Lack of consistency from Lippi might be our undoing (5 Viewers)

[s0ftcore]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
To answer your question Softcore, of course they can and I honestly don't see how Lippi thinks Maresca is more of a sub for nedved as Maresca does not work the flanks , he prefers going through the middle, in fact they share no characterristics i can think of

If that's the case, that means Maresca would have to sit back and play the Pirlo position. Though people have said he can play there, I don't think he actually did that in Piacenza right? I think he was more of their attacking midfielder. So that means Maresca would not only have to settle down in a new position, but Tach would be dropped. And then we would play a Milan like formation, with Davids and Appiah on the flanks.

Well, a player like Maresca could adapt easily. But would Lippi drop Tach for Maresca? Personally, I would. Because I think Maresca is a better player.

++ [ originally posted by Primo ] ++
I would love to see them both on the same pitch together.

I really dont know why Lippi doesnt. It would be a very offensive midfield true, and may leave our defensive qualities in midfield questionable. But it may also act as our defense, because continuous attacking would mean that the opposition would always need to stay at bay.

"Your best defense is a good offence, & vice versa"

That's why if we play those 2, we would have to change our formation. Nobody plays 2 attacking midfielders in centre midfield if they're playing a 442 in Italian football :geek:

Oh lemme get that straight, I mean a flat 442

 

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[Adrian]

i havent read all the posts, but thinking back to 95-98, juve generally had a fixed formation and line up which everyone knew would be able to compete against any team in the world.

these days, we are unaware of what lippi has decided on in terms of formations, players and tactics.

rotation is very good, espeically when you have such a versitile squad like juve has. but at the same time, do we know what formation is considered best by lippi?

i personally dont know whether or not appiah is preferred to davids, is camo a starter yet?? who replaces nedved if he gets injured? is di vaio a replacement for del piero or just trez?

the season is young and i'm sure by mid season, we;ll have our best team on the park. but currently, it remains a mystery.

 

[slack]

Nedved is effective because he's as direct as you can get and highly dangerous - that is his value to Juve and not creativity coz he has close to none.

Hence, Maresca should never be considered as a replacement for Nedved though I've no doubt he can fill in to some extent. Enzo's the man to dislodge Tach who with all due respect, is the bottleneck to better football. You'd be surprised at what a little more technique/composure and possession in midfield can do for the whole teamplay.

The crucial difference between now and 96-98 isn't players nor formation ... its chemistry in how they knew, complemented and covered each other seamlessly. The system (something which we don't really have now) was fantastic as a substitute was as good as the 1st teamer. This team doesn't have it for some reason and all the buying/selling in the world isn't gonna help if you can't coach them into it.

 

[Zizou]

You can't really compare the 95-98 period with this period. Back then there were less matches in the CL and to be honest, they weren't as hard as now considering that for 95 and 96 only the number 1 team from each league went through.

 

[Layce Erayce]

well for one we're also under a lot more pressure now. coaches getting sacked left and right. one season without a trophy and fans hire snipers assasins and mercenaries....

its crazy

 

[s0ftcore]

++ [ originally posted by slack ] ++
Nedved is effective because he's as direct as you can get and highly dangerous - that is his value to Juve and not creativity coz he has close to none.

Hence, Maresca should never be considered as a replacement for Nedved though I've no doubt he can fill in to some extent. Enzo's the man to dislodge Tach who with all due respect, is the bottleneck to better football. You'd be surprised at what a little more technique/composure and possession in midfield can do for the whole teamplay.

The crucial difference between now and 96-98 isn't players nor formation ... its chemistry in how they knew, complemented and covered each other seamlessly. The system (something which we don't really have now) was fantastic as a substitute was as good as the 1st teamer. This team doesn't have it for some reason and all the buying/selling in the world isn't gonna help if you can't coach them into it.

