Israeli-Palestinian conflict (89 Viewers)

[Orgut]

Do you see any problems at all with how the Israeli government conducts itself?

I dont want to get into this discussion more than I already did but lets say both sides arent conducting themselves in the best way
One side gets the world`s blame because they are the strong side while the other side obviously at fault too as telling people go and kill innocent civilians is definitely not a very right and moral thing to do (just an example)
Do I think both side are equally wrong?! I would be lying if I said I do.. Maybe I`m blind and biased maybe you are blind doesnt really matter the problem is innocent people from both sides are suffering from it!

Maybe some innocent people arent "innocent" but the majority definitely dont want to see regular people who just want to live their lives peacefully suffer and/or getting killed

My and other innocent people only hope is that someday things will be better but the way things are going I must say I`m really not optimistic

 

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[Nzoric]

I dont want to get into this discussion more than I already did but lets say both sides arent conducting themselves in the best way
One side gets the world`s blame because they are the strong side while the other side obviously at fault too as telling people go and kill innocent civilians is definitely not a very right and moral thing to do (just an example)
Do I think both side are equally wrong?! I would be lying if I said I do.. Maybe I`m blind and biased maybe you are blind doesnt really matter the problem is innocent people from both sides are suffering from it!

Maybe some innocent people arent "innocent" but the majority definitely dont want to see regular people who just want to live their lives peacefully suffer and/or getting killed

My and other innocent people only hope is that someday things will be better but the way things are going I must say I`m really not optimistic

I dont doubt your sincerity, but equalling the two sides is counterfactual. We cant start a discussion on this basis. This is the point I struggle to get across when debating with moderate Israelis.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Hamas is a shin bet creation to divide palis and constantly stall the pace process, Israel was not interested in peace with the Palestinians

 

[Zacheryah]

Hamas is a shin bet creation to divide palis and constantly stall the pace process, Israel was not interested in peace with the Palestinians

Yeah, and its both Israel and EU/US fault that they became more then just some marginal bunch with fuses. Not palestinian people.


Its remarcable how long they tried the diplomatic way.

 

[Orgut]

Hamas is a shin bet creation to divide palis and constantly stall the pace process, Israel was not interested in peace with the Palestinians

Dont know about who is the "mastermind" behind Hamas creation but the truth like in almost everything lies in the middle
Israel want peace with Palestinians but the things is the terms
While there are people like me who think we should get peace whatever the cost, there are people like our prime minister Netanyahu who I`m not entirely sure if he does but if he does it certainly without giving up lands.

Do I think giving up lands will solve things? No because Palestinians are being controlled by extremists like Hamas who will stop at nothing but complete demolition of Israel (not just Hamas but other organizations as well)

Honestly I think this thing will never end and even if there is no Israel in the pictured there would still be chaos in this just that the story wouldnt be covered up like this (see other countries which their leaders use chemical weapons on their civilians - it seems no one cares)

The way I see it a war is inevitable and sooner or later there will be a war with Palestinians +Lebanon+Suria+Iran and the other side will be Israel with the help of the USA - I wish I could be optimistic and say things will be better but I really cant

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Dont know about who is the "mastermind" behind Hamas creation but the truth like in almost everything lies in the middle
Israel want peace with Palestinians but the things is the terms
While there are people like me who think we should get peace whatever the cost, there are people like our prime minister Netanyahu who I`m not entirely sure if he does but if he does it certainly without giving up lands.

Do I think giving up lands will solve things? No because Palestinians are being controlled by extremists like Hamas who will stop at nothing but complete demolition of Israel (not just Hamas but other organizations as well)

Honestly I think this thing will never end and even if there is no Israel in the pictured there would still be chaos in this just that the story wouldnt be covered up like this (see other countries which their leaders use chemical weapons on their civilians - it seems no one cares)

The way I see it a war is inevitable and sooner or later there will be a war with Palestinians +Lebanon+Suria+Iran and the other side will be Israel with the help of the USA - I wish I could be optimistic and say things will be better but I really cant

There's no peace without giving land back, agreement on Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem, tall order i know. The only real possibility for peace like i said before is a strong iran. But we both know Israel doesn't want peace and is happy having hamas launch a few harmless rockets every now and then to stun population growth and build more settlements until all occupied territories are de facto judafied.

 

[Orgut]

There's no peace without giving land back, agreement on Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem, tall order i know. The only real possibility for peace like i said before is a strong iran. But we both know Israel doesn't want peace and is happy having hamas launch a few harmless rockets every now and then to stun population growth and build more settlements until all occupied territories are de facto judafied.

No peace without giving land back - I dont know about it... Without giving lands there wont be peace but even if some lands being given its still very hard to see any peace in the horizon (talking about the refugee and Jerusalem as well)...
I dont think Israel is enjoying Hamas as much as you said

The thing is while I agree that both parties get things wrong (not getting into who does more as it wont get us anywhere...) you seem to put all the blame on one side which is definitely a wrong thing to do.

