Italian Football in Decline? (3 Viewers)

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
#21
I think all the points made are valid. For me however, this portion says it all: Much of Capello's hefty transfer budget has been invested in veterans. Short-term success has been guaranteed, and when replacements are required - and Patrick Vieira's five-year contract looks ever more inadvisable - Capello will have traded in Juve and the Agnellis for another generous benefactor.

Clearly, the short term approach is going to cost us dear. Not just in terms of results, but an unhealthy future as well. Capello should take much of the brunt, because he in reality doesn't care about Juventus - the football club. He cares about the Juventus team he's coaching. The one that will or will not win titles under his reign. With the squad's average age of 29, Capello has proven that he not only lacks the ability to nurture youngsters, he's also not interested in doing so, given his intentions of moving on in the near future. That isnt the sign of a great coach, it's the mark of a mercenary.

On to the broader team structure and gameplay. It's more than evident that Juventus has slipped into a comfort zone of the Serie A and the Scudetto that comes with it. There seems to be a lack of willingness to take a risk and adjust to the more cosmopolitan European style because that would not suit us in Italy. Unfortunately, the coach himself is the one who propogates such thought, and it's little wonder we've lost in an almost identical fashion two years running, in Europe.

As for the players themselves. I'm not entirely convinced that Zlatan is the one who should be sold. In fact, I think the root of Zlatan's problems lie in Capello's head. What he should let happen, is let Zlatan play a natural, carefree game that comes to him and not try and force Zlatan to be a sequel to Van Basten. If Ibrahimovic is not confined to Capello's ideas and tactics I think he still has the time on his hands to go on and improve. If things are going to remain the way they currently are, I dont see us making any headway in Europe next season, and maybe not even in Italy, given how predictable we've become.

Again, touching upon the first point, I think Moggi and co., must see the need of the hour and not give Capello the freedom of choice, as he's enjoyed for the previous two seasons. They must impose themselves and go back to their ideas of old. The ones that saw them draft in youngsters who play with passion and go on to become the kind of stars the world enjoys watching. The answers to our problems are not the Gerrards, Christiano Ronaldos and Eto'os of the world. They are the little known Italians or South Americans who are watching television sets in cubbyhole rooms hoping to catch a glimpse of some football action and player techniques before they walk 10 kms to the ground for practice at 6 am in the morning.

A scudetto last year and maybe one this year are in effect, eclipsing what the reality truly is. Juventus is losing that mentality, passion and effervescent spirit they've embodied for a better part of their history. Why? Simply because of an inept coach who's in love with his success. One, who's ideas are older than the club itself.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Aug 26, 2003
4,187
#23
i agree with you Baggio! I think years ago Juve was known for making good players to stars, but now it seems we are buying stars (Vieira, ..) Yes we should go back to the roots and bring in new young willing players !
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#24
Mr. Gol said:
At the moment Serie A is going through a hard time because Roma and Lazio are nowhere near champions pace. In a few years they, and Fiorentina and maybe even Palermo, will be outsiders for the title.
How, may I ask, do you reach that conclusion especially about Roma and Lazio? I'd love for you to be right, but what I see is a steady decline from here on because I highly doubt they'll have the money to replace the likes of Totti, Mancini, Oddo etc when they leave/retire. Palermo and Fiorentina on the other hand are but two of the many clubs who have translated an initial enthusiasm into good results but may or may not maintain that in the long term.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#27
If you are comparing seriea to what it was then i agree with the article but if we are comparing it to other leagues then the article is absolute crap. If serieA is in decline what are we gonna say about the rest of the leagues? In France apart from Lyon, the other teams are not worth talking about at all. In Germany, the cream of the crop came a cropper against 2 Italian sides. In England, man united are making a fist of it for the title but in theier midfield they have Giggs in the middle with O'shea or Fletcher, and are 7 points behind a Chelsea side who are just toying with the rest of the league and they are not even the most inspiring of teams anyways. Arsenal are going thru a transition , there Euro exploits notwithstanding or are we to totally discount their abject failure in Europe prior to this season? Man united came last in their group for crying out loud and Liverpool as holders lost home and away to almighty Benfica.
In Spain , Osasuna are making a fist of it, OSASUNA, apart from Barcelona , the rest are just in an out, Valencia went 7 games without a win very recently and they are still 2nd, Real Madrid go from the sublime to the ridiculous in 2 games

SerieA is not great and thats mainly because the casual observer watches the way Capello and his tactics have disgraced the nation abroad and people just assume if this team can be leading the division by 8 or 9 points , its gotta be absolute crap, so they print what they want and a lot of people will buy it cos if you are not an ardent viewer of serieA, would you not believe a league which Juve of Cl is leading by 9 points or whatever at a given time, is utter crap?
 