Apparently Tach gives us more defensive cover, but I think he's a tad too inconsistent. I'm all for Maresca playing DM! :thumb:

However, because Tach is vice-captain and all, I doubt he will be dropped by Lippi as Tach is more experienced and Tach has already settled into the first team game plans.

++ [ originally posted by Adrian ] ++
i havent read all the posts, but thinking back to 95-98, juve generally had a fixed formation and line up which everyone knew would be able to compete against any team in the world.

these days, we are unaware of what lippi has decided on in terms of formations, players and tactics.

rotation is very good, espeically when you have such a versitile squad like juve has. but at the same time, do we know what formation is considered best by lippi?

i personally dont know whether or not appiah is preferred to davids, is camo a starter yet?? who replaces nedved if he gets injured? is di vaio a replacement for del piero or just trez?

the season is young and i'm sure by mid season, we;ll have our best team on the park. but currently, it remains a mystery.

Am I right to say that fixed formation and lineup led to a horrible season, the one where DP was seriously injured. Then, we had no cover for DP. I might be wrong as I'm a little bit confused about that horrible season we had.

But come to think about it now, we have cover for nearly every player. And our subs are pretty decent too!

 

[sallyinzaghi]

well i think its not time for maresca to get the first team place just yet. i think lippi should play him against smaller clubs of course since he's young & talented, but i think we ought to keep our midfield just as it is now.

what im worried bout is our defence! is legro the only reliable young blood in the defence? aiee

 

[Adrian]

++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++


Apparently Tach gives us more defensive cover, but I think he's a tad too inconsistent. I'm all for Maresca playing DM! :thumb:

However, because Tach is vice-captain and all, I doubt he will be dropped by Lippi as Tach is more experienced and Tach has already settled into the first team game plans.



Am I right to say that fixed formation and lineup led to a horrible season, the one where DP was seriously injured. Then, we had no cover for DP. I might be wrong as I'm a little bit confused about that horrible season we had.

But come to think about it now, we have cover for nearly every player. And our subs are pretty decent too!

i admit times have changed since then, but juve has so many players in this squad who could directly replace injured starters. we are not utilising them all proparly leaving us in the shitter again if a player like nedved gets injured.

realistically, we could have a set formation, and still have subs ready to directly replace players as lippi wishes.

and one other thing, looking at certain key players, here's our options.

del piero- miccoli, olivera
trezeguet-di vaio, zalayeta(he is an option)
Nedved-del piero, olivera, miccoli, maresca(if need be)
tacchinardi- maresca
davids-appiah
miccoli- camo
camo-miccoli
legro/tudor- ciro, iuliano
zambro-birindelli, pessotto
thuram-same

come on, we have plenty of options for cover now...our squad is twice as large as it was back then.

 

[s0ftcore]

What I'm trying to say is that DP has more backup now. Say he gets injured... we have DV, Miccoli and even Olivera trying for his position.

However, we need more cover for our fullbacks. And is Chimenti still our keeper? He was horrible against Man U... 2-1, last season

 

[KeNgO]

Not really!!!!! i mean Chimenti is definitly not first class goal keeper!!! and he is not an excellent starter but his experience enables him to be an excellent backup choice adn against manchester when we lost 2-1 last season! (the flu attack) he did a decent game!!! both goals were not his fault! he is not a goal keeper who can pull out miraculas saves but he is definitly a goalkeeper i want in case buffon gets injured or suspended!!!


now concerning the tactics!!! i hate to see juventus play with a fixed tactics!!! i like what lippi has done to the squad plays a different tactic for different matches, he reads the opponents and then plays a game that would suite the style of play of our opponents that gives us alot of unpredictibility and the element of surprise!!! what helps lippi alot is having players like DP, Nedved, Camo, Zambo, Thuram. Tudor who can play in different positions!!!

 

[s0ftcore]

But wouldn't it be better if we play with momentum and roll over our opponents? That's the advantage of playing with a fixed tactic.

