Israeli-Palestinian conflict (18 Viewers)

[Tomice]

@Tomice correct me if I'm wrong, after us announces opening of new embassy hamas coaxed gazans into attempting to cross border into Israel and reclaim eat Jerusalem, pretty sure all parties knew the consequences of their actions and are just playing a high stake poker game with Palestinian lives

People just don't decide on a date and place to meet to storm borders, this is not an evite event, if you don't think hamas did this to milk the human tragedy you are really naive.

You're not wrong. Spot on actually.

People do this sort of stuff via social media all the time (organise protests, demonstrations etc.)

https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1239276/hamas-tells-israel-wait-until-may-15

They're one and the same people.
Also, it assumes that Palestinians don't really care about Jerusalem until Hamas (Palestinians) decided to play with their emotions.

They are not, I think you are just not familiar with the way leadership and rule in large parts of the arab world is fundamentally different from the west.

Also why aren't the palestinians in the west back or east jerusalem itself march anywhere? Or it's just the Gazans who care about Jerusalem?

It's a very small example and it's quite old (2012) but this Vice video is illuminating how Hamas rules, hanging people for smoking hash. It only gotten worse and it's also a bit of a fluff piece being Vice and all, there are much more sinister doc's on the subject.

How is that or their intentions relevant to what happened? People (except children) who came to the protests knew the consequences of their actions as much as Hamas did. So you either refuse to see it as a human tragedy because those people got what they were asking for, or you see it as what it is, a human tragedy, and there’s ONE party responsible for that: the murderer. You can’t have it both ways “we are sad about what happened but it was their own fault”.

Even if I agreed with you about Hamas’s ill intentions, there’s again one party that enables those intentions. There has to be a murderer for you to capitalize on their murder.

You are putting at odds two things which are really not,the world isn't binary.

People can "get what they were asking for" as you put it and it can still be a human tragedy, there is absolutely no contradiction here, it depends solely on what got them to that point and it isn't free will imo and that's why it's a tragedy for me personally. I don't blame the Gazans exclusively for what happened to them, they didn't ask for it but Hamas did, that's my point. I blame Israel, Hamas, the PA and the arab world for the gazans getting to this point at all where this crazy,pointless and cynical "protests" are getting them killed for an absolutely non feasible result.

And that's all nice and dandy but what is your suggestion exactly so Israel stop "enabling" Hamas sacrificing citizens? that Israel should just open border with gaza? should we just let them all in? Criticising is nice and well but this events aren't happening in a vacuum you know.

 

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[Tomice]

Also @king Ale Just wanted to add, since you still doubt Hamas ill intentions and we had a discussion about this point exactly not long ago. Just one source:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1fbbc5ab4ae4

Hamas indeed pays protesters to get shot, barely a surprise since the PLO have been doing that for 20 years already. Taking into account the extreme poverty in Gaza again I find it hard to blame the people who just try to get by, hence the tragedy. I do blame Hamas for cynically using that poverty that they had a big part in creating.

I mean just look at this guy, he is either trying really hard to get payed or the border fence has medicinal qualities

 

[Ronn]

Funny since I'm pretty sure i used human tragedy on this very page, and this whole conversation started with me blaming the main culprit here: the orange baboon.
Also it can be both a tragedy and like you said they knew full well the implicatios of their action. The whole Gaza situation is deplorable, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be as bad if not for social media.

 

[king Ale]

Funny since I'm pretty sure i used human tragedy on this very page, and this whole conversation started with me blaming the main culprit here: the orange baboon.
Also it can be both a tragedy and like you said they knew full well the implicatios of their action. The whole Gaza situation is deplorable, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be as bad if not for social media.

But that was the point, you can't call it a human tragedy if you think Hamas/people were responsible for it (don't separate Hamas from the people, people who came to the protests knew the consequences of their actions no less than did Hamas).

But think about it - what's there to milk? What has changed and what has been done about what Israel does? It's not even squarely condemned. Also, if we assume Hamas has achieved something out of tragedies like these, it automatically means that Israel has lost something as a result of them. Why haven't they bettered their game then? Why haven't they used another strategy? Why have they been falling prey to the same thing over and over again? Easy, because they are not losing anything, which naturally means Hamas is not achieving anything. This always makes the "Hamas is provocating Israel" or "Hamas is taking advantage of people's life" theory an absurd one to me. For how many years can you provocate someone into doing something they didn't intend to without forcing them to evolve to be smarter?

Israel has created this really disgusting "others' responsibility for our crimes" narrative, which I don't buy for a second. And it's a very old narrative btw, which is why I don't understand why you think the social media is at fault here. The social media as an impactful tool is way too young to have been taken advantage of by Hamas over the past decades.

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You are putting at odds two things which are really not,the world isn't binary.

