Lack of consistency from Lippi might be our undoing (3 Viewers)

[s0ftcore]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
then you both have a point as Del Bosque biggest problem is that he did not rotate enough and too many good or even superb players were left on the bench for too many games doing nothing but he did manage to make the superstars gel which is not hard as I have always belieived gr8 players are always on the same wavelength
Valencia is a good example of not changing too much and still winning
If you wanna do mass rotation , this is the time to do it, beginning of season cos imo after december, stick to your first team almost always

I was not having a go at you, I just did not know whether you meant last season or overall

Juve should apply what Real and Valencia have done. Mass rotation is a big no-no... I mean look at Chelsea. I don't think they will do very well this season, because their players can't seem to settle down.

Our lack of consistency is actually our failure to nail down a proper formation and play it. Come on Lippi, let's choose a formation and play it throughout the season!

IMRVHO that is

 

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[Zizou]

No cause otherwise the players you might need to put in during the season would not be in form.

How can we seriously talk about lack of consistency when we won 6 out of 7 matches we played?? Where's the inconsistency?

 

[s0ftcore]

What are the chances of 2 players playing in the same position not being in form?

I think consistency of the formation as well as how we tend to go to sleep in some games though we win them eventually is still a cause of concern.

 

[slack]

s0ftcore/Primo,

Wow, Venn diagrams! Who said football isn’t a science? I think that’s a very good analogy. Let’s take a systematic (if overly simplistic) approach on this matter.

My point is a team, regardless of formation, is made up of these very basic building blocks. What one would be trying to achieve with such would be cultivating an awareness/understanding of their own role and perhaps even more importantly, that of their accomplices – the whole can really be greater than its sum if done right. Denco said it when he stated that great minds usually think alike; this is where you let/teach them to co-ordinate/build a coherent attack etc, giving more shape and purpose to their intention against the rather random/haphazard we seem to be doing for quite a while now.

The formation is the final ‘integration’ jigsaw on a larger scale, done right at the very end depending on your opponents. Tweaking should be largely limited to this stage, not on the fundamental level. In any case, contrary to the Venns’ principles, I don’t think the disruption will be as severe even if we introduce a new player or 2 into it. The other veterans in the system should be more than able to cover/plug most weaknesses till the newbs have adapted properly?

IMEHO, that is (take that )

denco,

I would guess that Camo’s still walking a tightrope on ‘probation’ after that farce in pre-season. Moggi’s probably trying to wriggle out of his initial commitment in giving him a due raise - its a smokescreen I tell ya! Thuram is nearly 32 and he’s definitely been out of sorts so far. Frequently caught in a dilemma between attack or defence, to be fair, I think we’ve got to take into the consideration the extent to which he’s being exposed by the midfield as well. That’s not detracting from the fact that he’s been quite awful (by his high standards) because he was. As for him being our BEST defender in terms of quality, absolutely spot-on there! I really do see him moving to the centre eventually but probably not this season.

Total agreement on the timeline as well : all tinkering, unless enforced, must end by December for our traditional sprint towards the finishing line. How soon ADP picks up his form will be critical to the survival of the proposed 4-2-3-1 … how long do you think he’ll take?

As for the comparison to the Spaniards, namely Real Madrid, Valencia and Deportivo, here’s my take.

Real Madrid and Del Bosque is not a good comparison. What we know is that Del Bosque did not really rotate. What we don’t know is if Del Bosque ever intended to rotate. The current Real Madrid structure is a well-known one. I’m suspecting that there’s probably an implicit directive that the ‘superstars’ must all play (that’s the reason why they are bought in the 1st place, no?) Del Bosque was retained for as long as he was (considering the survival term of most managers) because he suits that semi-muppet capacity. His hands are tied, the fault isn’t entirely his and I sympathize with that.

