Israeli-Palestinian conflict (25 Viewers)

[Osman]

Visegrad is litterally the biggiest disinformation page of entire twitter (its proven propoganda page of polish/russian run operatives). 99% streak of outright lies in each "report". Debunked almost daily by most other sources.


Like in this instance, the man in the video is saying they were bombed by airstrike. And there's no footage of them being shot at in that clip despite the captions claims.

 

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[AlexDP705]

Reached the point where zionists are whitewashing the nazis to justify Israel's crimes



Césaire was 100% right when he described nazism as western colonialism internalized.

 

[U Picciriddu]

Visegrad is litterally the biggiest disinformation page of entire twitter (its proven propoganda page of polish/russian run operatives). 99% streak of outright lies in each "report". Debunked almost daily by most other sources.


Like in this instance, the man in the video is saying they were bombed by airstrike. And there's no footage of them being shot at in that clip despite the captions claims.

Thanks man, did not know that.

 

[Fab Fragment]

What a gem of a person. The people of Florida are so lucky to have such a wonderful humanitarian.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/10/florida-republican-michelle-salzman-palestine

 

[BayernFan]

I forget if it was Kissinger or some other U.S. diplomat, but it was telling 20 years ago when the guy pulled out of Israel diplomacy because he felt it was on a morally ruinous road of becoming the very thing they were victimized by without any political capacity or will to do otherwise.

The "you become the thing you hate" problem.

Israel has a lot of enemies who are all neighbors. And believe it or not, I do believe they have a right to exist and to have reasonably safe borders. But it's almost like watching an alcoholic in a death spiral, doing all the things that are making those aims unattainable if not also unjustifiable.

Problem is when 9 out of 10 of their neighbours believe they have no right to exist and wish to wipe them out, either killing or just dissolve the Israeli state. What are you gonna as Israel then?

I’m not trying to justify the israeli war crimes or settlements, never will. But I sometimes feel we here in the West are wearing those fantasy world glasses when it comes to this conflict. We often think its just as easy as to both giving some land back etc.

For some reason I’m quite sure the Arabs would still want to wipe them out if they gave all the conquered land/settlements back. We saw it non stop since 1948 when Israel was declared a state. Why would it suddenly change?

Try to imagine your neighbours have tried to kill you multiple times and spoken quite frequently about it. I think most of us would not seek the diplomatic way if this has happened again and again.

And I do agree with you. But I think both sides have so much distrust in each other that its close to impossible to see peace in the foreseable future.

Another problem is most muslims see it as a personal insult and slap in the face that there is a jewish state. Not easy to get peace with that mindset.

 

[swag]

Problem is when 9 out of 10 of their neighbours believe they have no right to exist and wish to wipe them out, either killing or just dissolve the Israeli state. What are you gonna as Israel then?

I’m not trying to justify the israeli war crimes or settlements, never will. But I sometimes feel we here in the West are wearing those fantasy world glasses when it comes to this conflict. We often think its just as easy as to both giving some land back etc.

For some reason I’m quite sure the Arabs would still want to wipe them out if they gave all the conquered land/settlements back. We saw it non stop since 1948 when Israel was declared a state. Why would it suddenly change?

Try to imagine your neighbours have tried to kill you multiple times and spoken quite frequently about it. I think most of us would not seek the diplomatic way if this has happened again and again.

And I do agree with you. But I think both sides have so much distrust in each other that its close to impossible to see peace in the foreseable future.

Another problem is most muslims see it as a personal insult and slap in the face that there is a jewish state. Not easy to get peace with that mindset.

All true. But I also do think systemically of the outer conditions that bring people to a certain state as well.

Like that Nazi apologist video that @AlexDP705 shared above, people are trying to make moral equivalences without acknowledging the dynamics of the Germans being the colonizers and the Palestinians being the colonized. Both actions are reprehensible, and trying to pick winners of the Atrocity Olympics is as lame a proposition as trying to pick winners of the Oppression Olympics.

Now I know diplomacy is a luxury of those without existential blood on their family lines. But I'll turn more to the adage of insanity defined as doing the same things over again and expecting a different outcome. I feel pretty confident to say that internal and external policy wrt Israel has been an abject failure.

Europe was once characterized by borders of death and bloodshed. Yet today we mostly kick footballs around, hurl insults at players, and threaten to withhold EU funding. Not great. But an improvement? Immensely. Something shifted, and part of that are the conditions that allowed that shift. Including an acknowledgement of the horrors of the alternatives.

Arabs and Jews are equally culpable in this, and I would also point to the irony that they have more in common globally than they are different. Egypt has been an illustrative exception of what's possible, even if they are not coliving in the same nation state.

I'm still dumbfounded about US relations with the UK, for example. Even if it took a century or more. When the US staged its colonized revolution, the guerilla tactics and Tea Parties of the colonies was perceived as the terrorism of its time by the British. And yet today, despite over 25,000 American revolutionary soldiers giving their lives so that America could rid itself of the English royalty, conservative rags like Fox News cover the British royals like they want them back in power.

