[ITA] Serie A 2010/2011 (46 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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as "acmilan" wrote, the tactic is getting many prospects and playing them all or a majority of them and not like you mention playing one prospect in messi or c.ronaldo. if you buy many prospects how would you know which of them will improve drastically by match practise ? so you play many of them, that is their strategy opposed to barca or man-u only fielding one player whos performance can actually be dragged by the rest of the top team.
hamsik and pastore where actually at clubs that where not strong before, imho
it's like always ... improving a crap team is thousand times easier than improving a good team (thats why marotta probably looked better with samp)
for every sanchez there are at least 5 zarates who will destroy your play and make the team mates feel sick about those stubborn selfishness. you can not play many of these type of guys. for udine it worked out, for lazio it didn't, so it was nowhere a sure shot.
dortmunds defense was crap before and with the lack of money they had to bet on that card, but who would you realistically buy now, how is cheap and who would improve on the bonucci/chiellini partnership ? of corse we could try and bring in many full backs just for one to work out, but guess what ... thats what we did ... we tried caceres, motta, traore, ariaudo all of whom did not cost much (or were loaned) and who all flopped... we can not simply keep playing them in the hope for them to improve, because they would significantly weaken us
hamsik and pastore where actually at clubs that where not strong before, imho
it's like always ... improving a crap team is thousand times easier than improving a good team (thats why marotta probably looked better with samp)
for every sanchez there are at least 5 zarates who will destroy your play and make the team mates feel sick about those stubborn selfishness. you can not play many of these type of guys. for udine it worked out, for lazio it didn't, so it was nowhere a sure shot.
dortmunds defense was crap before and with the lack of money they had to bet on that card, but who would you realistically buy now, how is cheap and who would improve on the bonucci/chiellini partnership ? of corse we could try and bring in many full backs just for one to work out, but guess what ... thats what we did ... we tried caceres, motta, traore, ariaudo all of whom did not cost much (or were loaned) and who all flopped... we can not simply keep playing them in the hope for them to improve, because they would significantly weaken us
now boniperti , fausto rossi, pasquato and co.
Again, I think I was misunderstood in what I meant by a "scouted" young player - a prime example of what I mean is Ganso - a player who will most likely come to Milan for the not so low a price of 25 mil ... this same player, participated in a youngster tournament in Italy 2 years or so ago when he was already 18-19 yo and he could have been bought for 300,000 
... no one did that - even Bologna missed out on him because they didn't want to spend this much money on an unproven player .
Lyon, Arsenal and even Porto, even though to a lesser extent, are hardly examples of teams with good scouting systems as they do have to make considerable investments - paying 15-20-25 mil for the Gourcuffs and Nasris, no matter how young these players are, is already beyond scouting - it's a full fledged investment.
I do agree that Porto do seem to often come up with good players who they later on sell for lots of cash but that doesn't mean they paid for each one of them 500,000 or so (like it was with Chysokho) ... and then again, we see the success stories only, for each success story, there are 10 others that will turn out to be failures.
Also, I am not sure I would count Porto as a great team ... this year they are pretty good but success outside the Portuguese league is not exactly perennial for them.
... no one did that - even Bologna missed out on him because they didn't want to spend this much money on an unproven player .Lyon, Arsenal and even Porto, even though to a lesser extent, are hardly examples of teams with good scouting systems as they do have to make considerable investments - paying 15-20-25 mil for the Gourcuffs and Nasris, no matter how young these players are, is already beyond scouting - it's a full fledged investment.
I do agree that Porto do seem to often come up with good players who they later on sell for lots of cash but that doesn't mean they paid for each one of them 500,000 or so (like it was with Chysokho) ... and then again, we see the success stories only, for each success story, there are 10 others that will turn out to be failures.
Also, I am not sure I would count Porto as a great team ... this year they are pretty good but success outside the Portuguese league is not exactly perennial for them.
first time the english have seen a player that can pass a ball straight and now he is maradona all of the sudden, like guardiola, said " we have 10 Wilshere's in our B team)
Depends, which players and what age.
Some players are born leaders and with quality, and they don't need much time to settle in. Let's not forget it's Manchester United who kept playing C.Ronaldo at the age of 18-19, Messi at Barcelona and Hamsik, Pastore at their current clubs. Those aren't weak teams but nonetheless, proven young players never take too much time to settle in and those players are well known. It's the style of thinking that keeps Italy backwards. Look at the management, coaches and even people from Italy, they an implemented mind-set of how their primary focus exactly is experience. Did you see the new bullshit recently? Some guy said how Pastore is too young for Serie A and it's exactly what happens literally and how clubs do think. Nobody will go after Kwadwo now, but every club will rush in to buy the mediocre Montolivo for the same amount of money, while Asamoah will go aboard and become three times better player. Nobody will go after Sakho, but for Bonucci and you know what's the reason? Well, Bonucci has the
Serie A experience
We skipped on Hamsik for 6mln euros but we signed the "proven" Almiron and Tiago, look what happened later. Almiron flopped badly while Tiago lurked every single penny from Juve's bank. Piqué was pretty normal but they kept on playing him and look what happened.
