Israeli-Palestinian conflict (62 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #9,221
    The Democracy Revolutions and the Israel-Palestine Conflict

    For the longest time, Israeli governments have explained their resistance to Palestinian statehood by pointing to the Palestinians’ and the Arab world’s democracy deficit.

    The dishonesty of that explanation has now been exposed to even the most credulous by the reaction of Israel’s government to the democratic revolutions sweeping the region. We are now told by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government that the overthrow of Tunisia’s and Egypt’s rulers and the challenges to other regional autocrats, whose regimes provided Israel with a certain stability by repressing forcefully popular Arab anger over Israel’s occupation policies, no longer allows Israel to accede to risky “concessions” that a peace accord entails.

    So that while until now it was the region’s democratic deficit that supposedly prevented Israel from ending its occupation, now it is the region’s surfeit of democracy that stands in its way.

    It is hard to believe there is today even a single head of state anywhere who still does not understand that Israel’s settlement project in the West Bank—secretly encouraged, financed and protected by successive Israeli governments and the IDF—never had a purpose other than to secure permanent Israeli control of Palestine from the Mediterranean to the Jordanian border. Even Chancellor Angela Merkel, who not so long ago pledged Germany’s unflagging support for Israel’s quest for security, recently told Netanyahu that no one can any longer believe anything he says about Israel’s interest in peace.

    It is therefore hard to understand those who believe that the democracy revolutions in the region are a reason to urge Israelis and Palestinians to resume direct talks. Direct talks have not been resisted by Netanyahu, for they have served as an ideal cover for the continued expansion of the settlements—falsely holding out the promise that the controversy over the settlements will be resolved as soon as agreement is reached and a border has been set. So why waste time arguing about a settlement freeze now?

    But the border is the one subject that Netanyahu refuses to discuss in these direct talks. If he were to disclose where he intends to draw that border, his intention to retain control over the entire West Bank and prevent the creation of a viable and sovereign Palestinian state would be exposed for all to see. Instead, Netanyahu speaks of a solution consistent with Israel’s security, which in his conception of that term cannot accommodate a Palestinian entity that is not fully under Israel’s control.

    Unfortunately, Netanyahu has been aided and abetted in his deceptions by the U.S., for the Obama administration refused to endorse terms of reference that identify the 1967 border as the starting point of negotiations. The inescapable implication of that refusal is that, for all practical purposes, the Obama administration accepts the Likud’s definition of the occupied territories as “disputed territories,” to which Israel has as much a claim as the Palestinians do. Imagine what the U.S. would say to the Palestinians if they were to refer to any part of Israel as “disputed territory” to which they too have a claim.

    It is not that President Obama is unaware of what Netanyahu is up to. But rather than calling a spade a spade, his administration thought it would work its way around Netanyahu’s deceptions by pressing for a settlement freeze. Instead, it was Netanyahu who worked his way around the freeze.

    The lesson to be learned from the serial failures of America’s peace initiatives is that they cannot be based on a lie. We cannot pretend to believe Netanyahu’s recently announced acquiescence to a two-state solution if we are not prepared to hold his feet to the fire when it comes to the issue of the 1967 border. Our recent veto of the UN resolution condemning the settlements was so shameful not only because it helped Israel continue its settlement project but because it abetted Netanyahu’s lie that he can be for peace even if he rejects Palestinians’ rights on their side of the 1967 border.

    There is no better time for a resort to truth-telling than now, when citizens in countries neighboring Israel are risking their lives in the hundreds and thousands to put an end to the lies of dictatorial “security” regimes that have denied them their rights and their very humanity.

    The truth the U.S. needs to tell Netanyahu and his government is not that they must return to meaningless peace talks, but that international law and previous agreements do not allow Israel to acquire territory beyond the 1967 border without Palestinian consent. They must be told that their insistence that Palestinians must wait a generation or two, if not longer, before they will be ready for statehood is indistinguishable from the insistence of Arab dictators that they must remain in power because their people cannot be trusted to rule themselves—and equally repugnant to America’s values.