Valencia and Deportivo are more accurate reflections of Juve. In fact, they are footballing models we should aspire to. Benitez and Irureta are no-nonsense coaches with full authority over their squad and are seldom, if ever held ransom to ‘stardom’. Look what happened to Djalminha (despite his proven ability in the team) when he tried to mess around with Irureta? I’m sure Lippi enjoys that privilege as well but somehow, his bizarre rotation and dismal results (in terms of teamplay) leaves plenty to be desired. What’s really wrong? Well, we’ve had plenty of discussions on that before and those who don’t agree are obviously wrong

 

[Hydde]

The Del Boque´s thing is true. IN some way he was forced to maintain the same line up...by third persons. Is not completely his fault.

About rotation, if a player never pays..when he is called to cover an important player, he will not do the job for sure because is not the same in training as in the real duel. Thos kind of players, whoa re bench warmers,,,deserve some minutes per game. Being more specific, the best players on the bench.

Last year we always used the same line up...and our benches didnt the job and sometimes failed. Remember divaio??, after the newcastle´s games, and the return of the del piero, herarely played,,,and the rsults were reflected in his poor second half of last campaing...but he improved a little in the final games,,after we lost the CL.

 

[denco]

Slack
As For Dp , I cannot honestly tell you when he would pick up form but judging by experience, if he does comes back in November it could take him till March before he picks up, he can be very annoying in that respect

Regarding Real Madrid you could be right in the all stars have to play to please the fans and all that and he is definitely the muppet kind of manager as he always seemed to be the reluctant hero. But then again he could have probably done more in his rotation cos if i remember correctly prior to Morientes starting against us in the cl semis, he had not started a songle game all season which is criminal of someone of his quality and relative stardom

@ Hydde , I understand what you are saying and I see where you are coming from, but as far as I am concerned, its up to a player to be ready when called upon to deliver, its no good saying , he has not been playing all season that is why he has been crap or whatever
Its not Utopia, managers live and die by results, and there is no point in resting key players and giving fringe players a game just because you want to make him feel wanted or you want to make sure he is in peak form when he is needed otherwise you end up losing matches that way

You mention Di Vaio and all that but would you say Baiocco was given a fair crack , the answer is no , so if you are going to do that you have to do that for every one cos u never know where you would unearth a diamond

To counter that point, noone deserves to be a regualr starter in world football than Solksjaer, but uptill the end of last season he was always a sub for any striker they bought at United but when he came on , the efffects were devastating

Now Zalayeta was given a decent run last season but that did that help us in the Cl final, well no, because Zala will never let you down in terms of effort, its ability that escapes him and thats what we want

There are exceptions like when you see players like Maresca or Miccolli not getting games , that would annoy you cos you know they have potential and deserve to play in place of players they are as good as or better than

But in Di Vaio's case he is a bit unlucky in the fact that whether you love or hate , Trez is the best finisher we have and Dv is not in any shape of form in Dp's class so whom do you drop?
DV should really make a great sub as his pace and finishing (sometimes) would be useful to tiring defences

 

[s0ftcore]

Dear Denco,

I think you're right about a player being in the right 'frame of mind' when being called upon. But I think Hydde had a point in playing 'the best players on the bench' more often because it tells them they have a future in the club. And that sort of helps them settle into that right 'frame of mind' when being called upon.

For example, if I was Maresca, and I don't get a game unless Tach is injured (we all know Tach is our holding mid), how would I feel? I would feel that I'm only playing second fiddle to Tach, and a player of my calibre shouldn't sit on the bench.

Of course, you can argue about where's my passion and stuff, but it's only human to feel wanted. For example, if you keep getting rejected by your crush a zillion times, you'll eventually give up.

Oh haha, shiat examples, but we'll make do with them, mmkay?

Dear Slack,

You have a point about tweaking the team after we have a foundation. But what worries me is that we're not 'building on top of the foundation'.

Here's what I mean: We did quite ok with the 4-2-3-1 and normal 4-4-2 last season. So why 4-3-1-2 this season? Is it because of the new flux of players which has caused us to 'build another foundation'?

