Leonardo Bonucci (91 Viewers)

[Suns]

Quoted to show you that you can also attack people personally, when you lose it. And we have lost it. It's great to talk football, and whether you know it or not, I have always respected you even though I have barely involved in discussing things with you. Never called you a troll, never approved of people grouping up to mock you, never enjoyed tldr comments and gifs because go away if you don't want to read. I am totally aware that you love Juve and what you say is what you see, but as a friend, even if you see me a hater, an enemy, I don't like your way of seeing things. It's not about Bonucci or his looks, it's about you. You are never happy, you can't celebrate. This is reason enough for me to point it out. Perhaps you hadn't noticed but I had told you this before too, that it's worrying that nothing can make you happy.

As for people, even if I strongly disagree with the way they troll you, it's not a coincidence that the majority react similarly to your posts. It's partly a herd behavior, everyone is mocking him so am I, but instead of pointing your finger at them for not properly countering your arguments, have you ever asked yourself why they treat you this way? Whenever we are pissed about a bad result, you are there (at the wrong time) to remind us that you had seen it coming all along, that you knew, that time has now proven you right. Then, despite the glorious season the team had, even though you never expected them to do this well and achieve this much, even though you were wrong when dissing the board for most of their decisions at the beginning of the season, people expect you to be humble enough to admit it, you, who have always been there for us when the things hadn't worked well for the team, to remind us that "I had told you".



Everyone had the same suspicions about Bonucci, myself included. I thought he improved his game after the horrible game he had against Milan. For a young player like him who had been always subject to the fans' criticism, it was surprising to see how he reacted. He had some very good performances in our final run to win the Scudetto and he showed huge potential. Was one of the best players of the Azzurri in the Euros.

We were all worried about the defense before the season started. We ended up with the least conceded goals. The difference between you and the rest is that we were excited and happy to be proven wrong, you not much so. Even worse, you still claimed that you were right with your predictions.



Quoted to show you that you can also attack people personally, when you lose it.



I doubt anyone sees him as a reliable defender, not yet. No player was criticized as much he was (perhaps except for Borriello), but others can give credit where credit is due. You can't.

I can't see the video.



So did EVERYONE else. They can see the improvements too and it's sad that you can't.

Weren't you critical of a defense of Barzagli - Chiellini - Bonucci before the season started? Did you ever admit that you were wrong with your previous evaluations?



Do you not think that Conte can see these things at least as good as you? Why should he try to cover the defense with his tactics and not with the players he can ask the board to buy him?

Why should I focus on the first 6-7 games when everything was only about to click in a team with a new coach, new look, new players? We won the title and we had a very good defense. Of ocurse we'd all love to see our defense being strengthened even more but I personally try to fix the team's painfully obvious problems in attack, looking for someone who can finish the numerous chances we can create. The priority, imo, lies in where that functioned least: Juve need a goalscorer. It's probably a coincidence but the board and the coach seem to have similar concerns.



Chiellini's presence? I'm crazy about him but he was responsible for most of the blunders in the Azzurri defense. Bonucci had an overall better tournament. If Chiellini's presence can make Bonucci perform better than Chiellini himself, I'd think perhaps we've established the argument on a false premise.



Nothing is wrong with it. I personally can walk away when I don't agree with someone's opinion about something but there are two things I have problems with: First people who take pride in predicting the team's failures while refusing to give credit where it is due. Second people who are too arrogant to admit they were wrong.



Oh dear, is this even possible? How can you avoid an unfortunate scenario with predicting it?



Never meant to insult you. I find it extremely sad that after a great tournament Bonucci had you come here to say you were right that he was a weak defender.



Quoted to show you that you can also attack people personally, when you lose it.

[Not that I disagree with what you say.]



Only because I haven't discussed things directly with you doesn't mean I don't know your stance. I've been a member here for many years and I sure have read more than I write. I like you as a member and I consider you a friend, I never even intended my post to be about Bonucci. It was about you and what people find annoying about you. You can't change how people treat you but you can change your way of seeing things. Not to please people, but because it sucks to be pessimistic about everything and everyone.



That too, 100% true. I find it as bad.



Agreed with everything you said there except that I haven't seen you giving credit where it's due. If you had, believe me, you wouldn't have drawn this much of negative reactions to your posts.

 

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[Trequartista]

Look how he played the "girls shouldn't talk football" card

SO true

 

[dann10]

So hard to see him like this. FORZA LEO!

jeez that's hard to look at

 

[deggen10]

I'm glad I turned off after the 3rd goal. Kind of embarrassing to see grown men cry.

 

[Klovn]

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

Look how he played the "girls shouldn't talk football" card

the typical misogynistic Greek!

 

[ALC]

jeez that's hard to look at

His boner?

 

[sallyinzaghi]

much respect to leo. he had a fantastic tournament, played so well, and to cry that much must be an indication of how badly he wanted to win. there's the CL next season for you to play in for some barca revenge

 

[Klovn]

He'll settle down Messi next year, and stop the hype about that midget.

 

[Cronios]

1- whether you know it or not, I have always respected you even though I have barely involved in discussing things with you. Never called you a troll, never approved of people grouping up to mock you, never enjoyed tldr comments and gifs because go away if you don't want to read.

2- I am totally aware that you love Juve and what you say is what you see, but as a friend, even if you see me a hater, an enemy, I don't like your way of seeing things. It's not about Bonucci or his looks, it's about you. You are never happy, you can't celebrate. This is reason enough for me to point it out. Perhaps you hadn't noticed but I had told you this before too, that it's worrying that nothing can make you happy.

3- As for people, even if I strongly disagree with the way they troll you, it's not a coincidence that the majority react similarly to your posts. It's partly a herd behavior, everyone is mocking him so am I, but instead of pointing your finger at them for not properly countering your arguments, have you ever asked yourself why they treat you this way? Whenever we are pissed about a bad result, you are there (at the wrong time) to remind us that you had seen it coming all along, that you knew, that time has now proven you right. Then, despite the glorious season the team had, even though you never expected them to do this well and achieve this much, even though you were wrong when dissing the board for most of their decisions at the beginning of the season, people expect you to be humble enough to admit it, you, who have always been there for us when the things hadn't worked well for the team, to remind us that "I had told you".

4- Everyone had the same suspicions about Bonucci, myself included. I thought he improved his game after the horrible game he had against Milan. For a young player like him who had been always subject to the fans' criticism, it was surprising to see how he reacted. He had some very good performances in our final run to win the Scudetto and he showed huge potential. Was one of the best players of the Azzurri in the Euros.

5- We were all worried about the defense before the season started. We ended up with the least conceded goals. The difference between you and the rest is that we were excited and happy to be proven wrong, you not much so. Even worse, you still claimed that you were right with your predictions.



6- I doubt anyone sees him as a reliable defender, not yet. No player was criticized as much he was (perhaps except for Borriello), but others can give credit where credit is due. You can't.
I can't see the video. They can see the improvements too and it's sad that you can't.

7- Weren't you critical of a defense of Barzagli - Chiellini - Bonucci before the season started? Did you ever admit that you were wrong with your previous evaluations? Never meant to insult you. I find it extremely sad that after a great tournament Bonucci had you come here to say you were right that he was a weak defender.


