Juve Attack... (2 Viewers)

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by barkuss ] ++


Cuz 3 players go to mark DP and they leave one on Trez and they know that he cant score then. That was a tactic that everybody used this season....

what? how hard is for u too see.. it is Del Piero who had a bad season.. not Trezeguet..... there is no 3 players marking del piero... it is always 3 players who marks trezeguet... Del piero is so slow by the time he controls the ball there is already players who close in on him..... he needs to many touches to score a goal... not like trezeguet.... i dun understand how u say trez cant score.. being he is out top scorer and all

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Stu]

Remember, Vieri's gonna want high wages...

 

[Stu]

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++



what? how hard is for u too see.. it is Del Piero who had a bad season.. not Trezeguet..... there is no 3 players marking del piero... it is always 3 players who marks trezeguet... Del piero is so slow by the time he controls the ball there is already players who close in on him..... he needs to many touches to score a goal... not like trezeguet.... i dun understand how u say trez cant score.. being he is out top scorer and all

I don't know which games you have been watching but from what I've seen Del Piero has been man-marked to the fullest. Sometimes you'll see him in space after he has made a good off-the-ball run or following a nice move to open up room for him from one of his teammates, but DP is marked more tightly than Trezeguet is.

I won't deny that Trez scores goals, but I disagree when you say that DP "is so slow by the time he controls the ball there is already players who close in on him" because Alex has one of the best first touches in the Juve squad. He isn't fast, I know that, but that doesn't have anything to do with his first touch.

And about him needing too many touches, you've got to be kidding me. You didn't see his goals against Parma, Galatasary, and Ancona which were all one-touch finishes, or versus Lecce and Siena which required only a touch for control and a touch to shoot, did you?

 

[Dominic]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


I sure as hell can deny that Trezeguet is more effective, because that's bullshit. You all want a complete forward who can do everything and finish as well or better than Trezeguet, but there are only two of them out there and niether is for sale. Zlatan isn't perfect, he has his drawbacks, but he's shown that he is immensely talented, and he's versatile. He's definitely a more complete player than Trezeguet and that's what I think we are looking for in a replacement.

Why is it Bullshit that Trezeguet is more effective?

I agree about Zlatan being way more complete though and talented, but just as risky. + IMO one of Zlatan's drawback's is his ineffectiveness.

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
I'm not sure that I concur with that statement. Sonck has 42 appearances, while Mitea has 37, and Sikora has 34. Seems to me that Zlatan is playing ith other forwards a lot, and in that situation, he is the support forward.

I'm very sure here.. As I said before Koeman playes a 4-3-3 formation most of the time with the front line looking like this:

---Mitea/Sikora Zlatan/Anastaciou Sonck/Other winger.

Mitea and Sikora are wingers, non of them are strikers. Koeman persists using Sonck as a winger although he's proven that he's better as centre forward. Zlatan is the main striker.
Zlatan himself as stated on the Dutch television, in order to prove himself for the big clubs, he will need to score more and he will start looking more for the goal. Koeman has backed this up and wants Zlatan to play closer to the opposing goal.

 

[rainhard]

Change the whole team except

Buffon , Del Piero, Zambrotta ,Miccoli ,Maresca.

buy 4 new defenders on 4 different position.

one new play maker ,hopes that from south america. it can be Diego.Strengthen midfield with youngster Daniel Cavalho for LM.
put Zambro at right midfield.and maresca for defensive midfielder.

buy cavenaghi and gilardino,play them in combination with DP and miccoli.wow sounds great.hehehe

for other subs ,carry our talented player in primavera.

Juve will be one of the youngest team in seria A.
maybe we need time to build this team,but for future it would be great.

Peace SaintRainhard

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
Why is it Bullshit that Trezeguet is more effective?

Because Trezeguet is a static striker who has no ablities other than finishing. That means that when the midfield is not operating wonderfully, he sucks. Most of the time, the midfield isn't good enought to supply Trezeguet the balls he needs. It would be a wrong to say that Trezeguet is effective when his is so dependant upon the midfield.