Clubs like Juve are able to tweak their formation easily because of their depth, but IMHO, I still prefer a fixed formation. Sure it gives us less unpredictabilty, but it strikes fear into the opponent's heart.

Oh well, even if we didn't have a fixed formation, they would still fear us

But my point is, a fixed formation is better than an unfixed one. Why? Let's look at successful teams in Europe: Real Madrid, Valencia, Milan. They have an edge as they sort of have a fixed formation.

Peace.

 

[slack]

++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++
But wouldn't it be better if we play with momentum and roll over our opponents? That's the advantage of playing with a fixed tactic.

Clubs like Juve are able to tweak their formation easily because of their depth, but IMHO, I still prefer a fixed formation. Sure it gives us less unpredictabilty, but it strikes fear into the opponent's heart.

Oh well, even if we didn't have a fixed formation, they would still fear us

But my point is, a fixed formation is better than an unfixed one. Why? Let's look at successful teams in Europe: Real Madrid, Valencia, Milan. They have an edge as they sort of have a fixed formation.

Peace.

Unfortunately, I think the situation is rather a bit more complicated

There are players, a system then a formation (in sequential order) Its kinda difficult to define each on its own as with all team-sports but anyway, how’d you build a team? Personally, I’d probably start with a clear idea of how I’d want them to play. After acquiring the right (most if not all) players, I’d shape them into a system ie. the building your little duos, triangles, cliques (Camo-Thuram, DP-Trez etc) … in short, basically where most of the footballing work/coaching is done. Finally, it is fitting/tweaking them into specific formations. Will be great to have an insight by anyone with coaching experience (Rickenbacker2?)

By and large, I believe Juve has the players as well as pretty clear ideas on formations as well. However, it has been individual over system from midfield onwards. In fact, nothing can be concluded from the few patchy performances in the novel 4-2-3-1 apart from raising extra doubts … as fundamental as tailoring players into system OR adapting system to players (the chicken/egg story)?

Injuries, notably the one to DP and Micco in succession (and Trez previously) have indeed complicated matters. We have a core of players schooled in 4-3-1-2 as far back as Lotti’s era; it is always difficult to teach new stuff to the established so it might take longer than usual. In the Serie A, results are the overruling factor – Juve ALWAYS has to deliver and there’s little tolerance to short-term failure even if its for the long-term good. I think this is why Lippi has been retreating (odd/absurd decisions) into no man’s land (the struggle to find a compromised between old vs new style to appease everyone) every time he faces a major challenge such as Roma. While we’re scraping through and getting by so far, I honestly don’t see us getting anywhere without a clear direction nor the backing/resolve to see it through. In fact, DP/Miccoli’s injuries have drastically shortened the ‘experimental’ grace period so much so that I’m afraid we’ll never see the ironed-out 4-2-3-1 in full flow. That has become plan B from the initial A. What we’re likely to see instead is basically the same Juve (and fundamental flaws) we’ve witnessed last season with the exception of added sustainability in depth. How much of that will be eroded/offset by opponents wising up remains to be seen but I won’t be putting my money against it.

Bottomline? You can’t have everything and you've still gotta sort your priorities out, Lippi.

IMVHO, that is.

 

[Primo]

Since the topic of building your little duos, triangles, cliques such as Camo-Thuram, DP-Trez, Davids-Tacchi has been brought up, I'd like to focus on this more.

I think rotating the whole team is a good idea. But I think its important to retain the crux of some of these duos, triangles, cliques and such. For example, we can let the subs play in some games, but at least retain these little duos which would allow them to improve their coordination.

Goals are usually made by a combination of a number of players. It is seldom that the whole team is involved. Real is one good example of this.

So, there should be times when we let the subs play, but retain the DP-DT duo, or put subs in attack, but retain the Camo-Nedved-Appiah triangle, etc.