People can "get what they were asking for" as you put it and it can still be a human tragedy, there is absolutely no contradiction here, it depends solely on what got them to that point and it isn't free will imo and that's why it's a tragedy for me personally.

I see them as adults who decide what to do when to do and how to do it. You see them as a herd of confused individuals whose life choices are dictated by others. I call it BS.

I don't blame the Gazans exclusively for what happened to them, they didn't ask for it but Hamas did, that's my point. I blame Israel, Hamas, the PA and the arab world for the gazans getting to this point at all where this crazy,pointless and cynical "protests" are getting them killed for an absolutely non feasible result.

If you blame Hamas for asking Gazans to protest, you should blame Gazans for responding to Hamas's calls. I respect those who think Gazans are to blame for what happened there. At least they are honest about their moral bankruptcy. But to pretend being uopset about Gazans' lives AND blame Hamas is hypocritical. I have no respect for that.

And that's all nice and dandy but what is your suggestion exactly so Israel stop "enabling" Hamas sacrificing citizens? that Israel should just open border with gaza? should we just let them all in? Criticising is nice and well but this events aren't happening in a vacuum you know.

Not killing people maybe?

 

[Tomice]

But that was the point, you can't call it a human tragedy if you think Hamas/people were responsible for it (don't separate Hamas from the people, people who came to the protests knew the consequences of their actions no less than did Hamas).

I won't respond to the whole post since I've given you my thought on that subject already few pages back and it's addressed to Deneb anyway. I will just that you can absolutely separate Hamas from the people and one must do so in order to understand the current issue.

I see them as adults who decide what to do when to do and how to do it. You see them as a herd of confused individuals whose life choices are dictated by others. I call it BS.

I call it being aware, as much as you want to suggest I know the palestinians better than you ever will. I live with them, worked with them and I've spent three years in Gaza and saw first hand how they live and what troubles them.

I see them as adult, not once suggested otherwise. However one can't possibly ignore how those living conditions and poverty, being shut out from the world all while being oppressed under a fanatical regime affect the ability to make rational and independent choices. They are just humans and all humans will behave the same under those conditions, it has nothing to do with them being arab/muslim/palestinians whatever.

Have you ever seen what the Hamas "educational" tv programs for kids look like? Broken down, mostly poorly educated people, some even brainwashed who see no hope for the future do irrational things and are easier to control and exploit. Then let me rephrase just for the sake of it , they are doing it out of free will, but only in the frame of options that are made available to them by Hamas. Better now?

If you blame Hamas for asking Gazans to protest, you should blame Gazans for responding to Hamas's calls. I respect those who think Gazans are to blame for what happened there. At least they are honest about their moral bankruptcy. But to pretend being uopset about Gazans' lives AND blame Hamas is hypocritical. I have no respect for that.

How can I blame someone who makes less than 4$ a day if he is even employed (around 50% are) and is willing to risk his life for his family welfare? on the contrary, I can only admire it. I can absolutely blame the one who pays them while keeping them in poverty.

I refuse to judge them because I haven't been in their shoes and so have you. I do hope that they will find the strength one day to oppose the Hamas regime and I blame Israel for not doing enough to help them achieving that. We made a huge mistake by withdrawing unilaterally without giving the PA complete control.

And please they aren't "asking" them to protest like it's signing some petition. You are just blissfully unaware to what's going on in Gaza and how Hamas operates.

Also I fail to see what's hypocritical exactly and I don't pretend to be upset, I'm not at all upset. I'm saddened. I went to visit my parents two days ago and I saw my mom crying in front of the T.V to a piece about the living conditions in Gaza. vast majority of Israelis don't take pleasure from seeing those images and aren't happy about any of it, I won't pretend to be anything I'm not for the sake of people on an internet forum I will probably never meet, and that you can take to the bank. If it's not an honest conversation what are we doing?.

Not killing people maybe?

You completly ducked the quastion I see

 

[GordoDeCentral]

But that was the point, you can't call it a human tragedy if you think Hamas/people were responsible for it (don't separate Hamas from the people, people who came to the protests knew the consequences of their actions no less than did Hamas).

But think about it - what's there to milk? What has changed and what has been done about what Israel does? It's not even squarely condemned. Also, if we assume Hamas has achieved something out of tragedies like these, it automatically means that Israel has lost something as a result of them. Why haven't they bettered their game then? Why haven't they used another strategy? Why have they been falling prey to the same thing over and over again? Easy, because they are not losing anything, which naturally means Hamas is not achieving anything. This always makes the "Hamas is provocating Israel" or "Hamas is taking advantage of people's life" theory an absurd one to me. For how many years can you provocate someone into doing something they didn't intend to without forcing them to evolve to be smarter?