8- Do you not think that Conte can see these things at least as good as you? Why should he try to cover the defense with his tactics and not with the players he can ask the board to buy him?

9- Why should I focus on the first 6-7 games when everything was only about to click in a team with a new coach, new look, new players? We won the title and we had a very good defense. Of ocurse we'd all love to see our defense being strengthened even more but I personally try to fix the team's painfully obvious problems in attack, looking for someone who can finish the numerous chances we can create. The priority, imo, lies in where that functioned least: Juve need a goalscorer. It's probably a coincidence but the board and the coach seem to have similar concerns.



10- Chiellini's presence? I'm crazy about him but he was responsible for most of the blunders in the Azzurri defense. Bonucci had an overall better tournament. If Chiellini's presence can make Bonucci perform better than Chiellini himself, I'd think perhaps we've established the argument on a false premise.



11- Nothing is wrong with it. I personally can walk away when I don't agree with someone's opinion about something but there are two things I have problems with: First people who take pride in predicting the team's failures while refusing to give credit where it is due.
Second people who are too arrogant to admit they were wrong.
Agreed with everything you said there except that I haven't seen you giving credit where it's due. If you had, believe me, you wouldn't have drawn this much of negative reactions to your posts.



12- Oh dear, is this even possible? How can you avoid an unfortunate scenario with predicting it?



13- Only because I haven't discussed things directly with you doesn't mean I don't know your stance. I've been a member here for many years and I sure have read more than I write. I like you as a member and I consider you a friend, I never even intended my post to be about Bonucci. It was about you and what people find annoying about you. You can't change how people treat you but you can change your way of seeing things. Not to please people, but because it sucks to be pessimistic about everything and everyone.

Sorry for taking that long, it wasnt out of disrespect, but hard work and some health issues kept me a way a few days.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post with honesty and seriousness.
For that i feel obliged to reply and also because i consider you a mature member, wothing the effort
I ll use a tablet for this, so pardon me for replying in a numerical way.

1-Thank you i appreciate that, i also appreciated you and have had great expectations
and this when one can be more dissapointed the most...

2- IMHO it should not be about, it should only about Juve, i dont come here to talk about me, but about Juve.
Real life gives me all the popularity and friends my time allows me to have, so i dont seek more here.
Not that i dismiss the chance, but i wont set it as a priority.
My free time is very limited, so when i join these forums, i want to talk about Juve, not me, my arguments and attention always target Juve matters.
But the consistent flaming from the same 4-6 trolls and the tolerance shown by the mod team, force me to defend my self, occasionally
(though i reckon its impossible to reason with such... beasts...)

3- PPl are always delusional and always hope for the best and always choose to ignore the sad parts of life.
But there is a moment, when we have to deal with them, decisively and sometimes, by doing so, we get a better end result, if its possible...
It is my my role, as a realist to play my role in the forums and balance the over-optimism with a touch of realism.
It is my profession and life role, to be objective and call it as i see it and believe me, so such a task does not consumes me.
I feel the obligation to warn and keep the balance and since this is an open forum, i dont see why a voice of reason could be harmful.
We used to have more forumers like my self and the conversations were more constructive imho...

4- Unfortunately, not everyone, even when we were conceiving goal after goal from his blunders ppl were defending his mediocrity.
He was obviously our weak point that was draging down our team and they wanted our team to suffer more, just to keep him.
IMO, no player should be above the team, we should not sacrifice our performances and lose points to train mediocre players.
This is a task for Pescara, not a title challenger.
This adds an uneeded handicap that is making our efforts to be more competitive all the more difficult.
Luckily for us, our direct adversaries have such handicaps as well.
Seria A is not as competitive as it was and the eyes of the tiger Conte gave us were more important than the handicaps called Bonucci and Borriello, but make no mistake, still that doesnt means that they are not handicaps!!

If Lucio and Cavani were on their boots, we would be champions 2-3 months ago...

5- For 6 consecutive seasons, we have been failing because we are not investing on the defense, particularly on foreigners who can raise the bar in acceptable levels.
Since Licht was anounced i was jubilant.
I used to like Barzagli, but as he lost form, i was uncertain, good for us that he worked out well, but the odds were against us,
there is a reason why some player cost fortunes and why some are cheap free.
We are systematically avoiding to invest on our weakest line. This is a mistake and 6 years of watching this should be enough even for the dumbest ppl to comprehend it.
Thats why i consider the acquisition of Licht the best transfer Marotta has ever done, i was sure about it, even before Licht wore our jersey.
Zeglier was a mistake, giving away Sorensen another. For both of these issues history have proved me correct, as Zeglier never got to play a game and Sorensen was missed in some injury/suspension plagued games.

Lucky us though, our super midfield was competent enough to keep the possession and the control of the game against most of our opponents and Buffon had a great season.Therefore, our defensive holes, were not as obvious as they should and inexperienced eye might miss the fact, that we had a good defensive record, not because of the quality of our defenders, but because of our midfield and possession football!

It is not my fault that ppl lack fundamental footbal knowledge to aknowledge that.
So considering our defense, i insisted that we need to stregthen it, Conte also has asked the same from day one.
From day one he has changed half of our defense and set up our defense to protect her.
This was also a reason he demandeed from our CMs and winger/wingbacks to contribute at defending.
Rending players like Krasic and Elia useless.
A sacrifice to mask our defense, a compromise i cannot and will not pretend i dont see.
Conte is a very gifted coach, i didnt know, i hoped for it, but i didnt know, i realised that after 2-3 friendlies.
The man can feels our team and adjust it to our needs.
He did the best he could and i am convinced that with better tools, he can achieve even better things.
If the local championship remains in this state, we wont have to step up, but why not step up?
We were always the team to set the bar in serie A and improve the whole championship and the NT as well.
And as we will return in Europe, we must be as competitive as we can be.
So, IMO we must not sit back and enjoy being the one eye king in the land of blind men, but keep trying to reach the level of competitivity we once had...
So for that purpose, i hope that we improve the best we can and easiest way to maximise this effort, is by upgrading your weakest part!

6- They do, for some being Italian is enough, they care more at having him around and suffer, sacrifice our performance to improve him, as long as their favorite boy is wearing our jersey. Some ppl were considering Molinaro reliable, if you remember.
I considered him a mistake and still do. In time he will be Juve material, as he is has more potential than Legro and Legro managed to become decent. But this time comes for most of the CB at their most productive age, 28-34, i m convinced that with the accumulated experience, Bonucci will be a top class CB by then. But until then, we should have a decent alternative.
I never send that he is useless and should be sold, but he is not Juve material just yet and this has been proved time and time again, when the injuries, suspension and any other reason that takes away the shield that is protecting him, fades away, then he is exsposed and his blunders become more obvious and often.
I merely say that we should have an option to avoid that, if Lucio was a couple of years younger, it would be perfect!