C4ISR

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2005
2,362
#28
article reminds me of those annoying english CL announcers. try to act fair and balanced, but they are clearly biased.
 

ZhiXin

Senior Member
Oct 1, 2004
10,321
#29
I can understand what this article is trying to convey and I agree to a certain extent of it.

Juventus, even though still playing great, are not that great compared to the past. This is mainly due to our coach Capello, who I classify him as a celebrity more than a coach. He has traded away loyal players such as Maresca and Tacchinardi. And his performances in the CL has definitely brought Serie A to shame. To a certain extent, the fans of Inter also contribute to the so called downfall in Serie A. Serie A has been humbled by Arsenal and Villarreal, and some reporter even has the cheek to say the EPL is the best league in the world.

As for Inter, their case is always present, it's a matter of time this is reported over and over again

This is a far cry from the 7 sisters era, of which includes Juventus, Milan, Inter, Fiorentina, Roma, Parma and Lazio. However due to some finance problems, the latter 4 has shown decline, but right now Fiorentina and Roma have shown progress. The same cannot be said for Parma and Lazio. The quality of players r never the same compared to the past, just like the saying, the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer.

But some facts are obviously overlooked.

1 should definitely take a look at Roma, whose players play with great determination and grit and won 11 consecutive victories without a recognised striker. They r still doing great at this stage, and a large part of it goes to Spalletti. Roma also gives chanes to their home grown stars with the names of Daniele De Rossi and Alberto Aqualini, with Rosi, Okaka, Bovo and Curci lining up to start. It seems that the latter 2 will be away from Roma to get experience

Fiorentina is also starting with Prandelli at helm to an impressive 5th stage. The squad has boosted some young talent and of course names like Fiore and Toni, scorer of 27 goals in a domestic Italian league.

Milan always perform great in the CL, barring performances from the Deportivo game, 2004- 2005 CL final and the starting stages of this round's CL. When pitting against a giant, they always do the best and give the Italian game some pride. For example, the 4 - 1 demolishing of Bayern. Milan has always reach the crucial stages of the CL. This is definitely some of the highlights. Also no1 paid attention to the 2002 - 2003 CL Final, where Juventus and Milan, 2 Italian giants, pit against each other. Back then a seemingly weaker Juventus side defeated a Real Madrid side which is impossible to beat.

And 1 thing that is obviously overlooked is the number of legends in today's football. Just how many Del Pieros, Maldinis, Costacurtas, Shevchenkos or to a certain extent Totti (I'm turned from hating him to liking him) who offer their fighting spirit and brought joy and tears for their club, surfaced in today's football? Very rare. They r Italian players. I think I should mention Shearer as well. Sure some people can say that Puyol, Raul, Xavi or Terry is their icon for their club, but the fact is that there r more players that I mentioned come from Serie A. And another thing that is left out is that Milan and Juventus r friends. Do u see media coverage of Juventus and Milan directors going head to head? Players from both sides hug each other at the end of the game, and the most evident is Shevchenko hugging Del Piero. This is a sight that makes Serie A attractive.

EPL is great due to the presence of Chelsea surpassing the already strong Arsenal and Manchester United. Everybody loves to see Chelsea win and obviously don't get a damn about the leaders in the other domestic leagues. Come on, compare facts, Arsenal got a crap group in the CL if they think the EPL is the best, how come Man U is knocked out so early with such a crap group? Or last season champions Liverpool humbled by a Benfica? I wonder what they will say when Milan, Barca or even Lyon kicked their ass bad. How come no1 rushed to Arsenal's defence when they were kicked in the ass by Bayern in last season's CL and praised Chelsea? That's right, media biasness

As denco said, Osasuna, an unknown team gets 4th place in the La Liga and no1 commented on it? All I can say is Villarreal will be a developing Spanish side.

So can we say that Spanish football is in decline and English football is growing? Hardly. It is just personal perception.
 

ZhiXin

Senior Member
Oct 1, 2004
10,321
#30
Desmond said:
How, may I ask, do you reach that conclusion especially about Roma and Lazio? I'd love for you to be right, but what I see is a steady decline from here on because I highly doubt they'll have the money to replace the likes of Totti, Mancini, Oddo etc when they leave/retire. Palermo and Fiorentina on the other hand are but two of the many clubs who have translated an initial enthusiasm into good results but may or may not maintain that in the long term.
I can say that for Fiorentina, but I still have doubts on Palermo. Who knows Zamparini may make another grave mistake again? I think that if he didn't sell Toni, they could become another Villarreal in the making. And they have a coach known as Gigi Del Neri that made the team look so stupid. But I'm still optimistic about Palermo though. Just wait for next season.