Israel has created this really disgusting "others' responsibility for our crimes" narrative, which I don't buy for a second. And it's a very old narrative btw, which is why I don't understand why you think the social media is at fault here. The social media as an impactful tool is way too young to have been taken advantage of by Hamas over the past decades.

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I see them as adults who decide what to do when to do and how to do it. You see them as a herd of confused individuals whose life choices are dictated by others. I call it BS.



If you blame Hamas for asking Gazans to protest, you should blame Gazans for responding to Hamas's calls. I respect those who think Gazans are to blame for what happened there. At least they are honest about their moral bankruptcy. But to pretend being uopset about Gazans' lives AND blame Hamas is hypocritical. I have no respect for that.



Not killing people maybe?

Easy, score political points locally and ammo for the media war on Israel. The fact is the Palestinians lost the war long ago and nobody is helping them, this situation reminds me of the fate of the civilians at the battle of alesia

 

[Linebreak]

Israel has a military that could take on the entire Middle East and win, who regularly massacre lightly armed and un-armed Palestinians, yet you will still have those who regularly make excuses for their racist systematic violence like @Tomice and @GordoDeCentral.

The bottom line is a people who violently kicked out by a bunch of Europeans, who claimed their ancestors lived their millenniums ago so the land is rightfully theirs, are being blamed for defending themselves and wanting their land and property back.

If someone violently kicks you out of your house, you fight back. That's as simple as the Israeli-Palestinian issue is. Everything else is smokes and mirrors to make the situation seem complicated.

 

[Tomice]

Israel has a military that could take on the entire Middle East and win, who regularly massacre lightly armed and un-armed Palestinians, yet you will still have those who regularly make excuses for their racist systematic violence like @Tomice and @GordoDeCentral.

The bottom line is a people who violently kicked out by a bunch of Europeans, who claimed their ancestors lived their millenniums ago so the land is rightfully theirs, are being blamed for defending themselves and wanting their land and property back.

If someone violently kicks you out of your house, you fight back. That's as simple as the Israeli-Palestinian issue is. Everything else is smokes and mirrors to make the situation seem complicated.

Look, another regressive western SJW

You got one thing right in your post, the issue is simple, we won a war (too many actually) and they lost. No amount of crying will change that, good luck trying to reverse time.

Instead of facing reality, which your type seemingly have an issue with, why not just accept the facts and move on? If you had even an ounce of true compassion you wouldn't have encouraged the palestinians to keep fighting a war already lost .

But it's not generation upon generation of your people who are going to waste, small price to pay so you can feel good about your "values".

 

[Fred]

Look, another regressive western SJW

You got one thing right in your post, the issue is simple, we won a war (too many actually) and they lost. No amount of crying will change that, good luck trying to reverse time.

Instead of facing reality, which your type seemingly have an issue with, why not just accept the facts and move on? If you had even an ounce of true compassion you wouldn't have encouraged the palestinians to keep fighting a war already lost .

But it's not generation upon generation of your people who are going to waste, small price to pay so you can feel good about your "values".

I always used to see you criticizing the "right" in Israel, but it seems from your posts, that right or left most Israeli's are war mongering occupiers who have no compassion for deaths of unarmed civilians.

 

[Tomice]

I always used to see you criticizing the "right" in Israel, but it seems from your posts, that right or left most Israeli's are war mongering occupiers who have no compassion for deaths of unarmed civilians.

Since when the line between left and right is accepting reality? Maybe since the "western" version of the left have been hijacked but that's an all other topic.

And come on man, you can throw all the big words you want but they have nothing to do with any of my posts or views, I have absolutely no idea how you made that leap. Let me ask you this then, what is your idea of compassion for the palestinians that we can show? realistically please, I sincerely want to know.

 

[Fred]

Since when the line between left and right is accepting reality? Maybe since the "western" version of the left have been hijacked but that's an all other topic.

And come on man, you can throw all the big words you want but they have nothing to do with any of my posts or views, I have absolutely no idea how you made that leap. Let me ask you this then, what is your idea of compassion for the palestinians that we can show? realistically please, I sincerely want to know.

We will never agree on the issue of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, so I think it would be futile to get into that discussion. However I can answer you on what my idea on compassion for Palestinians that you can show. How about feeling sorry for unarmed civilians that get killed by your military? How about not trying to justify the killing of unarmed civilians? Is that too much to ask.

When Israeli civilians are killed, the reaction of any compassionate human being regardless of politics would be to not justify that in any way, to not blame the victims but feel sorry for them. Do you not think Palestinians are human beings that deserve the same compassion?

 

[Tomice]

We will never agree on the issue of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, so I think it would be futile to get into that discussion. However I can answer you on what my idea on compassion for Palestinians that you can show. How about feeling sorry for unarmed civilians that get killed by your military? How about not trying to justify the killing of unarmed civilians? Is that too much to ask.