 

[KeNgO]

++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++
Oh well, even if we didn't have a fixed formation, they would still fear us

But my point is, a fixed formation is better than an unfixed one. Why? Let's look at successful teams in Europe: Real Madrid, Valencia, Milan. They have an edge as they sort of have a fixed formation.

Peace.

more successfull!!!! not realy!!!! i mean real were knocked out of the CL Semi Finals, and the spanish cup they won the league!!!! Valencia had nothing they finished third in their league and were knocked out of the CL quarter finals!!!! ac milan u can argue they won two trophies we won one!!! but don't forget they won it from us on penalties!!!! and we were suffering from the suspension of Nedved!!!

look at what happened to AC MILAN in the league! they started great tearing any team they play against apart!!! but then coaches such as del niri and cosmi who are good talented and smart coaches were able to read their game and beat them!!!! close to the end of the season milan had a terrible run as they were too predictable!!! when u are unpredictable you are more feared as the opponent does not know what to expect on the field!!!! that is my opinion after all!!! what do you guys think?

 

[s0ftcore]

++ [ originally posted by Primo ] ++
Since the topic of building your little duos, triangles, cliques such as Camo-Thuram, DP-Trez, Davids-Tacchi has been brought up, I'd like to focus on this more.

I think rotating the whole team is a good idea. But I think its important to retain the crux of some of these duos, triangles, cliques and such. For example, we can let the subs play in some games, but at least retain these little duos which would allow them to improve their coordination.

Goals are usually made by a combination of a number of players. It is seldom that the whole team is involved. Real is one good example of this.

So, there should be times when we let the subs play, but retain the DP-DT duo, or put subs in attack, but retain the Camo-Nedved-Appiah triangle, etc.

I think it would be difficult because erm.. it's like a Venn Diagram, one player is in a 2-3 circles. For eg, Camo and Thuram. But Camo is also involved in the Trez circle. Well that's a poor example, because I can't really describe it properly.

++ [ originally posted by KeNgO ] ++



more successfull!!!! not realy!!!! i mean real were knocked out of the CL Semi Finals, and the spanish cup they won the league!!!! Valencia had nothing they finished third in their league and were knocked out of the CL quarter finals!!!! ac milan u can argue they won two trophies we won one!!! but don't forget they won it from us on penalties!!!! and we were suffering from the suspension of Nedved!!!

look at what happened to AC MILAN in the league! they started great tearing any team they play against apart!!! but then coaches such as del niri and cosmi who are good talented and smart coaches were able to read their game and beat them!!!! close to the end of the season milan had a terrible run as they were too predictable!!! when u are unpredictable you are more feared as the opponent does not know what to expect on the field!!!! that is my opinion after all!!! what do you guys think?

i was not talking about just last season, apart from Milan that is. Look at Real's team under their ex-boss, sorry I forgot his name. He sort of played a 4-4-2 diamond throughout his reign as boss of Real. And they managed to win quite a lotta stuff.

Also, Valencia have some what kept the core of their team that made it to 2 CL Finals in a row.

That's what I mean by 'momentum' when you keep the core of a team in place, esp its formation.

 

[KeNgO]

++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++

i was not talking about just last season, apart from Milan that is. Look at Real's team under their ex-boss, sorry I forgot his name. He sort of played a 4-4-2 diamond throughout his reign as boss of Real. And they managed to win quite a lotta stuff.

Also, Valencia have some what kept the core of their team that made it to 2 CL Finals in a row.

That's what I mean by 'momentum' when you keep the core of a team in place, esp its formation.

you do have a point over there!!!! but i still don't agree with you on a fixed formation!!!

BTW the name of real's ex coach is Del Bosque!!!!!

and look at the successfull juve era that won the CL final and made it to two other consecutive finals in the mid 90's!!!!! it was under lippi! no fixed formation!!! and we were feared all over europe!! we were the first team ever to beat manchester united in european compeitions at Old Trafford!!!! we humiliated all of europs elite and were the most feared team on the planet!!!!! it would be easier for the coach to have a fixed formation but it is not better!!!!!!
that is an opinion after all!