It's going to be more than just giving some land back. But without it, somehow you have to trust Israel to rule a pluralistic state without a form of apartheid. I really don't see that happening. With some land back, I do think there are better chances... at least to afford some life dignity and self-determination for Palestinians. And for Israel to better control and buttress formal defenses with walls and bombs and machine gun turrets and whatever else they need while allowing their own neo-Nazi settlers from flaring up new bloodshed at the easiest opportunity. At least until both have the opportunity to allow those walls to fade more with generations to come.

 

[BayernFan]

All true. But I also do think systemically of the outer conditions that bring people to a certain state as well.

Like that Nazi apologist video that @AlexDP705 shared above, people are trying to make moral equivalences without acknowledging the dynamics of the Germans being the colonizers and the Palestinians being the colonized. Both actions are reprehensible, and trying to pick winners of the Atrocity Olympics is as lame a proposition as trying to pick winners of the Oppression Olympics.

Now I know diplomacy is a luxury of those without existential blood on their family lines. But I'll turn more to the adage of insanity defined as doing the same things over again and expecting a different outcome. I feel pretty confident to say that internal and external policy wrt Israel has been an abject failure.

Europe was once characterized by borders of death and bloodshed. Yet today we mostly kick footballs around, hurl insults at players, and threaten to withhold EU funding. Not great. But an improvement? Immensely. Something shifted, and part of that are the conditions that allowed that shift. Including an acknowledgement of the horrors of the alternatives.

Arabs and Jews are equally culpable in this, and I would also point to the irony that they have more in common globally than they are different. Egypt has been an illustrative exception of what's possible, even if they are not coliving in the same nation state.

I'm still dumbfounded about US relations with the UK, for example. Even if it took a century or more. When the US staged its colonized revolution, the guerilla tactics and Tea Parties of the colonies was perceived as the terrorism of its time by the British. And yet today, despite over 25,000 American revolutionary soldiers giving their lives so that America could rid itself of the English royalty, conservative rags like Fox News cover the British royals like they want them back in power.

It's going to be more than just giving some land back. But without it, somehow you have to trust Israel to rule a pluralistic state without a form of apartheid. I really don't see that happening. With some land back, I do think there are better chances... at least to afford some life dignity and self-determination for Palestinians. And for Israel to better control and buttress formal defenses with walls and bombs and machine gun turrets and whatever else they need while allowing their own neo-Nazi settlers from flaring up new bloodshed at the easiest opportunity. At least until both have the opportunity to allow those walls to fade more with generations to come.

Fully agreed.

And the part you mentioned about Europe is interesting as there probably haven't been a continent with so much blood shed and turmoil through out history. There's a reason Europeans up until 1945 was at each others throat most of the time.

Personally I think Europe developed to it's current state because it became very secular. You can still find exceptions, but religion does not play that big of a role in Europe any longer.

The muslim world is still stuck in another age because of religion and that mindset that comes with it. And orthodox jews are not really any better, they're just as fanatic.

As long as religion is still playing such a big role I don't think we'll see any real progress. Islam really needs a reform, but it won't come as the Muslims see their religion as perfect because that is what the prophet said, any critic, scepticism or questions is equal to not being a real muslim. Islam as a religion can't handle anyone who questions it and that's where one of the biggest issues are to be found. No religion comes close in terms of the followers being so sensitive and entitled.

Thank god (no pun intented) Christianity had reforms and are not stuck in the old testament. Else we would face the same issues as Islam are facing in 2023. Islam is also a fairly new religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, maybe it just hasn't matured yet.

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[Fr3sh]

Problem is when 9 out of 10 of their neighbours believe they have no right to exist and wish to wipe them out, either killing or just dissolve the Israeli state. What are you gonna as Israel then?

I’m not trying to justify the israeli war crimes or settlements, never will. But I sometimes feel we here in the West are wearing those fantasy world glasses when it comes to this conflict. We often think its just as easy as to both giving some land back etc.

For some reason I’m quite sure the Arabs would still want to wipe them out if they gave all the conquered land/settlements back. We saw it non stop since 1948 when Israel was declared a state. Why would it suddenly change?

Try to imagine your neighbours have tried to kill you multiple times and spoken quite frequently about it. I think most of us would not seek the diplomatic way if this has happened again and again.

And I do agree with you. But I think both sides have so much distrust in each other that its close to impossible to see peace in the foreseable future.

Another problem is most muslims see it as a personal insult and slap in the face that there is a jewish state. Not easy to get peace with that mindset.

broski this conflict has very little to do with religion, it's about politics and land.

As for wiping out jews, show me an instance where jews lived under a muslim rule and were threatened to be killed in mass, there is only one part of the world that has ever killed jews in mass during the existence of muslims and it's europeans. from the spanish inquisition to nazi germany, as a matter of fact when they were fleeing the spaniards they fled to muslim lands.

anyway this here is the main reason I have no sympathy for israel, mind you this video is from 2017

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interesting video on the "father of terrorism"

 

[BayernFan]

broski this conflict has very little to do with religion, it's about politics and land.