    By Henry Siegman
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/henry-siegman/the-democracy-revolutions_b_839097.html?ir=Politics
     

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    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #9,222
    Yesterday night, Hamas fighters chased the suspects for killing Vittorio Arrigoni to a house where one of those idiots threw a bomb killing his gangmate and after that he shot himself dead.
     

    JBF

    اختك يا زمن
    Aug 5, 2006
    18,451
    Yesterday night, Hamas fighters chased the suspects for killing Vittorio Arrigoni to a house where one of those idiots threw a bomb killing his gangmate and after that he shot himself dead.
    So much for being the "righteous" muslim.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #9,225
    The Goldstone Chronicles

    LONDON — We have a new verb, “to Goldstone.” Its meaning: To make a finding, and then partially retract it for uncertain motive. Etymology: the strange actions of a respected South African Jewish jurist under intense pressure from Israel, the U.S. Congress and world Jewish groups.

    Richard Goldstone is an author of the “Goldstone Report,” an investigation of Israel’s military campaign in Gaza between December 2008 and January 2009. It found that Israel had engaged in a “deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population,” for which responsibility lay “in the first place with those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.” It said both Israel and Hamas may have committed crimes against humanity in a conflict that saw a ratio of about 100 Palestinian dead (including many children) for every one Israeli.

    Now Goldstone’s volte-face appears in the form of a Washington Post op-ed. It’s a bizarre effort. He says his report would have been different “if I had known then what I know now.” The core difference the judge identifies is that he’s now convinced Gaza “civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.”

    His shift is attributed to the findings of a follow-up report by a U.N. committee of independent experts chaired by Mary McGowan Davis, a former New York judge, and what is “recognized” therein about Israeli military investigations. Well, Goldstone and I have not been reading the same report.

    McGowan Davis is in fact deeply critical of those Israeli investigations — their tardiness, leniency, lack of transparency and flawed structure. Her report — stymied by lack of access to Israel, Gaza or the West Bank — contains no new information I can see that might buttress a change of heart.

    On the core issue of intentionality, it declares: “There is no indication that Israel has opened investigations into the actions of those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw Operation Cast Lead.”

    It says Israel has not adequately answered the Goldstone Report’s allegations about the “design and implementation of the Gaza operations” or its “objectives and targets.” Victims on both sides, McGowan Davis argues, can expect “no genuine accountability and no justice.”

    In short there is a mystery here. Goldstone has moved but the evidence has not, really. That raises the issue of whether the jurist buckled under pressure so unrelenting it almost got him barred from his grandson’s bar mitzvah in South Africa. Is this more a matter of judicial cojones than coherence?

    The fact that Hamas has not conducted any investigation into its unconscionable attacks on southern Israel — rockets and mortars still fall — is appalling if unsurprising. Goldstone makes much of this. But it does not change the nature of what Israel did in Gaza, nor allay the McGowan Davis concerns about Israel’s investigative failings.

    Goldstone, a Jew who takes his Jewishness seriously, has been pilloried by Israel. He fell afoul, as perhaps no other, of the siege mentality of a nation controlling the lives of millions of Palestinians but unsure what to do with them or with the world’s growing disavowal of this corrosive dominion that humiliates its victims and eats into the soul of its masters.

    The charges cascaded: He was a “self-hating Jew,” a hypocrite, a traitor. For Alan Dershowitz he was “despicable.” For Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, Goldstone was up there with the Iranian nuclear program and Hamas rockets as one of Israel’s “three major strategic challenges.”

    Theories already abound on the Goldstone psyche. It was an emotional meeting last year with the South African Jewish Board of Deputies that set him on the retraction road. No, it was a bruising debate last month at Stanford University. No, it was a rightist Israeli minister telling him his report fueled those who knifed West Bank settlers. He was “broken,” one friend suggests.

    I don’t know. I asked Goldstone. He responded in an e-mail that he was declining “media interviews.” I do know this: The contortions of his about-face are considerable.