Everyone laughs at Sanchez. Maybe not now, but they did so many times. He was being called a trick pony, but it seems they keep their mouth shut now. He always had the potential and he's turning into amazing player. So what does proven means? That unproven Sanchez would make this Juve look different this year but most of the clubs prefer the "workhorse" such as Pepe who offers nothing literally, simply a good bench player. Unproven Hamsik was always better than Tiago, Almiron, Marchisio. Unproven Cavani was far more useful than Iaquinta.
Mourinho at Porto signed 13 players when they were third. Season after, half of those players were worth over 15mln euros and they ended up with a CL in their hands. All of those were inexperienced and unproven players. Now they are one of the best defenders Pepe, one of the best defenders at Chelsea - Carvalho, Deco who was amazing, Lisandro who banged in goals like there's no tomorrow, Bruno Alves and many more. Chelsea took a "risk" with Luiz and started playing him right away, he will become one of the best defenders.
Dortmund - Subotic, Hummels, Götze and Barrios have wiped the floor with experienced Bayern and they will win the title. Their transfers were written at a sum of 18.5mln while Bayern's was 118mln euros.
It's crystal clear that clubs in Italy are doing a weird job with the money they posses and it's clearly seen in Europe as they even lost the 4th CL spot.
Some players are born leaders and with quality, and they don't need much time to settle in. Let's not forget it's Manchester United who kept playing C.Ronaldo at the age of 18-19, Messi at Barcelona and Hamsik, Pastore at their current clubs. Those aren't weak teams but nonetheless, proven young players never take too much time to settle in and those players are well known. It's the style of thinking that keeps Italy backwards. Look at the management, coaches and even people from Italy, they an implemented mind-set of how their primary focus exactly is experience. Did you see the new bullshit recently? Some guy said how Pastore is too young for Serie A and it's exactly what happens literally and how clubs do think. Nobody will go after Kwadwo now, but every club will rush in to buy the mediocre Montolivo for the same amount of money, while Asamoah will go aboard and become three times better player. Nobody will go after Sakho, but for Bonucci and you know what's the reason? Well, Bonucci has the
Serie A experience We skipped on Hamsik for 6mln euros but we signed the "proven" Almiron and Tiago, look what happened later. Almiron flopped badly while Tiago lurked every single penny from Juve's bank. Piqué was pretty normal but they kept on playing him and look what happened.
Everyone laughs at Sanchez. Maybe not now, but they did so many times. He was being called a trick pony, but it seems they keep their mouth shut now. He always had the potential and he's turning into amazing player. So what does proven means? That unproven Sanchez would make this Juve look different this year but most of the clubs prefer the "workhorse" such as Pepe who offers nothing literally, simply a good bench player. Unproven Hamsik was always better than Tiago, Almiron, Marchisio. Unproven Cavani was far more useful than Iaquinta.
Mourinho at Porto signed 13 players when they were third. Season after, half of those players were worth over 15mln euros and they ended up with a CL in their hands. All of those were inexperienced and unproven players. Now they are one of the best defenders Pepe, one of the best defenders at Chelsea - Carvalho, Deco who was amazing, Lisandro who banged in goals like there's no tomorrow, Bruno Alves and many more. Chelsea took a "risk" with Luiz and started playing him right away, he will become one of the best defenders.
Dortmund - Subotic, Hummels, Götze and Barrios have wiped the floor with experienced Bayern and they will win the title. Their transfers were written at a sum of 18.5mln while Bayern's was 118mln euros.
It's crystal clear that clubs in Italy are doing a weird job with the money they posses and it's clearly seen in Europe as they even lost the 4th CL spot.
Instead of hungry young talents this club wastes millions a year on buying players who seem to be expectant that because of their experience in this league or nationality that they will play for a big Italian club, and furthermore they act like they've got nothing to prove on the pitch. It has spread like a cancer into our team, and even those who are outside of this sphere, for example Krasic, are duly infected with it.