As for wiping out jews, show me an instance where jews lived under a muslim rule and were threatened to be killed in mass, there is only one part of the world that has ever killed jews in mass during the existence of muslims and it's europeans. from the spanish inquisition to nazi germany, as a matter of fact when they were fleeing the spaniards they fled to muslim lands.

anyway this here is the main reason I have no sympathy for israel, mind you this video is from 2017

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interesting video on the "father of terrorism"

Bro, I’m sorry but religion is the cornerstone here, it’s the reason they keep fighting. Both believe they have the right to be there exactly because of that.

The jews were certainly targeted when Israel was created, hence you find nearly no jews left in the islamic world. They did face persecution.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

 

[swag]

Fully agreed.

And the part you mentioned about Europe is interesting as there probably haven't been a continent with so much blood shed and turmoil through out history. There's a reason Europeans up until 1945 was at each others throat most of the time.

Personally I think Europe developed to it's current state because it became very secular. You can still find exceptions, but religion does not play that big of a role in Europe any longer.

Religion plays a role, but I don't think it's the only one.

And speaking of Europe, look at what happened with the Balkans in the 90s. There was genocide. There were people who wanted to eradicate the other from existence who lived next door. And while there are still resentments over land, histories, etc., just a couple decades later you're not seeing ethnic cleansing, missiles fired all the time, etc. Land settlements seemed part of that. And there are still stark religious differences in the area.

broski this conflict has very little to do with religion, it's about politics and land.

As for wiping out jews, show me an instance where jews lived under a muslim rule and were threatened to be killed in mass, there is only one part of the world that has ever killed jews in mass during the existence of muslims and it's europeans. from the spanish inquisition to nazi germany, as a matter of fact when they were fleeing the spaniards they fled to muslim lands.

It's been a long, long time, but during the Caliphates there is a past track record of Muslims being tolerant of plural religious societies including Jews.

 

[JuveJay]

It's true that Europe has a long history of warfare, but it's not like there is something different in the water there, there are deep, historical reasons for that which spread far before the 20th or even 19th and 18th centuries. Many of it intertwined with that of the near and far east. And European history isn't limited to that continent, European history is also the at least shared history of the Americas, Australasia, and many of its peoples.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

israel project was never meant to be a safe haven for jews. If that was the case, they would have that in America or one of their prostitutes in Europe.

 

[Seven]

israel project was never meant to be a safe haven for jews. If that was the case, they would have that in America or one of their prostitutes in Europe.

Wouldn't it be easiest if we give the Jews Turkey?

No one of any significance lives there and it's a big country.

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Bro, I’m sorry but religion is the cornerstone here, it’s the reason they keep fighting. Both believe they have the right to be there exactly because of that.

The jews were certainly targeted when Israel was created, hence you find nearly no jews left in the islamic world. They did face persecution.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

Very few territorial conflicts revolve entirely around religion.

I mean, yes, Cortes for example wanted to spread christianity. That's true. But he had other motives too.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Wouldn't it be easiest if we give the Jews Turkey?

No need for that. There are already more than a million live here and currently are in control of most of the economy, politics, judiciary, media, sports, art, literature... Ottomans took Sefarad Jews in, when Spanish got rid of them after Reconquista. In return, they have infiltrated in army and brougt the empire to an end, thus the suffering of muslims began as after the caliphate has gone, control of the artifical states created in Ottoman lands have been delivered to non-muslim minorities.

 

[DAiDEViL]

@Strickland

 

[Seven]

No need for that. There are already more than a million live here and currently are in control of most of the economy, politics, judiciary, media, sports, art, literature... Ottomans took Sefarad Jews in, when Spanish got rid of them after Reconquista. In return, they have infiltrated in army and brougt the empire to an end, thus the suffering of muslims began as after the caliphate has gone, control of the artifical states created in Ottoman lands have been delivered to non-muslim minorities.

Do you think Turkey would be better off, if all non-muslims left the country?

 

[Mohad]

 

[X Æ A-12]

No need for that. There are already more than a million live here and currently are in control of most of the economy, politics, judiciary, media, sports, art, literature... Ottomans took Sefarad Jews in, when Spanish got rid of them after Reconquista. In return, they have infiltrated in army and brougt the empire to an end, thus the suffering of muslims began as after the caliphate has gone, control of the artifical states created in Ottoman lands have been delivered to non-muslim minorities.

And you just let the jews run your life instead of fighting back?

 

[DAiDEViL]

And you just let the jews run your life instead of fighting back?

Is Erdogan controlled by the jews is what I'm wondering.

 

[kappa96]

No need for that. There are already more than a million live here and currently are in control of most of the economy, politics, judiciary, media, sports, art, literature... Ottomans took Sefarad Jews in, when Spanish got rid of them after Reconquista. In return, they have infiltrated in army and brougt the empire to an end, thus the suffering of muslims began as after the caliphate has gone, control of the artifical states created in Ottoman lands have been delivered to non-muslim minorities.

Deportation and extermination camps coming soon to a Turkey near you?