7- Again, it was not because of Bonucci's quality our defense did well, the boy barely made a couple of succesfull taclins the whole season long. There were other factors around him that caused that. And the ones who ignores that, gives no credit to them, in my eyes this is worse and even more disgraceful than just turning a bling eye to Bonucci;s mistakes that costed us more than 15 points this season...
Some boys made wonders out there to make up for the shortcomings of Bonucci and Borriello, it a disgrace not to aknowledge that, give credit to them, for making up, despite the handicap and praise the ones who were dragging us low...
So again i feel obliged to criticise the ones who i believe that are our weakest points. No matter if we win or not, there is always space for improvement.
My views and stance are consistent, but in some moments there are much more visible and have a much greater impact.
When i criticise Bonucci in wins, ppl just choose to ignore me, but make no mistake, i was there and it is not my fault that fewer ppl noticed, the ones who care enough about team, did so. And for them, i feel the obligation to make this point...



8- Many reasons:
-The board has imposed some rules to his contract, he must obey them, he must work with what he has, he has repeated those words when we hired him. This was the prime reason we bought him, not that we really believed in him...
-He must respect our ItalJuve project, which used to be a priority up until now and esp after the Diego fiasko...
-He has to do with Marotta, the man is very limited negotiator, he can negotiate in a level good enough to buy priority targets.
He overpays for our targets and sells off our players.
Noone respects him, he is not quite potent outside Italy, his best transfers were opportunity targets, that happen to fly by his targets.
He fails with great consistency to deliver were we suffer the most.
-The board, the nationalists that should be kept at balance, etc etc
Conte has to compromise and do what he can with the players at hand, he asked for defenders before, but Marotta fail to get any, despite the claims that he was trying until the very last day of the transfer window...

9- Because its easier to better understand the problrm at hand, this is how it all started, this is why Conte had to make the choice he did and the adjustments he made.
Being such a formidable coach, he was bound to adapt and find the way considering the tools at hand, even if some of them are more of a handicap.
Judging by the result will not help you reach into safe conclusions, you must consider were we started from and how we reached here.
Personally i was here all the way and i have explained in great detail why and how, so everyone who cared enough, realizes what i mean...
The rest are just the common fans who will cheer when we win and boo when we lose.
I for one can be jubilant from what i see, even at dissapointing draws/loses or dissapointing even after victories, because i see the bug pictures and mostly care about what happens in the long run...
Each fan to his approach, i respect every approach and understand that not can care enough to worry about the future...


10- Yes i agree that Chiellini has had a bad year and Bonucci a better year, BUT for their standards!!!
Since Chiello is many, many classes above Bonucci, even in a bad day, he usually has a better overall more positive end result.
Bonucci lacks the ability to tackle, which is unacceptable for a defender, let alone a CB, let alone one who aspires of becoming a great one.
He also lacks tactical awareness, so he often makes mistakes on critical moments in offside traps and last man marking.
Being a CB means that just one such mistake, is enough for your team to concede and lose the game or draw at best.

Bonucci tried to avoid being there, as Barzagli and Chiello are more experienced, they jump first to those difficult situations and this is how they protect Bonucci, when Chiellini makes a mistakes, he takes the blame for Bonucci, when Bonucci doesnt makes a mistake, it simply means that he wasnt there, not that he wouldnt make it See the difference?
Positive contributions, like clearing the ball in difficult situations, dipossesing classy forwards or marking them in a way that blocks them decisevly are very very rare for Bonucci, this is how a CB makes a positive contribution.
And Bonucci offers pretty much nada dere...
And when one of Barza and Chiello arent there and we have to rely on Bonucci, the mistakes multiply, this is when he is exposed to show his true value, this is when its visible even for the unexperienced or caring eye to easily make a safer judgement.

So after weeks and weeks of hyping him for doing nothing, you expect me to remain silent when the time to prove his worth surfaced and yet again he has failed miserably?
And why? Because my haters will find an opportunity to bash me and his blind supporters will be more sore and take it personally.
Thanks but no thanks, as i was there and pointing my view at his good moments, when the only thing that mattered was the clean sheet, i ll be here to point out his mistakes even at the moments we have conceded 4... most of them because we had to rely on Bonucci, because our midfield could not take away the pressure and because Chiello was out injured.
Of course it doesnt mean that Bonucci could have turned thew game by himself, but he could bring up a better performance, unfortunately he is that limited though...

11- But i give credit where is due and it is not my fault that it is not always noticed, sometimes it is, other it is not.
As i dont care about forum popularity, i dont make a special matter about it, but when i feel that i must give credit, i do it and with arguments that i know that can be used against in the future.
I dont hesitate, but in some moments, like this one and esp to Borriello, i dont give credit because as i have explained, i consider it to be a disgrace to the ones who make up for the the ones i consider handicaps.

I believe that in a victory, there can be a bad performer and in a defeat, there can be a good performer.
I wont hesitate to give credit to the good performer despite the loss, as i wont hesitate to criticise the bad performer, despite the win.
I dont rate by the result alone, i take notice of the whole picture, the details most of the ppl skip, this is also a part of my job
and again i feel obliged to point it out as i see it, without caring about my popularity, i consider it irrelevant as the point in this forum is not me, but Juve...

I consider it unacceptable to turn my views on our team, into a personal matter, it is utter stupidity IMO and unfortunately it happens way too often. Some members consider this place their playground, they think that they own the place, that they control it and when they see a counterargument that goes against their opinion, they get enraged.

In lack of arguments, they attack the forumer, not the argument, if the forum was properly moderated, this trolling would be contained, but unfortunately it isnt. Your efforts, good or ill intended, as it was meant for personal use and was irrelevant of the player and my arguments, should have stayed in a personal level, simply by pm-ing me.
This should be the case for my haters as well We should not derail the thread and the discussion with our views about the posters.
Esp considering the current situation, were the trolls are running rampant and only want an excuse to perform their daily role.

If you take a close look, to the ones who replay to my post with personal insults and no content, you will notice that it is the same core of 4-8 posters. They use this tactique with consistency vs other forum members too.
This is a part of the forum popularity games.
There also are other groups, who react with them and there are some certain bonds among them. These bonds define their behavior as well.
Sometimes for being cool and wise they have to agree or disagree with things they dont really comprehend, aprove or care about.
Typical herd behavior, it can be confirmed by tracking down certain members and take notice of their behavior.

The professioanl trolls that usually attack them, mostly have accounts that consists of one liners with falme mostly, they rarely express an opinion, they just attack other forumers.
I dont know how our mod teams handle and it is not my job, but they should contain them in a way that they should not derail football related threads with the consistency they do. I believe you had good intentions, by your initial posts helped the cause of trolling, after reading my posts carefully, i hope that you will understand what i mean and dont take this personally.
I ve also noticed that you love Juve and this place more than you thing, more than DP's or Gigi's looks,
when i said that, i did not have the intention to insult you, but ti ambition you to proove that it wasnt the case and i believe that with this post you have proved that and therefore i m pleased!!

12- But trying to do smth about it? Def not by ignoring it though...

13- I know, and i also know that sometimes i do sound pessimistic, but i am not, i believe that the right stance for most of the ppl is to be positive, but some of us have to be realists, it is manadatory for the common good.
Either be public health, the balance of the society or the micro-world of an open forum. The realists ought to have a place there and sometimes the pessimists have a relative importance to remind us how far we are standing above the clouds.