    Goldstone expresses confidence that the Israeli officer responsible for the killing of 29 members of the al-Samouni family will be properly punished. Yet the McGowan Davis report is critical of this investigation and notes that “no decision had been made as to whether or not the officer would stand trial.”

    It also notes that more than a third of the 36 Gaza incidents identified in the Goldstone Report “are still unresolved or unclear.” There have been just two convictions — and the one for credit card theft brought a more severe sentence than use of a Palestinian child as a human shield! And this gives Goldstone confidence?

    Israel is celebrating what it calls a vindication. It is preparing to welcome Goldstone. It is demanding nullification of the report, even though Goldstone is only one of its four authors. Meanwhile the facts remain: the 1,400 plus Palestinian dead, the 13 Israelis killed, the devastation, the Hamas rockets — and the need for credible investigation of what all evidence suggests were large-scale, indiscriminate, unlawful Israeli attacks in Gaza, as well as Hamas’ crimes against civilians.

    To “Goldstone”: (Colloq.) To sow confusion, hide a secret, create havoc.

    By ROGER COHEN
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/opinion/08iht-edcohen08.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #9,228
    This morning, a group of extremist Zionist settlers wanted to enter Nablus city in the West Bank to pray without any coordination with their army. The Palestinian policemen warned them that they have to seek coordination before attempting to enter that city. They refused and threatened to use their weapons. A fight happened between the two parties, and one of those settlers was killed by the policemen.

    Now, Nablus is under siege again.
     

    JBF

    اختك يا زمن
    Aug 5, 2006
    18,451
    They will break in two days most and kill/arrest 20 rebels while putting homes to the ground in the process. They've been begging for this to happen since the new year.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    39,352
    You may not believe it, but I really missed your presence here.

    Welcome back, Seven :tup:
    Thanks, man. Oddly enough you're one of the few members I've missed as well. Must have to do with the fact we've had such big fights in the past. I'm sure we will soon resume our epic battle :D.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #9,231
    Thanks, man. Oddly enough you're one of the few members I've missed as well. Must have to do with the fact we've had such big fights in the past. I'm sure we will soon resume our epic battle :D.
    :D

    Should we find a reason to fight, or should we not spend too much time doing that?:eyepatch:
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,420
    Egypt FM: Gaza border crossing to be permanently opened
    Egyptian FM tells Al-Jazeera that preparations are already underway to permanently open Rafah border crossing, which would allow goods and people in and out of Gaza with no Israeli supervision.
    By Avi Issacharoff

    Egypt's foreign minister said in an interview with Al-Jazeera on Thursday that preparations were underway to open the Rafah border crossing with Gaza on a permanent basis.

    Egyptian Foreign Minister Nabil al-Arabi told Al-Jazeera that within seven to 10 days, steps will be taken in order to alleviate the "blockade and suffering of the Palestinian nation."

    The announcement indicates a significant change in the policy on Gaza, which before Egypt's uprising, was operated in conjunction with Israel. The opening of Rafah will allow the flow of people and goods in and out of Gaza without Israeli permission or supervision, which has not been the case up until now.

    Israel's blockade on Gaza has been a policy used in conjunction with Egyptian police to weaken Hamas, which has ruled over the strip since 2007. The policy also aims to reduce Hamas' popularity among Gazans by creating economic hardship in the Strip.

    Rafah's opening would be a violation of an agreement reached in 2005 between the United States, Israel, Egypt, and the European Union, which gives EU monitors access to the crossing. The monitors were to reassure Israel that weapons and militants wouldn't get into Gaza after its pullout from the territory in the fall of 2005.

    Before Egypt's uprising and ousting of longtime leader Hosni Mubarak, the border between Egypt and Gaza had been sealed. It has occasionally opened the passage for limited periods.

    source: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...er-crossing-to-be-permanently-opened-1.358690

    its about time to be honest, so hope this see's the light. the standing point of our previous foreign policy was nothing short from depressing to say the least.
     