Personally, I think in Juve's case it's a question of lack of general ability at the helm - this includes the Elkans and the Marrotta's all in one. Juve spent this season more money than Milan did ... problem is, virtually none of it was spent wisely and on the appropriate players ... not to mention the failed choice for a coach, who has the vision to lead the team to where it's used to be - among the best in Europe. This is a direct result of the lack of vision in the management.
When you invest in talented players, it is normal to have successes and failures, Juve's investments this season, however, have turned out to be no better than slightly above utter failure and the reason for the "slightly above" is Bonucci, who while a good young player, is nowhere near the quality Juve's defense has become used to over the years. Yet he cost Juve about 50% more than Thiago Silva did Milan 2 years ago.
My point is, these failed investments are peculiar to Juve's situation due to bad management and not necessarily to the Italian League in general or the whole approach of investing big money in "selected" talented players, which is what big teams all over europe have been doing and will continue doing. In a word, there is a difference between investing money and wasting money.
What I am trying to say is that Juve's problem is not that they haven't taken up Udinese's approach but that they lack the guidance of a proper managerial team - right now Juventus is being ruled by people who don't seem to have any idea what they are doing.
When you invest in talented players, it is normal to have successes and failures, Juve's investments this season, however, have turned out to be no better than slightly above utter failure and the reason for the "slightly above" is Bonucci, who while a good young player, is nowhere near the quality Juve's defense has become used to over the years. Yet he cost Juve about 50% more than Thiago Silva did Milan 2 years ago.
My point is, these failed investments are peculiar to Juve's situation due to bad management and not necessarily to the Italian League in general or the whole approach of investing big money in "selected" talented players, which is what big teams all over europe have been doing and will continue doing. In a word, there is a difference between investing money and wasting money.
What I am trying to say is that Juve's problem is not that they haven't taken up Udinese's approach but that they lack the guidance of a proper managerial team - right now Juventus is being ruled by people who don't seem to have any idea what they are doing.
Depends, which players and what age.
Some players are born leaders and with quality, and they don't need much time to settle in. Let's not forget it's Manchester United who kept playing C.Ronaldo at the age of 18-19, Messi at Barcelona and Hamsik, Pastore at their current clubs. Those aren't weak teams but nonetheless, proven young players never take too much time to settle in and those players are well known. It's the style of thinking that keeps Italy backwards. Look at the management, coaches and even people from Italy, they an implemented mind-set of how their primary focus exactly is experience. Did you see the new bullshit recently? Some guy said how Pastore is too young for Serie A and it's exactly what happens literally and how clubs do think. Nobody will go after Kwadwo now, but every club will rush in to buy the mediocre Montolivo for the same amount of money, while Asamoah will go aboard and become three times better player. Nobody will go after Sakho, but for Bonucci and you know what's the reason? Well, Bonucci has the Serie A experience
We skipped on Hamsik for 6mln euros but we signed the "proven" Almiron and Tiago, look what happened later. Almiron flopped badly while Tiago lurked every single penny from Juve's bank. Piqué was pretty normal but they kept on playing him and look what happened.
Everyone laughs at Sanchez. Maybe not now, but they did so many times. He was being called a trick pony, but it seems they keep their mouth shut now. He always had the potential and he's turning into amazing player. So what does proven means? That unproven Sanchez would make this Juve look different this year but most of the clubs prefer the "workhorse" such as Pepe who offers nothing literally, simply a good bench player. Unproven Hamsik was always better than Tiago, Almiron, Marchisio. Unproven Cavani was far more useful than Iaquinta.
Mourinho at Porto signed 13 players when they were third. Season after, half of those players were worth over 15mln euros and they ended up with a CL in their hands. All of those were inexperienced and unproven players. Now they are one of the best defenders Pepe, one of the best defenders at Chelsea - Carvalho, Deco who was amazing, Lisandro who banged in goals like there's no tomorrow, Bruno Alves and many more. Chelsea took a "risk" with Luiz and started playing him right away, he will become one of the best defenders.
Dortmund - Subotic, Hummels, Götze and Barrios have wiped the floor with experienced Bayern and they will win the title. Their transfers were written at a sum of 18.5mln while Bayern's was 118mln euros.
It's crystal clear that clubs in Italy are doing a weird job with the money they posses and it's clearly seen in Europe as they even lost the 4th CL spot.