When Israeli civilians are killed, the reaction of any compassionate human being regardless of politics would be to not justify that in any way, to not blame the victims but feel sorry for them. Do you not think Palestinians are human beings that deserve the same compassion?

I appreciate your response, while we might never agree for obvious reasons on solutions to the conflict, I ask of you to re-read my posts before making unfair claims.

I specifically said, more then once, that I am feeling sorry and sad for those that died,if you choose to believe it or not is out of my hands, but why act like I didn't?
I never justified killing of unarmed civilians, on the contrary, I criticized Israel for excessive use of live ammunition in this very thread. We handled this very poorly and I've said it from the beginning.

I engaged in a discussion trying to explain the factors that led to this horrible and pointless events, and who shares responsibility in the limited frame of current events, not the conflict as a whole. To say I blamed the gazans citizens is even worse misrepresentation of my view because in this very page I said the complete opposite.

 

[Maddy]

Maybe since the "western" version of the left have been hijacked but that's an all other topic..

A shame. I'd liek to here more about this.

 

[Stevie]

Israel has a military that could take on the entire Middle East and win, who regularly massacre lightly armed and un-armed Palestinians, yet you will still have those who regularly make excuses for their racist systematic violence like @Tomice and @GordoDeCentral.

The bottom line is a people who violently kicked out by a bunch of Europeans, who claimed their ancestors lived their millenniums ago so the land is rightfully theirs, are being blamed for defending themselves and wanting their land and property back.

If someone violently kicks you out of your house, you fight back. That's as simple as the Israeli-Palestinian issue is. Everything else is smokes and mirrors to make the situation seem complicated.

100% correct. Same thing happend in Ireland with the British. Innocent people labelled as terrorists for defending their own country.

There is a difference between war and genocide/ ethnic cleansing by a more powerful country who are motivated by greed not by freedom, fear or justice.

 

[Tomice]

A shame. I'd liek to here more about this.

there you go:

100% correct. Same thing happend in Ireland with the British. Innocent people labelled as terrorists for defending their own country.

There is a difference between war and genocide/ ethnic cleansing by a more powerful country who are motivated by greed not by freedom, fear or justice.

Facts, history, relativity and being accurate are not important anymore. They have been replaced by "feelings" and "justice", black and white views and big empty words.

 

[Seven]

But that was the point, you can't call it a human tragedy if you think Hamas/people were responsible for it (don't separate Hamas from the people, people who came to the protests knew the consequences of their actions no less than did Hamas).

I don't understand what responsibility has to do with it not being a human tragedy. Regardless of responsibilities, this is definitely a human tragedy.

If you look at it from a distance, I think this is far more the responsibility of the international community than Israel btw. We have systematically allowed them to go further and further. There is no reason Israel should suddenly change its behaviour.

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Facts, history, relativity and being accurate are not important anymore. They have been replaced by "feelings" and "justice", black and white views and big empty words.

I don't think history would be particularly kind for Israel.

 

[Maddy]

there you go:



Facts, history, relativity and being accurate are not important anymore. They have been replaced by "feelings" and "justice", black and white views and big empty words.

That is neither new nor soemthing exclusively to do with 'the western left'; that has always been the conditions of politics and history.

But obviously it's an easy way to delegitimize opposing views

 

[Tomice]

I don't think history would be particularly kind for Israel.

Agree to some extent but that's beside the point. History isn't kind in general, Israel included. But history goes both ways and you can't disregard the parts you don't like.

That is neither new nor soemthing exclusively to do with 'the western left'; that has always been the conditions of politics and history.

But obviously it's an easy way to delegitimize opposing views

You are correct of course, just from my experience at least it used to be different. The left seemed to be more practical and fact driven, today it just became a mirror image of the far,zealous right. Tolerance for opposing views was a staple of the left, not so much anymore. You either agree or you are morally corrupt person, there is almost no grey anymore.

Actually Stevie post was delegitimizing opposing views much more then mine. This tactic of falsely using big words like genocide or racist forces you to capitulate or be perceived as a horrible human with no moral. That tactic is one of the major issue I do have with where the left is headed, and I use that term (left) very loosely.

 

[Seven]

Agree to some extent but that's beside the point. History isn't kind in general, Israel included. But history goes both ways and you can't disregard the parts you don't like.

Of course not. And there are, almost always, two sides to a story. But the level and the nature of the systemic violence of Israel towards Palestinians coupled with the utter callousness of Israeli ambassadors abroad (they're calling babies terrorists ffs, that's the level we've reached), makes it pretty obvious who the bad guy is in this story.

 

[lgorTudor]

FFS Israel, please next time when savages storm your border with molotovs throw some flowers their way but then again, then the Hamas wouldn't have any dead kids to shove into cameras to program western fools