The foundation doesn't really look built, and I honestly don't think Appiah and Davids can play in the same team, yet I feel Davids is too good to be left out. Appiah can't seem to combine with Thuram, while Thuram seems to play better with Camo. Why is Camo, a starter for Italian NT, not being picked ahead of Appiah?

Stupid factors like trying to freeze players out for their stupidity in the past have thus caused this reshuffle in formation and hence, we're gonna have to settle down and goddamn get our Venn diagrams right.

IMRHAHOMDS that is (Hey slack, what the hell is IMEHO anyway? oh yeah, IMRHAHO means in my really honest and humble opinion my dear sir. Just had to write that down before I forget )

 

[Hydde]

NO no, im not saying to rest keyplayers full matches....is obvious that if we have del piero at our disposal..we will dont need to use divaio...but wht i want to point is that is not a bad idea to let him play at least the last 10 minutes.
You are saying the living proof!. Baiocco, he didnt played at all...i just remember him playing in the dynamo game...and some minutes in the serie A. I dont remember if he played against Manu. But in all his appearances he was not good. IMO thts because what i said before. He didnt have enough time playing with his teammates.
Zalayeta played much more than divaio in the second half of the season. He was the direct sub of trez, whn in the first half,,it was divaio.

Like softcore said... i would prefer to give this players some minutes in some games,,than keep them waiting for a moment to shine. OK, there are esceptions...and the bench must be ready...but still i think that apart from trainings you need minutes in the field too.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Hydde ] ++
NO no, im not saying to rest keyplayers full matches....is obvious that if we have del piero at our disposal..we will dont need to use divaio...but wht i want to point is that is not a bad idea to let him play at least the last 10 minutes.
You are saying the living proof!. Baiocco, he didnt played at all...i just remember him playing in the dynamo game...and some minutes in the serie A. I dont remember if he played against Manu. But in all his appearances he was not good. IMO thts because what i said before. He didnt have enough time playing with his teammates.

Sorry mate, but Baiocco was a flop at Juve. He didn't perform well when given the opportunity, and you can't expect to get a whole lot of time at a club like Juve.

 

[s0ftcore]

IIRC, Baiocco played the first 2 games of last season, then Davids returned. But I have a shiat memory, so oh well...

And we gotta let Chimenti play every now and then

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++
And we gotta let Chimenti play every now and then

Just to keep our goals allowed total in the same neighborhood as the rest of the league?

 

[slack]

denco,

Indeed, if his layoff and subsequent recovery earlier this year was anything to go by, we’re in deep shite. We can't have him moping up and down the pitch for half the match before Lippi decides to substitute him (if he might even consider doing so, that is) The saving grace though is we now have Miccoli but we’ll have to play a different set-up with him. Either way, we'll still be sweating on the health of Nedved, which we're supposed to at least partially solve with a coherent system this season.

On rotation again, the essence is really WHO we should rotate and not just for the sake of doing so. The rational for doing that is to achieve a step-up in quality. From that standpoint, there’s the most glaring instance is that of Maresca vs Tach. The rest are debatable to say the least, ie. Appiah vs Davids, Camo vs Miccoli, DV vs Trez. Don’t even mention Tudor.

The decision of playing subs and for how long has always been a dilemma. Ideally, like Lippi stressed on, everyone should be ready when called upon. However, it is a practical impossibility to adapt to real-time match conditions when all you’ve done is play reserve games (Italy doesn’t even have that), much less training matches. I know by personal experience that a coupla weeks without a competitive game is sufficient to wreak havoc on everything from sharpness, coordination to match fitness. Think of someone who hasn’t played for months? However, the reality overrules all reasonable considerations. There is indeed no justification for anyone to be given an extended run-out to get into shape while the rest of the team suffers BUT the converse is valid as well - catch-22? Trying to dislodge a 1st-teamer from his place when all you have to show for is in training is phenomenally difficult but not impossible. You can draw a similar analogy to the military around the world – they don’t fight all the time yet they are ready. All they need to do is adopt Nedved’s attitude and give their best meanwhile for the rest is outta their hands … there’s no point in brooding over something beyond your control, is there? As a professional at the highest level, motivation or rather the lack of it, cannot be an excuse.