Some players are born leaders and with quality, and they don't need much time to settle in. Let's not forget it's Manchester United who kept playing C.Ronaldo at the age of 18-19, Messi at Barcelona and Hamsik, Pastore at their current clubs. Those aren't weak teams but nonetheless, proven young players never take too much time to settle in and those players are well known. It's the style of thinking that keeps Italy backwards. Look at the management, coaches and even people from Italy, they an implemented mind-set of how their primary focus exactly is experience. Did you see the new bullshit recently? Some guy said how Pastore is too young for Serie A and it's exactly what happens literally and how clubs do think. Nobody will go after Kwadwo now, but every club will rush in to buy the mediocre Montolivo for the same amount of money, while Asamoah will go aboard and become three times better player. Nobody will go after Sakho, but for Bonucci and you know what's the reason? Well, Bonucci has the
Serie A experience We skipped on Hamsik for 6mln euros but we signed the "proven" Almiron and Tiago, look what happened later. Almiron flopped badly while Tiago lurked every single penny from Juve's bank. Piqué was pretty normal but they kept on playing him and look what happened.
Everyone laughs at Sanchez. Maybe not now, but they did so many times. He was being called a trick pony, but it seems they keep their mouth shut now. He always had the potential and he's turning into amazing player. So what does proven means? That unproven Sanchez would make this Juve look different this year but most of the clubs prefer the "workhorse" such as Pepe who offers nothing literally, simply a good bench player. Unproven Hamsik was always better than Tiago, Almiron, Marchisio. Unproven Cavani was far more useful than Iaquinta.
Mourinho at Porto signed 13 players when they were third. Season after, half of those players were worth over 15mln euros and they ended up with a CL in their hands. All of those were inexperienced and unproven players. Now they are one of the best defenders Pepe, one of the best defenders at Chelsea - Carvalho, Deco who was amazing, Lisandro who banged in goals like there's no tomorrow, Bruno Alves and many more. Chelsea took a "risk" with Luiz and started playing him right away, he will become one of the best defenders.
Dortmund - Subotic, Hummels, Götze and Barrios have wiped the floor with experienced Bayern and they will win the title. Their transfers were written at a sum of 18.5mln while Bayern's was 118mln euros.
It's crystal clear that clubs in Italy are doing a weird job with the money they posses and it's clearly seen in Europe as they even lost the 4th CL spot.
Ronaldo and Messi would play at any team, they should be separated from the likes of Hamsik and Cavani. You are talking about super talents. I also think it's pretty easy to namecheck skillful players who have made it and suggest that we should base our mercato on this. Up to a point we should, but for every Sanchez who has developed from a trick pony (he was) to a productive player there are tenfold players who haven't. But the time will come when we will see this well enough. There is no such argument as skillful players v those less skilled, good teams win with both. The right transfers are those that suit the team and add to it.
Chelsea paid £25m for David Luiz, I don't see why it is admirable that they play him, he's another massive talent who is clearly going to be a top player. It's not a risk for a club like Chelsea. If you have Chelsea's money and you pay that much you play a player, it's not relevant to us. If they go and pay £30m for Neymar I won't be saying well done to them for playing him. I'd expect him to play.
Porto and Dortmund were in the same situation that we are in now, not in 2007 when we had choices to make to improve. So if we start from zero this summer, or last, then we try to build a team over the next few years. I also think Porto are not a direct example for us. Their philosophy is fine but they play in a league with basically 4 decent teams, and two of those are mediocre currently. It's much easier to bring through young players when you can play teams who are the equivalent of Serie B sides several times a season. Then they can also sign several non-EU players. Lyon are, along with Dortmund, maybe a better example.
Serie A losing the 4th spot is partly to do with this lack of forward thinking, but not the only reason.
I'd completely agree with you here. Save for the one small bit that Juve is one of the worst offenders of a league that is doing a bit too much of the same overall. There are exceptions you find -- mostly out of necessity at clubs without the resources a Juve has.
But no question, Juve has been managed for the past several years by people who don't know what they are doing.
But no question, Juve has been managed for the past several years by people who don't know what they are doing.
Wilshere is pretty good. But the English are starved for something that isn't an import. They're kind of like the white Anglo-Saxon father who has grown so weary of his daughter's multiple dates with blacks, Muslims, and swarthy Mediterraneans that he practically creams in his shorts when he catches her finally dating a white boy.
Still, Guardiola's comments are totally baseless and just prove why people hate Barca. Whenever I see Wilshere he's always running his socks off, defending, chasing down the ball, etc. On top of that, he's got good ball control. The English over-hyping him doesn't make him any worse in my eyes. And they do over-hype him.
Since from my perspective this season was horrible regarding Juve's and Milan's achievement, I now try to find joy in the little things. What I want now is Lazio to beat Inter at Meazza and Udinese to win too in the next round, so 4 rounds before the end we'll have this situation:
3. Inter 63
4. Lazio 63
5. Udinese 62
You understand where I'm going with this, right?
3. Inter 63
4. Lazio 63
5. Udinese 62
You understand where I'm going with this, right?
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