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
I'm very sure here.. As I said before Koeman playes a 4-3-3 formation most of the time with the front line looking like this:

---Mitea/Sikora Zlatan/Anastaciou Sonck/Other winger.

Mitea and Sikora are wingers, non of them are strikers. Koeman persists using Sonck as a winger although he's proven that he's better as centre forward. Zlatan is the main striker.
Zlatan himself as stated on the Dutch television, in order to prove himself for the big clubs, he will need to score more and he will start looking more for the goal. Koeman has backed this up and wants Zlatan to play closer to the opposing goal.

Alright mate, maybe we're talking about this differently. Koeman puts his team out there wing three players on the front line. Wingers play in midfield and forwards play in attack. Mitea and Sikora may be wingers by trade, but when you put them in the attack, they are forwards, and they benefit greatly from Zlatan's service.

 

[#10]

basically total football..ish

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by John #10 ] ++
basically total football..ish

Of course, that's where the misunderstanding lies. Dominic was looking at Koeman's formation as if it played in a classic way, but in Ajax, they play total football and that means that Zlatan can not be and out-and-out striker, because that doe not exist.

 

[Juve_Kosova]

++ [ originally posted by rainhard ] ++
Change the whole team except

Buffon , Del Piero, Zambrotta ,Miccoli ,Maresca.

buy 4 new defenders on 4 different position.

one new play maker ,hopes that from south america. it can be Diego. Strengthen midfield with youngster Daniel Cavalho for LM.
put Zambro at right midfield.and maresca for defensive midfielder.

buy cavenaghi and gilardino,play them in combination with DP and miccoli.wow sounds great .hehehe

for other subs ,carry our talented player in primavera.

Juve will be one of the youngest team in seria A.
maybe we need time to build this team,but for future it would be great.

Peace SaintRainhard

hehe same here... sounds great...

and about Diego, if we dont get him, then Van der vaart, aimar or Deco!!!

 

[Dominic]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


Because Trezeguet is a static striker who has no ablities other than finishing. That means that when the midfield is not operating wonderfully, he sucks. Most of the time, the midfield isn't good enought to supply Trezeguet the balls he needs. It would be a wrong to say that Trezeguet is effective when his is so dependant upon the midfield.

I was talking about begin effective pure statistically.

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
Alright mate, maybe we're talking about this differently. Koeman puts his team out there wing three players on the front line. Wingers play in midfield and forwards play in attack. Mitea and Sikora may be wingers by trade, but when you put them in the attack, they are forwards, and they benefit greatly from Zlatan's service.

Sikora hardly ever playes.
Mitea is purely a left winger and playes to deliver balls to Zlatan, Mitea is not a striker. Winger do not neceassarily play in midfield.

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
Of course, that's where the misunderstanding lies. Dominic was looking at Koeman's formation as if it played in a classic way, but in Ajax, they play total football and that means that Zlatan can not be and out-and-out striker, because that doe not exist.

Ajax' system isn't like total football anymore, today there's hardly any total football in any team. Sure Zlatan sometimes assists, but he IS the point man, the target man for the enitre team. + I actually anilsed the play not the formation diagram itself. I watch Ajax play every week, Zlatan is the point man.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
I was talking about begin effective pure statistically.

Who cares about that?

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
Sikora hardly ever playes.
Mitea is purely a left winger and playes to deliver balls to Zlatan, Mitea is not a striker. Winger do not neceassarily play in midfield.

How does a player who "hardly even plays" get 34 appearances this season? And Mitea is not a pure winger. A winger, by definition is a midfield player who plays wide to the left or right.

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
Ajax' system isn't like total football anymore, today there's hardly any total football in any team. Sure Zlatan sometimes assists, but he IS the point man, the target man for the enitre team. + I actually anilsed the play not the formation diagram itself. I watch Ajax play every week, Zlatan is the point man.

