finished 17/18 with 95 points and got eliminated in the CL in a very controversial tie against arguably one of the best teams ever. That year, Napoli (as you said) finished with 91 points and I still think that team was the biggest threat we faced over the last decade, including Inter or Milan this year. Even in Allegri's last season, we finished with 90 points, despite dropping points in 5 of our last 6 games after our elimination against Ajax. Wasn't it for a demoralized squad we would have again finished somewhere around the 100 point total. I think it's far-fetched to call the QF our plateau, especially after we beat Atletico and were considered by many one of the top 2 teams left in the competition until things obviously went horribly wrong against Ajax. All this with an ever-aging, injury-prone squad that almost every year got stripped of at least 1 key player. I think this is a remarkable achievement and should definitely not be taken for granted. IMO, Allegri should have been given the benefit of the doubt.
Could he have done more attacking wise in his last season here? Maybe. But don't forget that he had to work with a midfield that couldn't score more than 5 goals in a season, Mandzukic that slowly but surely was regressing, and Dybala who had mood swings and couldn't get his shit together and finished the season with a mere 5 goals. Any production in the attack came solely from Ronaldo. We're here 1.5 years later and Mandzukic is retired and Dybala has again proved how incredibly on-and-off he can be. I don't think it's fair to blame this entirely on Allegri.
Though I don't want to use other big teams as a benchmark, I agree that COVID makes a big difference. However, a lot of these teams regressed over the last couple of years as well and are not as dominant as they were before (look at Barca/Real, Liverpool/City). I understand Pirlo didn't have a summer to prepare but we are almost 5 months in the season so I expect some sort of consistency now. Having said all of that, I do like the revitalization we had over the summer and the direction we're heading. It was much needed.
No, Milan found themselves in difficult position because Berlusconi stopped investing. He lost proceeding for tax evasion and had to settle 100s of millions in fines. Juventus would be in the same or worse state if Exor didnt make 2-3 large share subscriptions, each time pumping in few hundred millions into our accounts. And in addition we had a credit line for few hundred million more in case we needed. Italian football clubs are bottomless pit, ROI is nonexistent. So Milan's state has nothing to do with sticking with the same manager. In fact since they fired Allegri, the last coach to win them title, they became gradually worse but as Ive stated this was money related issue.
Man united had Feguson for 2 decades and it was their most succesful period in their history.
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Since we dont have money related issue, at least when it comes to players transfers, while we could argue how sound our overall strategy is and whether it is sensible to spend 70% of income on salaries, Id attribute our decline to firing one of the most succesful managers in our history. After winning 5th title in a row, Max gets the boot. Then we hire well known loser and play even worse brand of football than in Max's last season. Then out of desperation we hire a rookie. I see a connection here between our gradual decline and change of managers.
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Dybala has been an issue over the last 3 years. His game lacks consistency.
Allegri requested specific type of players, as he grew tired of thinkering every season because managment would dismantle his team over the summer. He wanted to have bigger influence on transfer campaign. They thought differently, thus they parted ways. But are we a better team now then 2 seasons ago? Does anyone consider us CL favorites? How are we doing in Italy?
Man united had Feguson for 2 decades and it was their most succesful period in their history.
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Since we dont have money related issue, at least when it comes to players transfers, while we could argue how sound our overall strategy is and whether it is sensible to spend 70% of income on salaries, Id attribute our decline to firing one of the most succesful managers in our history. After winning 5th title in a row, Max gets the boot. Then we hire well known loser and play even worse brand of football than in Max's last season. Then out of desperation we hire a rookie. I see a connection here between our gradual decline and change of managers.
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Dybala has been an issue over the last 3 years. His game lacks consistency.
Allegri requested specific type of players, as he grew tired of thinkering every season because managment would dismantle his team over the summer. He wanted to have bigger influence on transfer campaign. They thought differently, thus they parted ways. But are we a better team now then 2 seasons ago? Does anyone consider us CL favorites? How are we doing in Italy?
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I will miss him forever.