A strong Iran - it wont get peace... It will get war

The thing is lets say tomorrow Netanayahu says - I was wrong - here lets get back to the 67 borders and about Jerusalem you take the east side and we take the west side - What will happen is:
A. Israel get weakened strategic wise
B. It doesnt seem that the Palestinian problem is only about some lands but about all lands
C. Im not sure Palestine will accept it but even if they will it will only be a temp thing to do

The thing is returning lands is crucial but you do need a partner in order to make peace and a partner is missing (both sides wise)

Let me ask you this - please answer this as honestly as you can
What do you think will happen if Netanyahu will tomorrow wake up and declare - I was wrong here are your lands 67 borders wise - Jerusalem will be splitted or belong to everyone (whatever suit better) as for refugee - They can live wherever they want as long as they live peacefully with no harm intent

Do you see peace happening in this scenario (not peace for 1 or 2 years.. I mean peace that will last)?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

No peace without giving land back - I dont know about it... Without giving lands there wont be peace but even if some lands being given its still very hard to see any peace in the horizon (talking about the refugee and Jerusalem as well)...
I dont think Israel is enjoying Hamas as much as you said

The thing is while I agree that both parties get things wrong (not getting into who does more as it wont get us anywhere...) you seem to put all the blame on one side which is definitely a wrong thing to do.

A strong Iran - it wont get peace... It will get war

The thing is lets say tomorrow Netanayahu says - I was wrong - here lets get back to the 67 borders and about Jerusalem you take the east side and we take the west side - What will happen is:
A. Israel get weakened strategic wise
B. It doesnt seem that the Palestinian problem is only about some lands but about all lands
C. Im not sure Palestine will accept it but even if they will it will only be a temp thing to do

The thing is returning lands is crucial but you do need a partner in order to make peace and a partner is missing (both sides wise)

Let me ask you this - please answer this as honestly as you can
What do you think will happen if Netanyahu will tomorrow wake up and declare - I was wrong here are your lands 67 borders wise - Jerusalem will be splitted or belong to everyone (whatever suit better) as for refugee - They can live wherever they want as long as they live peacefully with no harm intent

Do you see peace happening in this scenario (not peace for 1 or 2 years.. I mean peace that will last)?

yes i think Palestinians are tired of war and want to live peacefully, if you remove the grievances you disarm the extremists. On the other hand, Israel feeds off the culture of the shoah, of being eternal victims and will maintain this status as a result imo

 

[Zacheryah]

I can see him saying that, and if they intercept one hamas rocket, they'll carpet bomb a random city and call it justice and neccecary

- - - Updated - - -

yes i think Palestinians are tired of war and want to live peacefully, if you remove the grievances you disarm the extremists. On the other hand, Israel feeds off the culture of the shoah, of being eternal victims and will maintain this status as a result imo

Peace is difficult

- Palestina knows time and again Israel gets away with anything without repercussions
- IF you manage to convince them, Hamas will still attempt a terrorist attack
- Israel will use that as an excuse to murder some more, as they dont care about peace at all


Palestina wants peace for decades now. They arent the problem

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

I dont want to get into this discussion more than I already did

But that IS the discussion. Yes, Hamas does horrible things, but WHY do they exist? What sort of things do all those people need to be experiencing in order to elect a terrorist organization to power for protection?

Take settlements, for example. Can you really not fully admit those are 100% wrong?

I understand you love your country, and that can sometimes make it difficult to see when it's doing harmful things, but it's very important to be able to recognize these things.

 

[Nzoric]

Im not sure if Israeli leaders are aware of the repercussions for the state of Israel if they continue appropriating land until we have a one state two people situation. Terrorist attacks will escalate drastically and Israel will have to deal with stateless inhabitants within their borders. They can either ethnically cleanse the Palestinians or hand out Israeli citizenships. The first option would definitely force world leaders to finally side against Israel while the latter clashes with the idea of a jewish nation for jewish people which has been conceptually defining in zionism since Herzl.

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[Orgut]

But that IS the discussion. Yes, Hamas does horrible things, but WHY do they exist? What sort of things do all those people need to be experiencing in order to elect a terrorist organization to power for protection?

Take settlements, for example. Can you really not fully admit those are 100% wrong?

I understand you love your country, and that can sometimes make it difficult to see when it's doing harmful things, but it's very important to be able to recognize these things.

This one is easy... Of course Israel shouldnt build there

 

[Nzoric]

This one is easy... Of course Israel shouldnt build there

Thank you. Can I infer from this position that you think existing settlements on what is Palestine according to the UNSCOP partition plan should be uprooted unilaterally?

 

[Orgut]

Im not sure if Israeli leaders are aware of the repercussions for the state of Israel if they continue appropriating land until we have a one state two people situation. Terrorist attacks will escalate drastically and Israel will have to deal with stateless inhabitants within their borders. They can either ethnically cleanse the Palestinians or hand out Israeli citizenships. The first option would definitely force world leaders to finally side against Israel while the latter clashes with the idea of a jewish nation for jewish people which has been conceptually defining in zionism since Herzl.