Fine, if you don't want to see what I'm saying, then I can't help you. But, let me just say that being the "traget man" and being an "out-and-out stiker" are a bit different. Target man implies that he must bring down balls played from the midfield and play on to other players making runs off of him. That is what he does and that's why he's not a pure striker.

 

[#10]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++

A winger, by definition is a midfield player who plays wide to the left or right.

breaking from tradition, but originally wingers were mere anyone who played in the attacking side of the pitch on the side, either upfront or midfield.

Zlatan is and isnt a point man, he is officially a point man, but he drift swide, hold the ball up, and start/ links up the play, with the "wingers"feeding off him.

He is the "point" man, but not in the traditional number 9 style.

 

[Dominic]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


Who cares about that?

:groan:

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
How does a player who "hardly even plays" get 34 appearances this season? And Mitea is not a pure winger. A winger, by definition is a midfield player who plays wide to the left or right.

Sikora has been a subsitute 19 times out of the 34. He hardly ever finishes a match.

Also now you're looking purely at the formation, you're saying because they play a 4-3-3 they use three fowards. They use wingers though.

+:

breaking from tradition, but originally wingers were mere anyone who played in the attacking side of the pitch on the side, either upfront or midfield.

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
Fine, if you don't want to see what I'm saying, then I can't help you. But, let me just say that being the "traget man" and being an "out-and-out stiker" are a bit different. Target man implies that he must bring down balls played from the midfield and play on to other players making runs off of him. That is what he does and that's why he's not a pure striker.

You were saying Ajax playes Total football.
Ajax doesn't play total football anymore though...
With Target man I simply implied that the player is the 'target' for the other players.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
Sikora has been a subsitute 19 times out of the 34. He hardly ever finishes a match.

Also now you're looking purely at the formation, you're saying because they play a 4-3-3 they use three fowards. They use wingers though.

Well, you've either got to take it one way or the other. Either they are forwards or they are wingers. You say that Zlatan plays as the lone forward, but that's just not true, especially because of the fluid style which Ajax plays.

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
You were saying Ajax playes Total football.
Ajax doesn't play total football anymore though...
With Target man I simply implied that the player is the 'target' for the other players.

But that's simply not true. Zlatan does not play in the advanced forward role like Trezeguet does. Your argument is based on the assumption that since Zlatan plays in the centre of a 3 man forward line, that he is the target man. In reality, Zlatan drops back to collect balls and distribute as well as going forward to take crosses and through balls from the "wingers" and midfielders. Because he has those other abilities, he would be far more effective that Trezeguet, if he were played in the same way. If you put Zlatan up top and task him only with scoring, then he'll be able ot use his vision, running, and dribbling to score more than to create for other players. Basically, with a player like Zlatan there is a mixture of forward and playmaker in him, and with Ajax, the mixture is something like 50-50. My assertion is that if we asked him to change the balance to 70-30 in favour of scoring, he would score a lot more goals.

 

[Dominic]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


Well, you've either got to take it one way or the other. Either they are forwards or they are wingers. You say that Zlatan plays as the lone forward, but that's just not true, especially because of the fluid style which Ajax plays.

No it's not true. The wingers play a very advanced role.

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
But that's simply not true. Zlatan does not play in the advanced forward role like Trezeguet does. Your argument is based on the assumption that since Zlatan plays in the centre of a 3 man forward line, that he is the target man. In reality, Zlatan drops back to collect balls and distribute as well as going forward to take crosses and through balls from the "wingers" and midfielders. Because he has those other abilities, he would be far more effective that Trezeguet, if he were played in the same way. If you put Zlatan up top and task him only with scoring, then he'll be able ot use his vision, running, and dribbling to score more than to create for other players. Basically, with a player like Zlatan there is a mixture of forward and playmaker in him, and with Ajax, the mixture is something like 50-50. My assertion is that if we asked him to change the balance to 70-30 in favour of scoring, he would score a lot more goals.