Regarding Solksjaer, I don’t really agree with you there. His forte and thus role has always been that of a 1-half player, very much like Tristan. I can find no reasonable explanation for this inconsistency (if that’s the correct term) but that’s probably why he’s been a sub almost throughout his entire ManU career.

On the issue of time, 10mins actually means very different things between a striker/midfielder/defender in terms of winning/saving a match. In that sense, defenders and DMs are usually at a visual disadvantage for performing an equally important role in being preventive over corrective – most are quick to judge from only the obvious.

Otherwise, totally agree with everything else there

s0ftcore,

Eh I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘not building on top of the foundation’ … care to elaborate further?

Actually, our 4-2-3-1 last season was enforced by the availability (or lack of, rather) of players. We have always played with a 4-3-1-2, which is a 4-4-2 in the general sense Its sometimes even known as the ‘diamond’ with one specialist trequartista (ADP) in the ‘hole’, one deep DM with exclusive defensive duties (Tach) and flanked by 2 wingers/multi-purpose players (Camo, Zambro to Nedved and Davids) Hence, our ‘new’ formation is really the 4-2-3-1 which we already had some experimental experience in on the back of last season.

The formation looks shaky coz our basic blocks (ie. the Thuram-Appiah duo like you said) haven’t clicked. Appiah is primarily a defensive player and that’s a common duty which overlaps with that of Thuram – the confusion/dilemma and uncertainty in positioning could well be due to both these guys occupying the same/wrong areas along the flank. In contrast, Camo has a role which is clearer and more defined as an attacker which simplifies matters for the RB as well. That’s not to say that Thuram-Appiah won’t ever work but perhaps need more time that’s all. Another consideration though is that Thuram himself has been poor as well so one can’t totally fault the system.

Oh yes, wanna volunteer to school Lippi on the basics on mathematics and applications? His grasp of it seems to be slipping quite badly

IMEHO = In My Extreme Humble Opinion, which IMHO, beats IMRHAHOMDS hands down

 

[s0ftcore]

++ [ originally posted by slack ] ++
Eh I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘not building on top of the foundation’ … care to elaborate further?

Actually, our 4-2-3-1 last season was enforced by the availability (or lack of, rather) of players. We have always played with a 4-3-1-2, which is a 4-4-2 in the general sense Its sometimes even known as the ‘diamond’ with one specialist trequartista (ADP) in the ‘hole’, one deep DM with exclusive defensive duties (Tach) and flanked by 2 wingers/multi-purpose players (Camo, Zambro to Nedved and Davids) Hence, our ‘new’ formation is really the 4-2-3-1 which we already had some experimental experience in on the back of last season.

The 4-3-1-2 we are playing now is more... compressed. We used to play 2 wide midfielders (Yes, Davids is a wide player who pushes into the centre). Now its hard to see both Davids and Camo play together. Instead we have Appiah and sometimes even Tudor playing there.

As for our new formation, the 4-2-3-1, I don't see it being played often. I think Lippi wants to play that formation to accomodate Trez, DP and Miccoli. But Trez, as quote from somebody, cannot play lone striker! Why is it Trez has to play up? Just because he can be a target man? Why not try DP as lone striker? Besides I dont rate Trez highly anymore after his horrendous miss in the CL Finals. I mean missing his spotkick. Wait, I'm going out of point now...

Oh yes, 'building on top of the foundation'. We've got a team that plays well with wide men. Why suddenly play a team with a packed midfield? For example, if our style of scoring are from crosses, why suddenly change it to trying to score from long shots. I know it's a bit vague but to explain it in words... it's a bit diffcult :down:

++ [ originally posted by slack ] ++
IMEHO = In My Extreme Humble Opinion, which IMHO, beats IMRHAHOMDS hands down

:LOL:

IMRHAHOMDS, it doesnt.

