[ITA] Serie A 2010/2011 (45 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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It's true, teams like Inter, Juve and Milan should be strong, with Roma next and Udinese, Napoli, Fiorentina and the like providing the supporting cast. Alas, Serie A does not have the 'seven sisters' anymore, it barely even has one sister. The points you make are one of the reasons why. I think you slightly underestimate how poor the top clubs in Serie A are. Moratti has hundreds of millions of euros debt through this club, Berlusconi has to drip feed Milan to keep them anywhere near a competitive level, and we all know what has happened with Roma, Lazio and the like. Juve basically have the role that a 4th placed team has, but at least we have some kind of vision on the financial side.
That's why the should go Foreign, world class like Aguero, Benzema, Ibra, Pastore, Snachez, Tevez, Vargas, VDW, Robben etc
OP
Being poor will only become a reflection after financial fair play but so far I refuse to believe that clubs aren't rich.
Everybody was stating that Berluska was poor, yet we've seen massive moves in January and everyone was shocked. Inter will make big investments in the summer while Roma could bring new potential stars as well now.
Is Juve poor? Well, maybe. But money is not always the issue you know. We did spend around 300-400mln euros since Calciopoli, no? I think we did, if not more. That only implies one thing - mismanagement. Too much cash was thrown away with no profit made whatsoever, wrong players were bought far too many times while even worse, we couldn't make half of that money from the sales (Tiago still being an example to follow). We're yet to spend over 30 millions on Pepe, Quag/Matri, Aquilani and who knows, maybe even somebody else who's on the current loan. Does that say we're poor, I don't think so. Still, after that we should expect players arriving and additional 20mln will be spend at least. That means over 50mln only for players, THIS summer. To sum it up, we DO have the money but we still keep on buying the wrong players. We missed out on many players and it will bite our ass sooner or later. Look at Porto's signings and how they do in Europe even if they don't look at their 'weak' league. There are amazing players available for less than 8 mln euros but we tend to pick the other ones.
Pepe 7-8mln
Martinez 12mln
Bonucci 15mln
Matri 16mln
Montolivo 15mln
None of those are worth that much and for that sum there are better players on the market. So yeah, I wouldn't call us poor but more like a club that doesn't have the right management. We didn't opt for <5mln Pereira when we badly needed a left back. We WOULD pay a lot of cash for Montolivo or Aquilani now, but we've refused Hernanes for 9mln euros and those mistakes make the club fall apart. No 'poor' club would invest over 150mln euros on a new stadium. Of course, somebody will say "we'll get more money from it, TV revenue and such" - that all is true, but the invested cash shows we're a club who has money.
Everybody was stating that Berluska was poor, yet we've seen massive moves in January and everyone was shocked. Inter will make big investments in the summer while Roma could bring new potential stars as well now.
Is Juve poor? Well, maybe. But money is not always the issue you know. We did spend around 300-400mln euros since Calciopoli, no? I think we did, if not more. That only implies one thing - mismanagement. Too much cash was thrown away with no profit made whatsoever, wrong players were bought far too many times while even worse, we couldn't make half of that money from the sales (Tiago still being an example to follow). We're yet to spend over 30 millions on Pepe, Quag/Matri, Aquilani and who knows, maybe even somebody else who's on the current loan. Does that say we're poor, I don't think so. Still, after that we should expect players arriving and additional 20mln will be spend at least. That means over 50mln only for players, THIS summer. To sum it up, we DO have the money but we still keep on buying the wrong players. We missed out on many players and it will bite our ass sooner or later. Look at Porto's signings and how they do in Europe even if they don't look at their 'weak' league. There are amazing players available for less than 8 mln euros but we tend to pick the other ones.
Pepe 7-8mln
Martinez 12mln
Bonucci 15mln
Matri 16mln
Montolivo 15mln
None of those are worth that much and for that sum there are better players on the market. So yeah, I wouldn't call us poor but more like a club that doesn't have the right management. We didn't opt for <5mln Pereira when we badly needed a left back. We WOULD pay a lot of cash for Montolivo or Aquilani now, but we've refused Hernanes for 9mln euros and those mistakes make the club fall apart. No 'poor' club would invest over 150mln euros on a new stadium. Of course, somebody will say "we'll get more money from it, TV revenue and such" - that all is true, but the invested cash shows we're a club who has money.
Bah, we were out of it anyway. The Udinese win was bad because they beat Milan's main rival, for nothing else.
But I'm taking the positive out of it and the fact that Udinese are again only 1 point behind Lazio. I hope the Romans never make CL again and I hope they lose it in the last round, in a rainy day and unplayable conditions in the provincial Lecce.