I tell you a couple of examples.
Since Secco, for many reasons i have explained in great detail, i said kept claiming that considering the situation in our team, i beleive that we will rank from places 2-7.
Thats was me trying to be objective, as i saw a great gap from the top teams and beleived that we can do better than the average ones.
A pessimist would claim that we would rank in the lower half, there is world of difference there.
And the majority of the forum, the day dreamers, thought we would be title contenders each and every year since our return to serie A.

My haters, in order to defame and present me a pessimist, made the worst predicitions and tried to present my views as such, with labels, like we will be relaagtions battlers and that we are doomed. simply because i presented my arguments of why i believe that at least for the next five years we wont do any better than that and at best, we will win a title/decade.
6 years after ranking from 2-7 should i fell pleased, that my prediction was accurate??
Some ppl would, because for some ppl their popularity here matters more than Juve, but not for me!!

I dont feel any kind of satisfaction through our suffering, only a twisted mind could have conceived such a though.
But as a parent that feels obliged to warns his child, i also feel obliged after watching closely the triade for years running this place, that if we dont change our strategy, we are destined to fail.

WTF should i do, embrace it?? Ignore it?? Sorry, but i cant, i wont, i will never do it, i love Juve waaaay to much to ignore or embrace mediocrity, i dont care if ppl will go mad at me if i burst their bubble, i feel obliged to tell them where we are really standing.

A month ago, AA in his interview has admitted that many mistakes were made and pretty much repeated the basic points of my criticism of the past 7 years. As any other Juventino, i want to believe, i want to see us taking the right path again, in the past 2 years i see many positive signs, but among with them some bad as well.
Thankfully the good signs are now more, i am gratefull an di have repeatdly expressed my gratitude and gave credit were it was due,
it is not my fault, that it was skipped between the swarm of over optimistic wishfull thinking.
I was just happy to join my voices with them and by as one.

But as i still see some of our mistakes that keep repeating, i will not ignore them or embrace them.
I filter out the bad parts and embrace the good ones.
For the 8th consecutive time, we have invested the greatest part of our budget on CMs and SS and yet again brought a free defender, no matter what will happen, imo this is a mistake. This is a pattern that keeps repeating and nevers seems to stop.
In the long run, we remain stacked up in those certain places and weak at the ones we ignore...
I agree that for this year the priority should have been the CF, as i have been pointing out the whole year and even the years before.
And a LB after that, as Chiello is needed in the center and DC is not quite reliable and a 4th CB at the same level to Bonucci at least, since we dont have any coverage at all, when we use a 3 man defense, in case just one of our 3 starters gets injured suspended.
And yet we have comitted 45mil on 2CMs and a SS...

I felt the obligation to remind that we suffered from Bonucci's mistakes quite a lot this year and the possibility of losing one of Chiellini or Barzagli in an important match is always out there, exactly as it happened in this final.
I take no satisfaction of watching us or Italy losing finals and important games, that exactly the reason i keep repeating this,
when the majority of the forumers craves for Jovetic and more other dribblers, instead of the CF and CB, i feel that we need above him.

Thankfully the one who is in charge this year knows his football and noticed that...

 

[Ken]

Now I know why the forums went down for a while.

 

[Martin]

 

[Hængebøffer]

 

[j0ker]

Holy fuckin' shit.

That post must have broken the record.

 

[Albo]

Sorry for taking that long, it wasnt out of disrespect, but hard work and some health issues kept me a way a few days.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post with honesty and seriousness.
For that i feel obliged to reply and also because i consider you a mature member, wothing the effort
I ll use a tablet for this, so pardon me for replying in a numerical way.

1-Thank you i appreciate that, i also appreciated you and have had great expectations
and this when one can be more dissapointed the most...

2- IMHO it should not be about, it should only about Juve, i dont come here to talk about me, but about Juve.
Real life gives me all the popularity and friends my time allows me to have, so i dont seek more here.
Not that i dismiss the chance, but i wont set it as a priority.
My free time is very limited, so when i join these forums, i want to talk about Juve, not me, my arguments and attention always target Juve matters.
But the consistent flaming from the same 4-6 trolls and the tolerance shown by the mod team, force me to defend my self, occasionally
(though i reckon its impossible to reason with such... beasts...)

3- PPl are always delusional and always hope for the best and always choose to ignore the sad parts of life.
But there is a moment, when we have to deal with them, decisively and sometimes, by doing so, we get a better end result, if its possible...
It is my my role, as a realist to play my role in the forums and balance the over-optimism with a touch of realism.
It is my profession and life role, to be objective and call it as i see it and believe me, so such a task does not consumes me.
I feel the obligation to warn and keep the balance and since this is an open forum, i dont see why a voice of reason could be harmful.
We used to have more forumers like my self and the conversations were more constructive imho...

4- Unfortunately, not everyone, even when we were conceiving goal after goal from his blunders ppl were defending his mediocrity.
He was obviously our weak point that was draging down our team and they wanted our team to suffer more, just to keep him.
IMO, no player should be above the team, we should not sacrifice our performances and lose points to train mediocre players.
This is a task for Pescara, not a title challenger.
This adds an uneeded handicap that is making our efforts to be more competitive all the more difficult.
Luckily for us, our direct adversaries have such handicaps as well.
Seria A is not as competitive as it was and the eyes of the tiger Conte gave us were more important than the handicaps called Bonucci and Borriello, but make no mistake, still that doesnt means that they are not handicaps!!

If Lucio and Cavani were on their boots, we would be champions 2-3 months ago...

5- For 6 consecutive seasons, we have been failing because we are not investing on the defense, particularly on foreigners who can raise the bar in acceptable levels.
Since Licht was anounced i was jubilant.
I used to like Barzagli, but as he lost form, i was uncertain, good for us that he worked out well, but the odds were against us,
there is a reason why some player cost fortunes and why some are cheap free.
We are systematically avoiding to invest on our weakest line. This is a mistake and 6 years of watching this should be enough even for the dumbest ppl to comprehend it.
Thats why i consider the acquisition of Licht the best transfer Marotta has ever done, i was sure about it, even before Licht wore our jersey.
Zeglier was a mistake, giving away Sorensen another. For both of these issues history have proved me correct, as Zeglier never got to play a game and Sorensen was missed in some injury/suspension plagued games.

Lucky us though, our super midfield was competent enough to keep the possession and the control of the game against most of our opponents and Buffon had a great season.Therefore, our defensive holes, were not as obvious as they should and inexperienced eye might miss the fact, that we had a good defensive record, not because of the quality of our defenders, but because of our midfield and possession football!