    Vinman

    2013 Prediction Cup Champ
    Jul 16, 2002
    11,482
    After arresting thousands of suspects, it seems the Israelis found those who killed the settlers family in the West Bank one month ago. They are two Palestinian teenagers less than 18 years old according to Israeli sources. If that is really true, I do not know what the reason for such a stupid operation.

    Just to keep up for you, Vinny, with these news.
    thanks for the info, I read it too...

    according to what I read, they admitted to the killings, and said they would have killed the rest of the family (they missed the teenage daughter who found the rest of the family) if they would have known there was more
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #9,235
    There are some developments regarding the problems between Fateh and Hamas as they just signed an agreement in Cairo to end all the problems that continued for more than 4 years.

    Well, personally, I doubt this will be implemented on ground, and even if it is implemented, this will have a negative impact on our people.

    thanks for the info, I read it too...

    according to what I read, they admitted to the killings, and said they would have killed the rest of the family (they missed the teenage daughter who found the rest of the family) if they would have known there was more
    I did not read that.

    ßöмßäяðîëя;3010591 said:
    Misery loves company?
    Jealousy? :D
     
    Jul 1, 2010
    26,352
    Would you please elaborate how you link the next three togather?

    1- Nazi ideology.
    2- Mufti of Jerusalem.
    3- Hamas

    I would love to make use of your great knowledge about the subject.
    Let me put it this way. During the 1930s, Hassan Al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, was a close associate of the Mufti of Jerusalem. They both collaborated with Adolph Hitler and were his main allies in the region. One could argue that the first two chose to collaborate with Hitler because they feared the Jewish colonization of Palestine. On the other hand, by reading on Hassan Al-Banna, some parallels between his ideology and Nazism can clearly be done, which supports the view that himself and the Mufti of Jerusalem did not only forge an alliance with the Nazis for geopolitical common interests, but also for ideological common interests.

    As for Hamas, just read their charter. They quoted the Protocol of the Elders of Zion and used it in a very similar way to the Nazi's. Furthermore, take a deep look at the nature of their regime and you can see clear parallels. They don't want to negotiate a favorable treaty for all parties concerned, the only thing Hamas wants is the complete destruction of Israel and the annihilation of Jews.
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    As if thats not what the Israelis want with Palestine. Look at their actions instead of their words, while they are so much better than Hamas in putting a spin on things. You should really look at which party is the one that has been systematically evicting the other out of their homes and into refugee camps or exile.
     
    Jul 1, 2010
    26,352
    As if thats not what the Israelis want with Palestine. Look at their actions instead of their words, while they are so much better than Hamas in putting a spin on things. You should really look at which party is the one that has been systematically evicting the other out of their homes and into refugee camps or exile.
    I am not really taking sides here, I am merely explaining my view that Hamas is directly inspired by the despicable Protocol of the Elders of Zion and Nazism.

    I condemn Israel as much as the Palestinians here. However, it is preposterous to suggest that their goal is the annihilation of the Palestinians. If that was their goal, they would have succeeded a long time ago.
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    Why is it more plausible that Hamas wants the annihilation of Jews. I know you're not taking sides here, my point was that the difference between Israel and Hamas is that the former are astute politicians and experts in PR. Unlike Hamas, they don't make their goals explicit to the whole world, instead they always try to put a spin on things. But like i said, look at the numbers, look at how many Palestinians were killed by Israel and look how many Palestinians were forced into refugee camps or forced into exile ever since 1948, the picture would become a lot clearer then.
     
    Jul 1, 2010
    26,352
    Why is it more plausible that Hamas wants the annihilation of Jews.
    Because they state it in their charter. I do think that the vast majority of Israelis want peace and that the government also wants that. However, messianic zealots complicate the situation a whole lot more.

    On refugee camps, exiles, etc., that was very harsh and condemnable. Nevertheless, that's war for you. Like I said, if the Israeli government wanted to annihilate the Palestinians, they would have managed it years ago with the resources they have at their disposition.

    About the Israeli government wanting the annihilation of Palestinians but playing the wise card, I don't buy that.
     

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