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by KeNgO ] ++



more successfull!!!! not realy!!!! i mean real were knocked out of the CL Semi Finals, and the spanish cup they won the league!!!! Valencia had nothing they finished third in their league and were knocked out of the CL quarter finals!!!! ac milan u can argue they won two trophies we won one!!! but don't forget they won it from us on penalties!!!! and we were suffering from the suspension of Nedved!!!

look at what happened to AC MILAN in the league! they started great tearing any team they play against apart!!! but then coaches such as del niri and cosmi who are good talented and smart coaches were able to read their game and beat them!!!! close to the end of the season milan had a terrible run as they were too predictable!!! when u are unpredictable you are more feared as the opponent does not know what to expect on the field!!!! that is my opinion after all!!! what do you guys think?

To be perfectly honest with you I have no idea what you are talking about, if you are talking about last season then Juve should be the least successful of the 3 teams you are talking about because prior to the league starting they were after cl as they had won league season before
Real did not win their league and Milan had won nothing in years, end of season Juve had won league 2 weeks before the season ended and in truth 5 weeks before the season ended, whilst Real regained their title on the last day of the season when it looked like they would end with nothing whilst Milan not only won cl , 3 days later won the italian cup something they had not done in ages
So while we won what we had won 26 times before and not really a thrilling race in the end cos it was not end of season stuff, the other 2 won in more dramatic fashion
As for Nedved we never know if we would have beaten Milan or not with him as we had lost in Milan even when he was playing and still needed penalties to win when he played in the super cup

I totally agree with Slack on what he said and if only Camo could be more consistent ,and, is Thuram getting a bit fed up of going up and down the flanks cos even for France , he does not seem to be that impressive either, surely he is better than Montero as a central defender and is the best all round defender we have anyways

I have always maintained that skilful players are usually on the same wavelength so I don't get suprised to see Dp and Camo combine well , what I would like is for their to be a tandem in the midfield which I have failed to see

 

[KeNgO]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
To be perfectly honest with you I have no idea what you are talking about, failed to see

we are talking about if a fixed formation for a team is better or a formation that is changed by the coach to adapt to different games is better!!!!

we were just using those teams to compare fixed formations for non fixed formations!!!!!

and btw man!!!!
GO EASY ON ME!!!!

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by KeNgO ] ++


we are talking about if a fixed formation for a team is better or a formation that is changed by the coach to adapt to different games is better!!!!

we were just using those teams to compare fixed formations for non fixed formations!!!!!

and btw man!!!!
GO EASY ON ME!!!!

then you both have a point as Del Bosque biggest problem is that he did not rotate enough and too many good or even superb players were left on the bench for too many games doing nothing but he did manage to make the superstars gel which is not hard as I have always belieived gr8 players are always on the same wavelength
Valencia is a good example of not changing too much and still winning
If you wanna do mass rotation , this is the time to do it, beginning of season cos imo after december, stick to your first team almost always

I was not having a go at you, I just did not know whether you meant last season or overall

 

[Primo]

by Softcore:

I think it would be difficult because erm.. it's like a Venn Diagram, one player is in a 2-3 circles. For eg, Camo and Thuram. But Camo is also involved in the Trez circle. Well that's a poor example, because I can't really describe it properly.

Dont worry, I know what you mean. But isn't that good because it means there will be guys who will have regularly playing time, while the others rotate. It means that camo-thuram will not only be able to play when they're together, but also with others. Camo can play the camo-neddy duo while thuram rests. And camo can rest while playing the legro-thuram duo. If they do decide to play together, we can use their tandem as well.

What's important is that for every squad that Lippi takes, there should be at least a tandem/duo that we should be trying to improve on. It's like breaking the whole squad to smaller groups. Improving the teamwork of certain players at the same time as you try to rotate the players.