But I'm taking the positive out of it and the fact that Udinese are again only 1 point behind Lazio. I hope the Romans never make CL again and I hope they lose it in the last round, in a rainy day and unplayable conditions in the provincial Lecce.
the problem is that a "good scouting system" comes with, or rather means, buying lots of young unproven players for little money and giving them the playing time and patience for them to develop into the new star players of tomorrow ... some of them will turn into those star players and repay that patience and investment ... for every single player who turns out to be a success, however, there are 10 others who will never become anything more than average ... it's more a question of trial and error and being able to do many trials before one turns out to be successful than any of the smaller clubs really having a superior scouting system to those of Milan, Juve, Inter, etc.
Mid-table teams can afford to do these trials and errors,which usually involve small investments. In fact, their financial success and sole existence depends on it ... big clubs however, with all the big expectations and pressure to win NOW, cannot and have to rely on investing in already proven players, who of course cost a lot ... of course there is the occasional exception to the rule but that's usually how it goes
Mid-table teams can afford to do these trials and errors,which usually involve small investments. In fact, their financial success and sole existence depends on it ... big clubs however, with all the big expectations and pressure to win NOW, cannot and have to rely on investing in already proven players, who of course cost a lot ... of course there is the occasional exception to the rule but that's usually how it goes
I'm talking about Roma in the past few years of course, not Roma of the future....No, I don't think we spent that much. Yes we have been mismanaged, but that's a culmination of different boards and directors.
I hear a lot about these amazing players but I doubt they'd be anywhere near as amazing at this Juve. Expectant fans, legends plastered over every hallway, the negative mindset and motivated opponents weight heavy on a player. Teams play Juve the name, but we are close to that team anymore. As I've said many times, if you want to buy young talents then first remember we can sign only one non-EU (this is ignored over and over), and be prepared to sit tight for some time. Will fans? Probably not.
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There might be better players (I'd like to see a list and then it quantified as to how they would be better), but worth is calculated by the selling club. If an €8m player from Portugal was Italian and played for Udinese he could be worth €25m, that is his value. Just because the same level player is worth €8m in Portugal it doesn't make his value in Italy the same and that this club are going to sell him to you for that price. The same would be the case in other leading leagues, look at transfers like Mario Gomez. If you want to shop abroad then fine, but that are pros and cons to all transfers, there is nothing assured just because of talent.
Yes, you do have to consider how much money comes in from advertising, sponsorship and funding. Whether that comes back in 15 years it still returns, but it does impact on spending, as clubs like Arsenal have seen.
I hear a lot about these amazing players but I doubt they'd be anywhere near as amazing at this Juve. Expectant fans, legends plastered over every hallway, the negative mindset and motivated opponents weight heavy on a player. Teams play Juve the name, but we are close to that team anymore. As I've said many times, if you want to buy young talents then first remember we can sign only one non-EU (this is ignored over and over), and be prepared to sit tight for some time. Will fans? Probably not.
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There might be better players (I'd like to see a list and then it quantified as to how they would be better), but worth is calculated by the selling club. If an €8m player from Portugal was Italian and played for Udinese he could be worth €25m, that is his value. Just because the same level player is worth €8m in Portugal it doesn't make his value in Italy the same and that this club are going to sell him to you for that price. The same would be the case in other leading leagues, look at transfers like Mario Gomez. If you want to shop abroad then fine, but that are pros and cons to all transfers, there is nothing assured just because of talent.
Yes, you do have to consider how much money comes in from advertising, sponsorship and funding. Whether that comes back in 15 years it still returns, but it does impact on spending, as clubs like Arsenal have seen.
OP
Depends, which players and what age.
Some players are born leaders and with quality, and they don't need much time to settle in. Let's not forget it's Manchester United who kept playing C.Ronaldo at the age of 18-19, Messi at Barcelona and Hamsik, Pastore at their current clubs. Those aren't weak teams but nonetheless, proven young players never take too much time to settle in and those players are well known. It's the style of thinking that keeps Italy backwards. Look at the management, coaches and even people from Italy, they an implemented mind-set of how their primary focus exactly is experience. Did you see the new bullshit recently? Some guy said how Pastore is too young for Serie A and it's exactly what happens literally and how clubs do think. Nobody will go after Kwadwo now, but every club will rush in to buy the mediocre Montolivo for the same amount of money, while Asamoah will go aboard and become three times better player. Nobody will go after Sakho, but for Bonucci and you know what's the reason? Well, Bonucci has the
Serie A experience
We skipped on Hamsik for 6mln euros but we signed the "proven" Almiron and Tiago, look what happened later. Almiron flopped badly while Tiago lurked every single penny from Juve's bank. Piqué was pretty normal but they kept on playing him and look what happened.