It is not my fault that ppl lack fundamental footbal knowledge to aknowledge that.
So considering our defense, i insisted that we need to stregthen it, Conte also has asked the same from day one.
From day one he has changed half of our defense and set up our defense to protect her.
This was also a reason he demandeed from our CMs and winger/wingbacks to contribute at defending.
Rending players like Krasic and Elia useless.
A sacrifice to mask our defense, a compromise i cannot and will not pretend i dont see.
Conte is a very gifted coach, i didnt know, i hoped for it, but i didnt know, i realised that after 2-3 friendlies.
The man can feels our team and adjust it to our needs.
He did the best he could and i am convinced that with better tools, he can achieve even better things.
If the local championship remains in this state, we wont have to step up, but why not step up?
We were always the team to set the bar in serie A and improve the whole championship and the NT as well.
And as we will return in Europe, we must be as competitive as we can be.
So, IMO we must not sit back and enjoy being the one eye king in the land of blind men, but keep trying to reach the level of competitivity we once had...
So for that purpose, i hope that we improve the best we can and easiest way to maximise this effort, is by upgrading your weakest part!

6- They do, for some being Italian is enough, they care more at having him around and suffer, sacrifice our performance to improve him, as long as their favorite boy is wearing our jersey. Some ppl were considering Molinaro reliable, if you remember.
I considered him a mistake and still do. In time he will be Juve material, as he is has more potential than Legro and Legro managed to become decent. But this time comes for most of the CB at their most productive age, 28-34, i m convinced that with the accumulated experience, Bonucci will be a top class CB by then. But until then, we should have a decent alternative.
I never send that he is useless and should be sold, but he is not Juve material just yet and this has been proved time and time again, when the injuries, suspension and any other reason that takes away the shield that is protecting him, fades away, then he is exsposed and his blunders become more obvious and often.
I merely say that we should have an option to avoid that, if Lucio was a couple of years younger, it would be perfect!

7- Again, it was not because of Bonucci's quality our defense did well, the boy barely made a couple of succesfull taclins the whole season long. There were other factors around him that caused that. And the ones who ignores that, gives no credit to them, in my eyes this is worse and even more disgraceful than just turning a bling eye to Bonucci;s mistakes that costed us more than 15 points this season...
Some boys made wonders out there to make up for the shortcomings of Bonucci and Borriello, it a disgrace not to aknowledge that, give credit to them, for making up, despite the handicap and praise the ones who were dragging us low...
So again i feel obliged to criticise the ones who i believe that are our weakest points. No matter if we win or not, there is always space for improvement.
My views and stance are consistent, but in some moments there are much more visible and have a much greater impact.
When i criticise Bonucci in wins, ppl just choose to ignore me, but make no mistake, i was there and it is not my fault that fewer ppl noticed, the ones who care enough about team, did so. And for them, i feel the obligation to make this point...



8- Many reasons:
-The board has imposed some rules to his contract, he must obey them, he must work with what he has, he has repeated those words when we hired him. This was the prime reason we bought him, not that we really believed in him...
-He must respect our ItalJuve project, which used to be a priority up until now and esp after the Diego fiasko...
-He has to do with Marotta, the man is very limited negotiator, he can negotiate in a level good enough to buy priority targets.
He overpays for our targets and sells off our players.
Noone respects him, he is not quite potent outside Italy, his best transfers were opportunity targets, that happen to fly by his targets.
He fails with great consistency to deliver were we suffer the most.
-The board, the nationalists that should be kept at balance, etc etc
Conte has to compromise and do what he can with the players at hand, he asked for defenders before, but Marotta fail to get any, despite the claims that he was trying until the very last day of the transfer window...

9- Because its easier to better understand the problrm at hand, this is how it all started, this is why Conte had to make the choice he did and the adjustments he made.
Being such a formidable coach, he was bound to adapt and find the way considering the tools at hand, even if some of them are more of a handicap.
Judging by the result will not help you reach into safe conclusions, you must consider were we started from and how we reached here.
Personally i was here all the way and i have explained in great detail why and how, so everyone who cared enough, realizes what i mean...
The rest are just the common fans who will cheer when we win and boo when we lose.
I for one can be jubilant from what i see, even at dissapointing draws/loses or dissapointing even after victories, because i see the bug pictures and mostly care about what happens in the long run...
Each fan to his approach, i respect every approach and understand that not can care enough to worry about the future...


10- Yes i agree that Chiellini has had a bad year and Bonucci a better year, BUT for their standards!!!
Since Chiello is many, many classes above Bonucci, even in a bad day, he usually has a better overall more positive end result.
Bonucci lacks the ability to tackle, which is unacceptable for a defender, let alone a CB, let alone one who aspires of becoming a great one.
He also lacks tactical awareness, so he often makes mistakes on critical moments in offside traps and last man marking.
Being a CB means that just one such mistake, is enough for your team to concede and lose the game or draw at best.

Bonucci tried to avoid being there, as Barzagli and Chiello are more experienced, they jump first to those difficult situations and this is how they protect Bonucci, when Chiellini makes a mistakes, he takes the blame for Bonucci, when Bonucci doesnt makes a mistake, it simply means that he wasnt there, not that he wouldnt make it See the difference?
Positive contributions, like clearing the ball in difficult situations, dipossesing classy forwards or marking them in a way that blocks them decisevly are very very rare for Bonucci, this is how a CB makes a positive contribution.
And Bonucci offers pretty much nada dere...
And when one of Barza and Chiello arent there and we have to rely on Bonucci, the mistakes multiply, this is when he is exposed to show his true value, this is when its visible even for the unexperienced or caring eye to easily make a safer judgement.

So after weeks and weeks of hyping him for doing nothing, you expect me to remain silent when the time to prove his worth surfaced and yet again he has failed miserably?
And why? Because my haters will find an opportunity to bash me and his blind supporters will be more sore and take it personally.
Thanks but no thanks, as i was there and pointing my view at his good moments, when the only thing that mattered was the clean sheet, i ll be here to point out his mistakes even at the moments we have conceded 4... most of them because we had to rely on Bonucci, because our midfield could not take away the pressure and because Chiello was out injured.
Of course it doesnt mean that Bonucci could have turned thew game by himself, but he could bring up a better performance, unfortunately he is that limited though...

11- But i give credit where is due and it is not my fault that it is not always noticed, sometimes it is, other it is not.
As i dont care about forum popularity, i dont make a special matter about it, but when i feel that i must give credit, i do it and with arguments that i know that can be used against in the future.
I dont hesitate, but in some moments, like this one and esp to Borriello, i dont give credit because as i have explained, i consider it to be a disgrace to the ones who make up for the the ones i consider handicaps.

I believe that in a victory, there can be a bad performer and in a defeat, there can be a good performer.
I wont hesitate to give credit to the good performer despite the loss, as i wont hesitate to criticise the bad performer, despite the win.
I dont rate by the result alone, i take notice of the whole picture, the details most of the ppl skip, this is also a part of my job
and again i feel obliged to point it out as i see it, without caring about my popularity, i consider it irrelevant as the point in this forum is not me, but Juve...

I consider it unacceptable to turn my views on our team, into a personal matter, it is utter stupidity IMO and unfortunately it happens way too often. Some members consider this place their playground, they think that they own the place, that they control it and when they see a counterargument that goes against their opinion, they get enraged.