 

[denco]

If you look at clubs who play good football say like Arsenal, Valencia Depor and Real madrid , man united, Roma and say Lazio with Milan then you look at Juventus , Inter and Liverpool

The one thing that strikes me with both groups is that the teams that play good football almost always have players who are comfortable playing their positions, they do not have to be superstars like real has but can be journeymen or players you won't ordinarily buy.

I mean you won't tell a player like Viera or Gilberto to start playing as a winger or tell keane to play in that position either , you do not see Mauro Silva playing out of position like wise Albertini etc

But you look at the second group ie liverpool , juve and Inter then you see the manager testing versatility to the limit, u find Biscan playing as a winger, gerard the same, Davids and Appiah doing that just to accommodate Tacchinardi, kewell on the right , heskey on the left or diof on the right and lets not even start n Inter

Hence you always find yourself being rescued not by team play but by individual brilliance could be Dp, Nedved, Owen or Gerrard or even Murphy and Vieri etc

I mean whats the point in playing Appiah on the right , thats why his form has dipped, the guy is a defensive midfielder, I personally think that Tacchi is useful only when we have a playmaker he can be passing the ball to not when flanked with defensive midfielders who don't know what to do with the ball when given it
Tudor in midfield is just sheer madness imo and if we could just settle on putting players where they should be not just to accommodate egos then we should be playing better football

Yes it worked for Zambrotta but to be honest I never thought Zambrotta then was too good a winger and a player like Davids should not be confined to the left, put him in the middle where all the action is , ditto with Appiah

Miccolli seems to like to roam but favours the right, Dp favours the left while Nedved likes the middle

Trez does not like being isolated and he does need help, Dv's movement and overall contribution is better than Trez but he is not as good a finisher
Maresca , I would rather see support the strikers not playing in front of the defence
This is all for the coach to try and work out or we could go on grinding out results and relying on the Nedveds of this world to bail us out

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
If you look at clubs who play good football say like Arsenal, Valencia Depor and Real madrid , man united, Roma and say Lazio with Milan then you look at Juventus , Inter and Liverpool

The one thing that strikes me with both groups is that the teams that play good football almost always have players who are comfortable playing their positions, they do not have to be superstars like real has but can be journeymen or players you won't ordinarily buy.

I mean you won't tell a player like Viera or Gilberto to start playing as a winger or tell keane to play in that position either , you do not see Mauro Silva playing out of position like wise Albertini etc

But you look at the second group ie liverpool , juve and Inter then you see the manager testing versatility to the limit, u find Biscan playing as a winger, gerard the same, Davids and Appiah doing that just to accommodate Tacchinardi, kewell on the right , heskey on the left or diof on the right and lets not even start n Inter

Hence you always find yourself being rescued not by team play but by individual brilliance could be Dp, Nedved, Owen or Gerrard or even Murphy and Vieri etc

I mean whats the point in playing Appiah on the right , thats why his form has dipped, the guy is a defensive midfielder, I personally think that Tacchi is useful only when we have a playmaker he can be passing the ball to not when flanked with defensive midfielders who don't know what to do with the ball when given it
Tudor in midfield is just sheer madness imo and if we could just settle on putting players where they should be not just to accommodate egos then we should be playing better football

Yes it worked for Zambrotta but to be honest I never thought Zambrotta then was too good a winger and a player like Davids should not be confined to the left, put him in the middle where all the action is , ditto with Appiah

Miccolli seems to like to roam but favours the right, Dp favours the left while Nedved likes the middle

Trez does not like being isolated and he does need help, Dv's movement and overall contribution is better than Trez but he is not as good a finisher
Maresca , I would rather see support the strikers not playing in front of the defence
This is all for the coach to try and work out or we could go on grinding out results and relying on the Nedveds of this world to bail us out

I agree completely with what you are saying. I've been saying for a long time that we should play our damn players where they belong. Barcelona does the same exact thing, but I think we do it a bit better...