To the threadstarter, the article is extracted from soccernet, a biased English football website. Hardly surprising that these articles come out.
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
#31
baggio said:
I think all the points made are valid. For me however, this portion says it all: Much of Capello's hefty transfer budget has been invested in veterans. Short-term success has been guaranteed, and when replacements are required - and Patrick Vieira's five-year contract looks ever more inadvisable - Capello will have traded in Juve and the Agnellis for another generous benefactor.

Clearly, the short term approach is going to cost us dear. Not just in terms of results, but an unhealthy future as well. Capello should take much of the brunt, because he in reality doesn't care about Juventus - the football club. He cares about the Juventus team he's coaching. The one that will or will not win titles under his reign. With the squad's average age of 29, Capello has proven that he not only lacks the ability to nurture youngsters, he's also not interested in doing so, given his intentions of moving on in the near future. That isnt the sign of a great coach, it's the mark of a mercenary.

On to the broader team structure and gameplay. It's more than evident that Juventus has slipped into a comfort zone of the Serie A and the Scudetto that comes with it. There seems to be a lack of willingness to take a risk and adjust to the more cosmopolitan European style because that would not suit us in Italy. Unfortunately, the coach himself is the one who propogates such thought, and it's little wonder we've lost in an almost identical fashion two years running, in Europe.

As for the players themselves. I'm not entirely convinced that Zlatan is the one who should be sold. In fact, I think the root of Zlatan's problems lie in Capello's head. What he should let happen, is let Zlatan play a natural, carefree game that comes to him and not try and force Zlatan to be a sequel to Van Basten. If Ibrahimovic is not confined to Capello's ideas and tactics I think he still has the time on his hands to go on and improve. If things are going to remain the way they currently are, I dont see us making any headway in Europe next season, and maybe not even in Italy, given how predictable we've become.

Again, touching upon the first point, I think Moggi and co., must see the need of the hour and not give Capello the freedom of choice, as he's enjoyed for the previous two seasons. They must impose themselves and go back to their ideas of old. The ones that saw them draft in youngsters who play with passion and go on to become the kind of stars the world enjoys watching. The answers to our problems are not the Gerrards, Christiano Ronaldos and Eto'os of the world. They are the little known Italians or South Americans who are watching television sets in cubbyhole rooms hoping to catch a glimpse of some football action and player techniques before they walk 10 kms to the ground for practice at 6 am in the morning.

A scudetto last year and maybe one this year are in effect, eclipsing what the reality truly is. Juventus is losing that mentality, passion and effervescent spirit they've embodied for a better part of their history. Why? Simply because of an inept coach who's in love with his success. One, who's ideas are older than the club itself.
valid points there , great post +rep

here is wat i think...

i agree about our mentality changing, since cap tookover here. I dont like it one bit, as this the players lost the passion for pulling the shirt of juve.
And i agree that low key players r the solution not the gerrards or decos or ettoos of the world.

-and about cap not being someone who builds a team, i think that only happend here in juve as in Roma he got many players for the future.And he did stay there for 5 yrs.However i dont think he will stay here that long, as his transfer system doesnot show it .
 

ZhiXin

Senior Member
Oct 1, 2004
10,321
#32
A very good example is to look at Roma, with players that r home-grown. Maybe Juventus should change its policy to nurturing home grown talents instead. Also Capello's tactics r rather old-fashioned

But the good thing is, at least Roma and Fiorentina r back and I would like to see what happen next season
 
Jul 5, 2005
2,653
#33
eringi said:
. An emphasis on Serie A has blinded Juventus, in particular, to the change of pace of European football, whether Arsenal's breathtaking speed or Barcelona's effortless ability to change gears.

THAT'S THE BIG TRUTH OF THIS ARTICLE THAT YOU DONT GIVE ANY SENCE.
 
Jul 5, 2005
2,653
#34
eringi said:
. An emphasis on Serie A has blinded Juventus, in particular, to the change of pace of European football, whether Arsenal's breathtaking speed or Barcelona's effortless ability to change gears.

THAT'S THE BIG TRUTH OF THIS ARTICLE THAT YOU DONT GIVE ANY SENCE.
 

vimo

Senior Member
Apr 1, 2006
1,042
#35
I do agree with most points of the thread-starting article. Of course one cannot generalise a whole league for some teams (or coach's) performances. I mean; compare to Milan; they do really well in CL! As for Juve; I cannot imagine our team bashing away bayern with a 4-1. This just sounds unreal for juve. Now you can say "It's not our game to play that offensive"; or "A 1-0 would have been the same" but thats not the point.
I already said something similar in another thread; if you want to be World-Elite, you have to be able to do more than the standart 4-4-2 in hope to get somehow a chance to score a goal. (think about werder, to me, the tactics seemed like that)

Now if you look for the reasons of this it clearly has to do something with capello. I mean, he is not a bad coach. What he has done with roma was not nothing, do not forget that. He has proven he can do something. But the recent performances show there is something wrong with the team attitude.
In my opinion, you cannot simply blame ibrahimovic or even vieira. As for Ibra; I think he is having a really hard time. In the last games he had to play positions which simply do not fit to him. He made crosses (horrible ones, i agree) but what do you expect? He is a plain striker!
Vieira on the other hand cannot be blamed at all in my opinion. For a first season-player i even think he performed rather well. I mean it is not that simple to change from EPL to Serie A but hey, he did it!