In lack of arguments, they attack the forumer, not the argument, if the forum was properly moderated, this trolling would be contained, but unfortunately it isnt. Your efforts, good or ill intended, as it was meant for personal use and was irrelevant of the player and my arguments, should have stayed in a personal level, simply by pm-ing me.
This should be the case for my haters as well We should not derail the thread and the discussion with our views about the posters.
Esp considering the current situation, were the trolls are running rampant and only want an excuse to perform their daily role.

If you take a close look, to the ones who replay to my post with personal insults and no content, you will notice that it is the same core of 4-8 posters. They use this tactique with consistency vs other forum members too.
This is a part of the forum popularity games.
There also are other groups, who react with them and there are some certain bonds among them. These bonds define their behavior as well.
Sometimes for being cool and wise they have to agree or disagree with things they dont really comprehend, aprove or care about.
Typical herd behavior, it can be confirmed by tracking down certain members and take notice of their behavior.

The professioanl trolls that usually attack them, mostly have accounts that consists of one liners with falme mostly, they rarely express an opinion, they just attack other forumers.
I dont know how our mod teams handle and it is not my job, but they should contain them in a way that they should not derail football related threads with the consistency they do. I believe you had good intentions, by your initial posts helped the cause of trolling, after reading my posts carefully, i hope that you will understand what i mean and dont take this personally.
I ve also noticed that you love Juve and this place more than you thing, more than DP's or Gigi's looks,
when i said that, i did not have the intention to insult you, but ti ambition you to proove that it wasnt the case and i believe that with this post you have proved that and therefore i m pleased!!

12- But trying to do smth about it? Def not by ignoring it though...

13- I know, and i also know that sometimes i do sound pessimistic, but i am not, i believe that the right stance for most of the ppl is to be positive, but some of us have to be realists, it is manadatory for the common good.
Either be public health, the balance of the society or the micro-world of an open forum. The realists ought to have a place there and sometimes the pessimists have a relative importance to remind us how far we are standing above the clouds.

I tell you a couple of examples.
Since Secco, for many reasons i have explained in great detail, i said kept claiming that considering the situation in our team, i beleive that we will rank from places 2-7.
Thats was me trying to be objective, as i saw a great gap from the top teams and beleived that we can do better than the average ones.
A pessimist would claim that we would rank in the lower half, there is world of difference there.
And the majority of the forum, the day dreamers, thought we would be title contenders each and every year since our return to serie A.

My haters, in order to defame and present me a pessimist, made the worst predicitions and tried to present my views as such, with labels, like we will be relaagtions battlers and that we are doomed. simply because i presented my arguments of why i believe that at least for the next five years we wont do any better than that and at best, we will win a title/decade.
6 years after ranking from 2-7 should i fell pleased, that my prediction was accurate??
Some ppl would, because for some ppl their popularity here matters more than Juve, but not for me!!

I dont feel any kind of satisfaction through our suffering, only a twisted mind could have conceived such a though.
But as a parent that feels obliged to warns his child, i also feel obliged after watching closely the triade for years running this place, that if we dont change our strategy, we are destined to fail.

WTF should i do, embrace it?? Ignore it?? Sorry, but i cant, i wont, i will never do it, i love Juve waaaay to much to ignore or embrace mediocrity, i dont care if ppl will go mad at me if i burst their bubble, i feel obliged to tell them where we are really standing.

A month ago, AA in his interview has admitted that many mistakes were made and pretty much repeated the basic points of my criticism of the past 7 years. As any other Juventino, i want to believe, i want to see us taking the right path again, in the past 2 years i see many positive signs, but among with them some bad as well.
Thankfully the good signs are now more, i am gratefull an di have repeatdly expressed my gratitude and gave credit were it was due,
it is not my fault, that it was skipped between the swarm of over optimistic wishfull thinking.
I was just happy to join my voices with them and by as one.

But as i still see some of our mistakes that keep repeating, i will not ignore them or embrace them.
I filter out the bad parts and embrace the good ones.
For the 8th consecutive time, we have invested the greatest part of our budget on CMs and SS and yet again brought a free defender, no matter what will happen, imo this is a mistake. This is a pattern that keeps repeating and nevers seems to stop.
In the long run, we remain stacked up in those certain places and weak at the ones we ignore...
I agree that for this year the priority should have been the CF, as i have been pointing out the whole year and even the years before.
And a LB after that, as Chiello is needed in the center and DC is not quite reliable and a 4th CB at the same level to Bonucci at least, since we dont have any coverage at all, when we use a 3 man defense, in case just one of our 3 starters gets injured suspended.
And yet we have comitted 45mil on 2CMs and a SS...

I felt the obligation to remind that we suffered from Bonucci's mistakes quite a lot this year and the possibility of losing one of Chiellini or Barzagli in an important match is always out there, exactly as it happened in this final.
I take no satisfaction of watching us or Italy losing finals and important games, that exactly the reason i keep repeating this,
when the majority of the forumers craves for Jovetic and more other dribblers, instead of the CF and CB, i feel that we need above him.

Thankfully the one who is in charge this year knows his football and noticed that...

 

[Martin]

It's too easy to quote. You should have to type the whole thing.

 

[Klovn]

Holy shit.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

 

[Osman]

Now I know why the forums went down for a while.

 

[Fellas]

Sorry for taking that long, it wasnt out of disrespect, but hard work and some health issues kept me a way a few days.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post with honesty and seriousness.
For that i feel obliged to reply and also because i consider you a mature member, wothing the effort
I ll use a tablet for this, so pardon me for replying in a numerical way.

1-Thank you i appreciate that, i also appreciated you and have had great expectations
and this when one can be more dissapointed the most...

2- IMHO it should not be about, it should only about Juve, i dont come here to talk about me, but about Juve.
Real life gives me all the popularity and friends my time allows me to have, so i dont seek more here.
Not that i dismiss the chance, but i wont set it as a priority.
My free time is very limited, so when i join these forums, i want to talk about Juve, not me, my arguments and attention always target Juve matters.
But the consistent flaming from the same 4-6 trolls and the tolerance shown by the mod team, force me to defend my self, occasionally
(though i reckon its impossible to reason with such... beasts...)

3- PPl are always delusional and always hope for the best and always choose to ignore the sad parts of life.
But there is a moment, when we have to deal with them, decisively and sometimes, by doing so, we get a better end result, if its possible...
It is my my role, as a realist to play my role in the forums and balance the over-optimism with a touch of realism.
It is my profession and life role, to be objective and call it as i see it and believe me, so such a task does not consumes me.
I feel the obligation to warn and keep the balance and since this is an open forum, i dont see why a voice of reason could be harmful.
We used to have more forumers like my self and the conversations were more constructive imho...

4- Unfortunately, not everyone, even when we were conceiving goal after goal from his blunders ppl were defending his mediocrity.
He was obviously our weak point that was draging down our team and they wanted our team to suffer more, just to keep him.
IMO, no player should be above the team, we should not sacrifice our performances and lose points to train mediocre players.
This is a task for Pescara, not a title challenger.
This adds an uneeded handicap that is making our efforts to be more competitive all the more difficult.
Luckily for us, our direct adversaries have such handicaps as well.
Seria A is not as competitive as it was and the eyes of the tiger Conte gave us were more important than the handicaps called Bonucci and Borriello, but make no mistake, still that doesnt means that they are not handicaps!!