 

[s0ftcore]

Denco:

Though we are playing players at their wrong position and you could say individual performances seem to save our guts, I think that unlike Liverpool, once say Appiah is put on the right, that's where he belongs. Unlike in Liverpool, we see Gerrard playing centre mid, sometimes holding mid, and even a flank midfielder.

I think Davids on the left works fine, esp if we're playing a 4-1-2-1 because Davids is licenced to push in and chip in with the tackles, while we have (hopefully) Maresca sweeping it up. And unlike Appiah, Davids isn't afraid to attack too, so Davids achieves his role as a complete midfielder. Davids is a box-to-box player and the formation suits him.

However, Appiah is more suited for the centre. However the 4-1-2-1 and the 4-3-1-2 are different. You see, 4-3-1-2 sees us playing 3 defensive midfielders. That not only sees us playing negative football, poor Thuram is also affected. :frown:

But of course, I would rather see players playing their preferred positions. But if somebody is better than you, yet the coach feels you're too good to be dropped, he'll play you in the team but just not at your favourite position, because somebody is better than you.

That's how life works anyway

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++
Denco:

Though we are playing players at their wrong position and you could say individual performances seem to save our guts, I think that unlike Liverpool, once say Appiah is put on the right, that's where he belongs. Unlike in Liverpool, we see Gerrard playing centre mid, sometimes holding mid, and even a flank midfielder.

Not entirely true as there have been many occasions where Appiah has started as a defensive kind of in the middle midfileder with Camo on the right and then Lippi takes off Camo and Appiah plays on the left, my point is that Appiah should not be played as a right winger at all

to be part fo the action all the time so why not stick him in there where

[QUOTE

]

I think Davids on the left works fine, esp if we're playing a 4-1-2-1 because Davids is licenced to push in and chip in with the tackles, while we have (hopefully) Maresca sweeping it up. And unlike Appiah, Davids isn't afraid to attack too, so Davids achieves his role as a complete midfielder. Davids is a box-to-box player and the formation suits him.[/QUOTE

]

Again I have to disagree on this , Davids is just making the best of the situation, does not mean its his best position, he cannot really cross, so why is he playing like a left winger and he is the kind of player who likes he can grit his teeth and kick some serious butt

But of course, I would rather see players playing their preferred positions. But if somebody is better than you, yet the coach feels you're too good to be dropped, he'll play you in the team but just not at your favourite position, because somebody is better than you.

That's how life works anyway

Probably or possibly its just coaches trying to be too clever by half. I would rather some managers just keep things simple

 

[s0ftcore]

However if Davids plays in the centre, then that would mean say Nedved would have to move to the left. Nedved has shown what he can do in the centre and therefore deserves to keep his place, but Davids, as you say, by playing left mid is simply making the best of the situation.

But what other alternatives are there for left midfielder? Zambrotta? Maresca? Davids appears to be the best pick among them for the left midfield slot, so the manager would choose him.

On your 3rd point? Oh well, Lippi is a bit of a dumbass at times. I assume when you mean keep things simple, you mean playing players in their respective positions. But that would mean building his formation around a tactic and not around his best players.

I just hope we can get the right tactic to fit our best players and play it throughout. Then we build our reserves around the tactic. Know what I'm saying?

 

[denco]

Oh I won't go as far as calling Lippi a dumbass, he just gets a nose bleed now and then especially in Cl finals and in basically big games, its not really peculiar to him alone its got to do with every manager thats regarded as a tactician
You won't really find Fergie changing formations to suit the opposition as he won't even know how so he just basically plays his best team

As for Nedved playing on the left when Davids is at the centre, why would you think that i menat that ? Davids plays in the centre preferably with Appiah or Maresca , Nedved roves and on the left you have Zambrotta and Dp Or DV and Nedved can always drift there when he wants but not pigeon-holed there

 

[Zizou]

Saying that Juve is in the same league of Inter and Liverpool is really disgraceful.