No! My arguement is not based on the formation. Like i've stated so many times now, i see Ajax play every week!! Yes he drops back to collect the ball and he playes in the build up. But he has the most advanced role in the team. I don't agree about Zlatan being a playmaker though, sure he's a dribbler etc. He does not control the play and he's not a real passer.
As I also stated before, Zlatan wants to score more and play in an role closer to the opposing goal and Koeman has aknowledged this and plays him in a very advanced role. Still he doesn't score THAT much.

--
On the other hand, Zlatan would be just as riksy as the other buys:

Bonera, he's just not good enough.
Ferrari, inconsistent. Sure he is great at the moment, Parma concede a lot of goals too though. + he had a bad start to the season.
Kapo, we just bought him because he is free. There are much better omf's or left wingers out there.
Gilardino, could possible be just a one season wonder. Could turn out to be another Di Vaio.
Vieri.
1. Old
2. Expensive
3. Moans
4. Will be in Gilardino's way.
5. Over the top?


All in all:
I'd like all those player, I just think they might not be good enough...

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Oh no, 2 threads already and it's flooded with Ian vs Dominic

Many can create for Juve - Miccoli, Zambrotta, Camoranesi, Del Piero, Maresca, Nedved and the list will go on should Juve buy other creative player(s) for next season

And you have that one lad on the pitch, David Trezeguet, to finish everything off which he does. Trez is meant to be served and by that he returns the favour. People feed him the ball, he finishes it perfectly. He does the job. He has to stay.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
No! My arguement is not based on the formation. Like i've stated so many times now, i see Ajax play every week!! Yes he drops back to collect the ball and he playes in the build up. But he has the most advanced role in the team. I don't agree about Zlatan being a playmaker though, sure he's a dribbler etc. He does not control the play and he's not a real passer.
As I also stated before, Zlatan wants to score more and play in an role closer to the opposing goal and Koeman has aknowledged this and plays him in a very advanced role. Still he doesn't score THAT much.

If you acknowlege that he drops back, then how can you call him an out-and-out striker? I don't understand that dicotomy.

But, I guess this is just a matter of opinion. It seems to me that even if Zlatan is the most advanced player on the pitch for Ajax, that doesn't necessarily make him the target man, nor does it mean that he is an out-and-out striker. I don't see why he can't be the most advanced player, but still play a role like that of Del Piero in our team, or Saviola from Barca. BTW, if he's not a real passer, than he's a damn fine fake one...

 

[Dominic]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


If you acknowlege that he drops back, then how can you call him an out-and-out striker? I don't understand that dicotomy.

But, I guess this is just a matter of opinion. It seems to me that even if Zlatan is the most advanced player on the pitch for Ajax, that doesn't necessarily make him the target man, nor does it mean that he is an out-and-out striker. I don't see why he can't be the most advanced player, but still play a role like that of Del Piero in our team, or Saviola from Barca. BTW, if he's not a real passer, than he's a damn fine fake one...

Well I DO think Zlatan could play the role of a support striker even in an advanced role. Del Piero would probably score more yes, but still I think Zlatan wouldn't score as much from play from the other players. thus less effective. Although he might just turn out to be a good goalscorer. I beleive that Zlatan is one of the most risky, yet talented, players out there to buy.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++
I don't understand that dicotomy.

As a native English speaker, you put me to shame :down:

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++
Well I DO think Zlatan could play the role of a support striker even in an advanced role. Del Piero would probably score more yes, but still I think Zlatan wouldn't score as much from play from the other players. thus less effective. Although he might just turn out to be a good goalscorer. I beleive that Zlatan is one of the most risky, yet talented, players out there to buy.

I think we've finally found some common ground, if it is only uncertainty. No one can really tell how many goals Zlatan will score. He obviously has the ability to be a great scorer or to take over from Del Piero and be a complete forward both scornig and creating...but all is uncertain.