If Lucio and Cavani were on their boots, we would be champions 2-3 months ago...

5- For 6 consecutive seasons, we have been failing because we are not investing on the defense, particularly on foreigners who can raise the bar in acceptable levels.
Since Licht was anounced i was jubilant.
I used to like Barzagli, but as he lost form, i was uncertain, good for us that he worked out well, but the odds were against us,
there is a reason why some player cost fortunes and why some are cheap free.
We are systematically avoiding to invest on our weakest line. This is a mistake and 6 years of watching this should be enough even for the dumbest ppl to comprehend it.
Thats why i consider the acquisition of Licht the best transfer Marotta has ever done, i was sure about it, even before Licht wore our jersey.
Zeglier was a mistake, giving away Sorensen another. For both of these issues history have proved me correct, as Zeglier never got to play a game and Sorensen was missed in some injury/suspension plagued games.

Lucky us though, our super midfield was competent enough to keep the possession and the control of the game against most of our opponents and Buffon had a great season.Therefore, our defensive holes, were not as obvious as they should and inexperienced eye might miss the fact, that we had a good defensive record, not because of the quality of our defenders, but because of our midfield and possession football!

It is not my fault that ppl lack fundamental footbal knowledge to aknowledge that.
So considering our defense, i insisted that we need to stregthen it, Conte also has asked the same from day one.
From day one he has changed half of our defense and set up our defense to protect her.
This was also a reason he demandeed from our CMs and winger/wingbacks to contribute at defending.
Rending players like Krasic and Elia useless.
A sacrifice to mask our defense, a compromise i cannot and will not pretend i dont see.
Conte is a very gifted coach, i didnt know, i hoped for it, but i didnt know, i realised that after 2-3 friendlies.
The man can feels our team and adjust it to our needs.
He did the best he could and i am convinced that with better tools, he can achieve even better things.
If the local championship remains in this state, we wont have to step up, but why not step up?
We were always the team to set the bar in serie A and improve the whole championship and the NT as well.
And as we will return in Europe, we must be as competitive as we can be.
So, IMO we must not sit back and enjoy being the one eye king in the land of blind men, but keep trying to reach the level of competitivity we once had...
So for that purpose, i hope that we improve the best we can and easiest way to maximise this effort, is by upgrading your weakest part!

6- They do, for some being Italian is enough, they care more at having him around and suffer, sacrifice our performance to improve him, as long as their favorite boy is wearing our jersey. Some ppl were considering Molinaro reliable, if you remember.
I considered him a mistake and still do. In time he will be Juve material, as he is has more potential than Legro and Legro managed to become decent. But this time comes for most of the CB at their most productive age, 28-34, i m convinced that with the accumulated experience, Bonucci will be a top class CB by then. But until then, we should have a decent alternative.
I never send that he is useless and should be sold, but he is not Juve material just yet and this has been proved time and time again, when the injuries, suspension and any other reason that takes away the shield that is protecting him, fades away, then he is exsposed and his blunders become more obvious and often.
I merely say that we should have an option to avoid that, if Lucio was a couple of years younger, it would be perfect!

7- Again, it was not because of Bonucci's quality our defense did well, the boy barely made a couple of succesfull taclins the whole season long. There were other factors around him that caused that. And the ones who ignores that, gives no credit to them, in my eyes this is worse and even more disgraceful than just turning a bling eye to Bonucci;s mistakes that costed us more than 15 points this season...
Some boys made wonders out there to make up for the shortcomings of Bonucci and Borriello, it a disgrace not to aknowledge that, give credit to them, for making up, despite the handicap and praise the ones who were dragging us low...
So again i feel obliged to criticise the ones who i believe that are our weakest points. No matter if we win or not, there is always space for improvement.
My views and stance are consistent, but in some moments there are much more visible and have a much greater impact.
When i criticise Bonucci in wins, ppl just choose to ignore me, but make no mistake, i was there and it is not my fault that fewer ppl noticed, the ones who care enough about team, did so. And for them, i feel the obligation to make this point...



8- Many reasons:
-The board has imposed some rules to his contract, he must obey them, he must work with what he has, he has repeated those words when we hired him. This was the prime reason we bought him, not that we really believed in him...
-He must respect our ItalJuve project, which used to be a priority up until now and esp after the Diego fiasko...
-He has to do with Marotta, the man is very limited negotiator, he can negotiate in a level good enough to buy priority targets.
He overpays for our targets and sells off our players.
Noone respects him, he is not quite potent outside Italy, his best transfers were opportunity targets, that happen to fly by his targets.
He fails with great consistency to deliver were we suffer the most.
-The board, the nationalists that should be kept at balance, etc etc
Conte has to compromise and do what he can with the players at hand, he asked for defenders before, but Marotta fail to get any, despite the claims that he was trying until the very last day of the transfer window...

9- Because its easier to better understand the problrm at hand, this is how it all started, this is why Conte had to make the choice he did and the adjustments he made.
Being such a formidable coach, he was bound to adapt and find the way considering the tools at hand, even if some of them are more of a handicap.
Judging by the result will not help you reach into safe conclusions, you must consider were we started from and how we reached here.
Personally i was here all the way and i have explained in great detail why and how, so everyone who cared enough, realizes what i mean...
The rest are just the common fans who will cheer when we win and boo when we lose.
I for one can be jubilant from what i see, even at dissapointing draws/loses or dissapointing even after victories, because i see the bug pictures and mostly care about what happens in the long run...
Each fan to his approach, i respect every approach and understand that not can care enough to worry about the future...


10- Yes i agree that Chiellini has had a bad year and Bonucci a better year, BUT for their standards!!!
Since Chiello is many, many classes above Bonucci, even in a bad day, he usually has a better overall more positive end result.
Bonucci lacks the ability to tackle, which is unacceptable for a defender, let alone a CB, let alone one who aspires of becoming a great one.
He also lacks tactical awareness, so he often makes mistakes on critical moments in offside traps and last man marking.
Being a CB means that just one such mistake, is enough for your team to concede and lose the game or draw at best.

Bonucci tried to avoid being there, as Barzagli and Chiello are more experienced, they jump first to those difficult situations and this is how they protect Bonucci, when Chiellini makes a mistakes, he takes the blame for Bonucci, when Bonucci doesnt makes a mistake, it simply means that he wasnt there, not that he wouldnt make it See the difference?
Positive contributions, like clearing the ball in difficult situations, dipossesing classy forwards or marking them in a way that blocks them decisevly are very very rare for Bonucci, this is how a CB makes a positive contribution.
And Bonucci offers pretty much nada dere...
And when one of Barza and Chiello arent there and we have to rely on Bonucci, the mistakes multiply, this is when he is exposed to show his true value, this is when its visible even for the unexperienced or caring eye to easily make a safer judgement.