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The first one will never happen
The second one will probably never will too as there are few things that prevent it from happening
1. Palestinian do not want to be a part of Israel - They want the land to themselves
2. The Herzl shit you mentioned - Im not a great believer and dont care about Zionism and all that but the thing is many here does and will probably remain the state...

There is only one option for Israel to declare they want peace and its giving some of the lands to Palistinians (SOME NOT ALL) - When this happens I`m really not sure if it will be enough as extremists are ruling Palestine and as long as they rule there they will want nothing less than the whole land and a total demolition of Israel!

 

[Nzoric]

The first one will never happen
The second one will probably never will too as there are few things that prevent it from happening
1. Palestinian do not want to be a part of Israel - They want the land to themselves
2. The Herzl shit you mentioned - Im not a great believer and dont care about Zionism and all that but the thing is many here does and will probably remain the state...

There is only one option for Israel to declare they want peace and its giving some of the lands to Palistinians (SOME NOT ALL) - When this happens I`m really not sure if it will be enough as extremists are ruling Palestine and as long as they rule there they will want nothing less than the whole land and a total demolition of Israel!

If you believe that Israel is the rightful home of the Jewish people you are by definition a Zionist. I'm using the word without any negative connotations btw.

- Why is 1 unthinkable? The last ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was greatly succesfull and happened only 68 years ago.
- It doesn't matter what the Palestinians want. 1 state 2 people is the only possible scenario.

To your point on what Israel must do. It seems that we are in principal agreement on it, Israeli concessions for Palestinian peace. There's just one problem, that is exactly what the Oslo Accords were all about. We have one scenario where Israel were remotely willing to make unilateral concessions and guess what, it ended with Rabin being assassinated by the far right. It wasn't Palestinian extremists who messed it up (despite escalating terrorist attacks). So we can't really pin it on them, can we?

 

[Ocelot]

What seems for me to be the main crux of the problem is that a lot of Palestinians (minority, but very vocal minority) have already been sufficiently radicalized to exploit any more freedom they get to harm Israel, with the end game of completely destroy the state if not Jews in general. The radicalization is of course to a large part due to the actions of Israel, but that is simply the situation right now.

I still think that there's a very sensible argument to be made in favour of radical liberalization of Israel's policies, and in the long run it's imo the only option to achieve peace, but such actions will virtually inevitably lead to more and deadlier attacks by Hamas in the short run - and as such a policy like this will be extremely difficult for any Israeli politician to push through on a long term basis, especially seeing how the political map in the country looks even now.

 

[Orgut]

If you believe that Israel is the rightful home of the Jewish people you are by definition a Zionist. I'm using the word without any negative connotations btw.

- Why is 1 unthinkable? The last ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was greatly succesfull and happened only 68 years ago.
- It doesn't matter what the Palestinians want. 1 state 2 people is the only possible scenario.

To your point on what Israel must do. It seems that we are in principal agreement on it, Israeli concessions for Palestinian peace. There's just one problem, that is exactly what the Oslo Accords were all about. We have one scenario where Israel were remotely willing to make unilateral concessions and guess what, it ended with Rabin being assassinated by the far right. It wasn't Palestinian extremists who messed it up (despite escalating terrorist attacks). So we can't really pin it on them, can we?

I must admit one thing - while many claim Rabin would have taken Israel towards destruction I personally was a fan of Rabin and think he was a great prime minister

 

[Fr3sh]

There's no peace without giving land back, agreement on Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem, tall order i know. The only real possibility for peace like i said before is a strong iran. But we both know Israel doesn't want peace and is happy having hamas launch a few harmless rockets every now and then to stun population growth and build more settlements until all occupied territories are de facto judafied.

100%

 

[Post Ironic]

To paraphrase Trump, fuck state-sponsored Radical Zionist Terrorism and the Jewish Settlements.

 

[Zacheryah]

Im not sure if Israeli leaders are aware of the repercussions for the state of Israel if they continue appropriating land until we have a one state two people situation. Terrorist attacks will escalate drastically and Israel will have to deal with stateless inhabitants within their borders. They can either ethnically cleanse the Palestinians or hand out Israeli citizenships. The first option would definitely force world leaders to finally side against Israel while the latter clashes with the idea of a jewish nation for jewish people which has been conceptually defining in zionism since Herzl.

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Israel has carpet bombed city's as a retalliation against an hamas rocket that made 0 casualties
They get away with ANYTHING


I can totally see them do that option 1 to show the world that Israel takes no instructions from anyone

The first one will never happen
The second one will probably never will too as there are few things that prevent it from happening
1. Palestinian do not want to be a part of Israel - They want the land to themselves
2. The Herzl shit you mentioned - Im not a great believer and dont care about Zionism and all that but the thing is many here does and will probably remain the state...

There is only one option for Israel to declare they want peace and its giving some of the lands to Palistinians (SOME NOT ALL) - When this happens I`m really not sure if it will be enough as extremists are ruling Palestine and as long as they rule there they will want nothing less than the whole land and a total demolition of Israel!

Israel has been ethically cleansing palestina under the disguise of 'targetting hamas' for 2+ decades

And they dont remotely care about what Palestina wants.