Everyone laughs at Sanchez. Maybe not now, but they did so many times. He was being called a trick pony, but it seems they keep their mouth shut now. He always had the potential and he's turning into amazing player. So what does proven means? That unproven Sanchez would make this Juve look different this year but most of the clubs prefer the "workhorse" such as Pepe who offers nothing literally, simply a good bench player. Unproven Hamsik was always better than Tiago, Almiron, Marchisio. Unproven Cavani was far more useful than Iaquinta.
Mourinho at Porto signed 13 players when they were third. Season after, half of those players were worth over 15mln euros and they ended up with a CL in their hands. All of those were inexperienced and unproven players. Now they are one of the best defenders Pepe, one of the best defenders at Chelsea - Carvalho, Deco who was amazing, Lisandro who banged in goals like there's no tomorrow, Bruno Alves and many more. Chelsea took a "risk" with Luiz and started playing him right away, he will become one of the best defenders.
Dortmund - Subotic, Hummels, Götze and Barrios have wiped the floor with experienced Bayern and they will win the title. Their transfers were written at a sum of 18.5mln while Bayern's was 118mln euros.
It's crystal clear that clubs in Italy are doing a weird job with the money they posses and it's clearly seen in Europe as they even lost the 4th CL spot.
Some players are born leaders and with quality, and they don't need much time to settle in. Let's not forget it's Manchester United who kept playing C.Ronaldo at the age of 18-19, Messi at Barcelona and Hamsik, Pastore at their current clubs. Those aren't weak teams but nonetheless, proven young players never take too much time to settle in and those players are well known. It's the style of thinking that keeps Italy backwards. Look at the management, coaches and even people from Italy, they an implemented mind-set of how their primary focus exactly is experience. Did you see the new bullshit recently? Some guy said how Pastore is too young for Serie A and it's exactly what happens literally and how clubs do think. Nobody will go after Kwadwo now, but every club will rush in to buy the mediocre Montolivo for the same amount of money, while Asamoah will go aboard and become three times better player. Nobody will go after Sakho, but for Bonucci and you know what's the reason? Well, Bonucci has the
Serie A experience We skipped on Hamsik for 6mln euros but we signed the "proven" Almiron and Tiago, look what happened later. Almiron flopped badly while Tiago lurked every single penny from Juve's bank. Piqué was pretty normal but they kept on playing him and look what happened.
Everyone laughs at Sanchez. Maybe not now, but they did so many times. He was being called a trick pony, but it seems they keep their mouth shut now. He always had the potential and he's turning into amazing player. So what does proven means? That unproven Sanchez would make this Juve look different this year but most of the clubs prefer the "workhorse" such as Pepe who offers nothing literally, simply a good bench player. Unproven Hamsik was always better than Tiago, Almiron, Marchisio. Unproven Cavani was far more useful than Iaquinta.
Mourinho at Porto signed 13 players when they were third. Season after, half of those players were worth over 15mln euros and they ended up with a CL in their hands. All of those were inexperienced and unproven players. Now they are one of the best defenders Pepe, one of the best defenders at Chelsea - Carvalho, Deco who was amazing, Lisandro who banged in goals like there's no tomorrow, Bruno Alves and many more. Chelsea took a "risk" with Luiz and started playing him right away, he will become one of the best defenders.
Dortmund - Subotic, Hummels, Götze and Barrios have wiped the floor with experienced Bayern and they will win the title. Their transfers were written at a sum of 18.5mln while Bayern's was 118mln euros.
It's crystal clear that clubs in Italy are doing a weird job with the money they posses and it's clearly seen in Europe as they even lost the 4th CL spot.
that's sort of the issue - there is no magic trick to picking out which youths are gonna become the real deal and which wont - a big team cannot have an army of youth players being loaned out to other teams, it's just not very realistic.
As for Arsenal, well, they have indeed turned out some great youth players but many of the youngsters they bought were already expensive and they had to pay 15-20 mil for them - Van Persie, Henry, Rosicky, Nasri, etc. ... the point is that many of these players,while young, had already appeared on the radar of the big european teams and that meant they would cost a lot already by the time they came to Arsenal (not sure I would count them as "scouted") ... sure, there is the occasional Fabregas but most of these players are indeed nothing more than decent to good players, rarely more than that let alone great ones, and that has cost Arsenal over the years in the form of missing out on titles to the point of where even Arsenal fans have become fed up with Wenger's approach.
As for Arsenal, well, they have indeed turned out some great youth players but many of the youngsters they bought were already expensive and they had to pay 15-20 mil for them - Van Persie, Henry, Rosicky, Nasri, etc. ... the point is that many of these players,while young, had already appeared on the radar of the big european teams and that meant they would cost a lot already by the time they came to Arsenal (not sure I would count them as "scouted") ... sure, there is the occasional Fabregas but most of these players are indeed nothing more than decent to good players, rarely more than that let alone great ones, and that has cost Arsenal over the years in the form of missing out on titles to the point of where even Arsenal fans have become fed up with Wenger's approach.
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