So after weeks and weeks of hyping him for doing nothing, you expect me to remain silent when the time to prove his worth surfaced and yet again he has failed miserably?
And why? Because my haters will find an opportunity to bash me and his blind supporters will be more sore and take it personally.
Thanks but no thanks, as i was there and pointing my view at his good moments, when the only thing that mattered was the clean sheet, i ll be here to point out his mistakes even at the moments we have conceded 4... most of them because we had to rely on Bonucci, because our midfield could not take away the pressure and because Chiello was out injured.
Of course it doesnt mean that Bonucci could have turned thew game by himself, but he could bring up a better performance, unfortunately he is that limited though...

11- But i give credit where is due and it is not my fault that it is not always noticed, sometimes it is, other it is not.
As i dont care about forum popularity, i dont make a special matter about it, but when i feel that i must give credit, i do it and with arguments that i know that can be used against in the future.
I dont hesitate, but in some moments, like this one and esp to Borriello, i dont give credit because as i have explained, i consider it to be a disgrace to the ones who make up for the the ones i consider handicaps.

I believe that in a victory, there can be a bad performer and in a defeat, there can be a good performer.
I wont hesitate to give credit to the good performer despite the loss, as i wont hesitate to criticise the bad performer, despite the win.
I dont rate by the result alone, i take notice of the whole picture, the details most of the ppl skip, this is also a part of my job
and again i feel obliged to point it out as i see it, without caring about my popularity, i consider it irrelevant as the point in this forum is not me, but Juve...

I consider it unacceptable to turn my views on our team, into a personal matter, it is utter stupidity IMO and unfortunately it happens way too often. Some members consider this place their playground, they think that they own the place, that they control it and when they see a counterargument that goes against their opinion, they get enraged.

In lack of arguments, they attack the forumer, not the argument, if the forum was properly moderated, this trolling would be contained, but unfortunately it isnt. Your efforts, good or ill intended, as it was meant for personal use and was irrelevant of the player and my arguments, should have stayed in a personal level, simply by pm-ing me.
This should be the case for my haters as well We should not derail the thread and the discussion with our views about the posters.
Esp considering the current situation, were the trolls are running rampant and only want an excuse to perform their daily role.

If you take a close look, to the ones who replay to my post with personal insults and no content, you will notice that it is the same core of 4-8 posters. They use this tactique with consistency vs other forum members too.
This is a part of the forum popularity games.
There also are other groups, who react with them and there are some certain bonds among them. These bonds define their behavior as well.
Sometimes for being cool and wise they have to agree or disagree with things they dont really comprehend, aprove or care about.
Typical herd behavior, it can be confirmed by tracking down certain members and take notice of their behavior.

The professioanl trolls that usually attack them, mostly have accounts that consists of one liners with falme mostly, they rarely express an opinion, they just attack other forumers.
I dont know how our mod teams handle and it is not my job, but they should contain them in a way that they should not derail football related threads with the consistency they do. I believe you had good intentions, by your initial posts helped the cause of trolling, after reading my posts carefully, i hope that you will understand what i mean and dont take this personally.
I ve also noticed that you love Juve and this place more than you thing, more than DP's or Gigi's looks,
when i said that, i did not have the intention to insult you, but ti ambition you to proove that it wasnt the case and i believe that with this post you have proved that and therefore i m pleased!!

12- But trying to do smth about it? Def not by ignoring it though...

13- I know, and i also know that sometimes i do sound pessimistic, but i am not, i believe that the right stance for most of the ppl is to be positive, but some of us have to be realists, it is manadatory for the common good.
Either be public health, the balance of the society or the micro-world of an open forum. The realists ought to have a place there and sometimes the pessimists have a relative importance to remind us how far we are standing above the clouds.

I tell you a couple of examples.
Since Secco, for many reasons i have explained in great detail, i said kept claiming that considering the situation in our team, i beleive that we will rank from places 2-7.
Thats was me trying to be objective, as i saw a great gap from the top teams and beleived that we can do better than the average ones.
A pessimist would claim that we would rank in the lower half, there is world of difference there.
And the majority of the forum, the day dreamers, thought we would be title contenders each and every year since our return to serie A.

My haters, in order to defame and present me a pessimist, made the worst predicitions and tried to present my views as such, with labels, like we will be relaagtions battlers and that we are doomed. simply because i presented my arguments of why i believe that at least for the next five years we wont do any better than that and at best, we will win a title/decade.
6 years after ranking from 2-7 should i fell pleased, that my prediction was accurate??
Some ppl would, because for some ppl their popularity here matters more than Juve, but not for me!!

I dont feel any kind of satisfaction through our suffering, only a twisted mind could have conceived such a though.
But as a parent that feels obliged to warns his child, i also feel obliged after watching closely the triade for years running this place, that if we dont change our strategy, we are destined to fail.

WTF should i do, embrace it?? Ignore it?? Sorry, but i cant, i wont, i will never do it, i love Juve waaaay to much to ignore or embrace mediocrity, i dont care if ppl will go mad at me if i burst their bubble, i feel obliged to tell them where we are really standing.

A month ago, AA in his interview has admitted that many mistakes were made and pretty much repeated the basic points of my criticism of the past 7 years. As any other Juventino, i want to believe, i want to see us taking the right path again, in the past 2 years i see many positive signs, but among with them some bad as well.
Thankfully the good signs are now more, i am gratefull an di have repeatdly expressed my gratitude and gave credit were it was due,
it is not my fault, that it was skipped between the swarm of over optimistic wishfull thinking.
I was just happy to join my voices with them and by as one.

But as i still see some of our mistakes that keep repeating, i will not ignore them or embrace them.
I filter out the bad parts and embrace the good ones.
For the 8th consecutive time, we have invested the greatest part of our budget on CMs and SS and yet again brought a free defender, no matter what will happen, imo this is a mistake. This is a pattern that keeps repeating and nevers seems to stop.
In the long run, we remain stacked up in those certain places and weak at the ones we ignore...
I agree that for this year the priority should have been the CF, as i have been pointing out the whole year and even the years before.
And a LB after that, as Chiello is needed in the center and DC is not quite reliable and a 4th CB at the same level to Bonucci at least, since we dont have any coverage at all, when we use a 3 man defense, in case just one of our 3 starters gets injured suspended.
And yet we have comitted 45mil on 2CMs and a SS...

I felt the obligation to remind that we suffered from Bonucci's mistakes quite a lot this year and the possibility of losing one of Chiellini or Barzagli in an important match is always out there, exactly as it happened in this final.
I take no satisfaction of watching us or Italy losing finals and important games, that exactly the reason i keep repeating this,
when the majority of the forumers craves for Jovetic and more other dribblers, instead of the CF and CB, i feel that we need above him.

Thankfully the one who is in charge this year knows his football and noticed that...

I agree with many things you say, and dissagree with some. But I certainly agree that this is a Juventus forum and everybody should focus on that, to attack other members because their opinion isen't the same is low IMO. If someone like Bonucci or not, it's his opinion, or if someone think the future is bright or looks bad, everybody here loves Juventus that's the most important thing. And a forum exist so you can discuss, if we all had the same opinions in everything, it would be boring. I like Juventuz.com, I have been here along time, even if don't have so much post. I read everyday and get alot of transfer news from here, Thanks to posters like Nicholas and Mark. I have never seen a forum who makes other stop posting because they get so much shit from others, especially a forum when people have the same interest and love for the same thing.