Conclusion: Is Serie A in decline? This question cannot be answered by a Yes or a No. It is just that I fear that Serie A teams do concentrate much more on the scudetto and do not progress in their tactics. I do not know a Serie A team who plays really modern, fast football. But i do not want to judge if it is not even perhaps better not to change the mind and stick to this... lets call it "Italian Way to play soccer"
I just hope that Juve finds some skilled people (not necessarily all those stars) who can make Juve progress. Because at the moment, I could immagine Juve playing against a team whom i would call to world-elite. In front of a team like Barca, Chelsea, etc. Juve would not have the slightest chance in my opinion.
 
Sep 28, 2002
13,975
#36
ZhiXin said:
And 1 thing that is obviously overlooked is the number of legends in today's football. Just how many Del Pieros, Maldinis, Costacurtas, Shevchenkos or to a certain extent Totti (I'm turned from hating him to liking him) who turned down loads of cash just to stay in their clubs and offer their 100%, surfaced in today's football?
im sorry but this is wrong. "to certain extent totti"? only totti rejected big cash to stay with a relatively small club. others are getting millions because their clubs are among the biggest in the world
 

ZhiXin

Senior Member
Oct 1, 2004
10,321
#37
Fliakis said:
im sorry but this is wrong. "to certain extent totti"? only totti rejected big cash to stay with a relatively small club. others are getting millions because their clubs are among the biggest in the world
the main thing is, how many players r willing to stay by their clubs and fight for them no matter what happens. Maybe I better rephrase it
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,618
#38
Mr. Gol said:
At the moment Serie A is going through a hard time because Roma and Lazio are nowhere near champions pace. In a few years they, and Fiorentina and maybe even Palermo, will be outsiders for the title. Serie A, EPL and La Liga will always be comparible in terms of quality. Serie A having the most top teams, EPL having the best 'other' teams and La Liga being somewhere in between.

after watching EPL and Serie A for some time now, i've realised that Italians are quite defensive, whereas EPL teams are very aggressive and create a lot of chances for themselves.

and i think the defensiveness of juve and maybe other teams too is leading to it's decline.

i remember ESPN and star sports used to show Serie A matches live almost 4-5 years ago. i guess the started focusssing on EPL for it was more exciting.

Serie A has many good teams and great players. only their menatlity has to change. then i guess everything will be fine.
 

Intro

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2005
560
#39
redshift_rider said:
after watching EPL and Serie A for some time now, i've realised that Italians are quite defensive, whereas EPL teams are very aggressive and create a lot of chances for themselves.

and i think the defensiveness of juve and maybe other teams too is leading to it's decline.

i remember ESPN and star sports used to show Serie A matches live almost 4-5 years ago. i guess the started focusssing on EPL for it was more exciting.

Serie A has many good teams and great players. only their menatlity has to change. then i guess everything will be fine.
I don't think the football in Italy is defensive nor is that in the EPL attacking or entertaining - unless you consider high-balls and crosses as that.

Here's what I wrote before on this forum:

All 3 major league have their problems:

Italy:
Good:
- Elite; Juve, Milan and Inter's consistency which is also being transferred to CL.
- Wide range of tactics employed make for interesting encounters.

Bad:
- Weak sides especially this year haven't helped the league which has taken on 4 tiers.
- Relationships between clubs - no need to say any more as this is a Juventus forum. No - really just the end-of-season 'fixes' we always get.

Spain:
Good:
- Barcelona.
- Football; entertaining and technical.

Bad:
- No challengers or tactically astute managers to highlight Rijkaard's inept tactics.
- The fall of Real, Valencia, Deportivo which add to unstability at the top of the league and CL representation.

England:
Good:
- For a league which isn't the most tactical - it has the highest profile coaches compared to Italy and Spain. The 'Fantastic Four' of Mourinho, Wenger, Ferguson and Benitez make for intruiging comment always.
- Entertainment? Subjective - in my view not at all but the masses seem to think so.

Bad:
- Lack of variety; all teams play 4-4-2 or some variant of it. Now the trend is 4-5-1.
- English media and their lack of intelligence on football in general.
 
Jul 5, 2005
2,653
#40
Great post Intro. I totally agree.

I want to add that the other big championships of Spain and England have bring up to date with todays contemporary football and from the other hand Italy had not made any pace for this.
 

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