Israeli-Palestinian conflict (143 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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Yeah history lol. It's only funny if it doesn't fit your narrative.
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It's pretty obvious who killed those people I think but if you are expecting an american official to condemn Israel for what happened this week you are barking at the wrong tree. a UN twitter handle is what you are looking for for.
Regardless, Israeli government has handled that protest really badly. Some of those casualties are very unfortunate and could have been easily avoided.
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It's pretty obvious who killed those people I think but if you are expecting an american official to condemn Israel for what happened this week you are barking at the wrong tree. a UN twitter handle is what you are looking for for.
Regardless, Israeli government has handled that protest really badly. Some of those casualties are very unfortunate and could have been easily avoided.
Well next election is coming up in end of 2019, so by then I hope, not a moment too soon if you ask me.
Regarding whether it will be a more right wing PM or not there are few possible scenarios even though the question itself is a bit more complex then that since the "fall" of the left in Israel is a much brodar process.
Bibi is currently being investigated on three different cases of corruption, there is a small possibility that he will indicted before the election and won't run again. In that case it's anyone guess who will replace him as the right wing candidate but out of three possible candidates I would say two are about the same and one is a bit less right wing. With that said the identity of the PM himself is a bit less important than the coalition of parties he can assemble. Since Bibi has no real regard to ideology as much has he has for staying in power he sold the government to the most right wing parties in order to form a coalition, the same happened the election before last when he lost to the left but they couldn't form a coalition so he became a PM.
If Bibi runs again I tend to believe the center-left will win the next election as support for bibi is at its lowest ever following the corruption charges and his divisive brand of politics (Trump definitely took a page or two from Bibi's book on that). If Bibi doesn't run there is no way of knowing before we know who takes his place.
On a personal level Bibi is a person I couldn't respect less, he has no principles and would sell his mother for another year in power. The mere sight of him on TV makes me sick to my stomach. As in most countries the messes are pron the divisive/partisan politics and fear mongering tactics that Bibi became a master of, I really do hope people here had enough of that.
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What's my narrative? I'm not the one who needs a narrative to deal every day with the moral dilemmas of living on stolen land while casually oppressing millions of people 
Nothing I have ever said here in this thread contradicted either of those, ever, and you can go back and look. We can debate the extant or cause for them if you are truly interested in that. What stolen land by the way? all of Israel or are we talking west bank? just curious
If anything that I wrote in there isn't an historical fact then feel free to suggest so. I resent the assumption you are making regarding me as inferred in your reply.
Thanks for the respect, the only fact i see is Israelis are alien to that land and displaced another people to be there. Now, cynical me sees nothing wrong with that since that's how things have always worked, what i have issue with is the moral highground claim, you never had it and you never will, with all the democracy and kibbutzes that land can handle you just won't.
As for the assumption, it's a natural one seeing as you are concerned with justice. I just can't see how any objective person can morally justify Israels existence.
As for the assumption, it's a natural one seeing as you are concerned with justice. I just can't see how any objective person can morally justify Israels existence.
I edited my post a bit to clarify, after your reply so there's that.
More importantly then everything else you are actually touching on a much bigger issue here I think. There is a huge cognitive-dissonance between what we perceive as "universal justice" (such a fluid notion in itself) and how the world actually works. I'm a "cynical" person myself, which is funny cause the definition itself today is a perfect example of that cognitive-dissonance as I would argue it's actually a "realist" and has nothing to do with being cynical.
As one I will never claim a moral high ground, this is exactly the assumption you are making regarding me I resent. The world is shaped by the "winners" and for that to happen someone got to lose, if you want us to apologize because we "won" I'm sorry to disappoint. Nothing in this world comes without struggle and always on the expanse of someone else. If Israel was founded even 100 years ago instead of 70 not one person in the west would've a batted an eye, wait 100 years more and no one will care again.
People are tribal, however you want to define that word, and as such will always look to better their own fortune on the expense of others and secure their future, like it's been done by every country in the world for the last 5,000 years. The only difference today imo is that the "west" is suffering from some kind of post-traumatic stress disorder following two world wars and is overcompensating for centuries of colonization that gave rise to a false sense of "universal" justice (which also comes from the same sense of superiority, ironically).
And to you point, saying that Israelis are alien to the land is very subjective statement in itself ,one with which I couldn't agree, and very far from a fact. Not to mention it's wholly irrelevant.
If Israelis are alien to the land then the same can be said regarding the refugees and their right of return and palestinians claim to "stolen land" or whole of Israel pre 48, if time is the only criteria for becoming alien to a land then what is the cut off? two generations? 10? a hundred?
It's also very, very easy to justify Israel existence moraly (as if anyone needs or can justify any country existence at all), it all depends on your own moral which is almost always a part of your broader "tribal" moral that inherently involves survival.
One more thing I wanted to add which I think is important to understand in this context. There is absolutely zero daily moral dilemma as you put it regarding living on "stolen" land, for me personally and you will also be hard pressed to find anyone here with such even at the most far-left circles (discounting the settlement of course, which me being personally against is an understatement) . The reason for that is a very simple one, we were born here. Whether you like it or not, Israel is a country and an accomplished fact, just as americans or australians don't live with a daily dilemma regarding the native population anymore. There is just no going back so in turn no purpose whatsoever in having this dilemma.
There is however certainly a dilemma regarding the oppression of the palestinians
More importantly then everything else you are actually touching on a much bigger issue here I think. There is a huge cognitive-dissonance between what we perceive as "universal justice" (such a fluid notion in itself) and how the world actually works. I'm a "cynical" person myself, which is funny cause the definition itself today is a perfect example of that cognitive-dissonance as I would argue it's actually a "realist" and has nothing to do with being cynical.
As one I will never claim a moral high ground, this is exactly the assumption you are making regarding me I resent. The world is shaped by the "winners" and for that to happen someone got to lose, if you want us to apologize because we "won" I'm sorry to disappoint. Nothing in this world comes without struggle and always on the expanse of someone else. If Israel was founded even 100 years ago instead of 70 not one person in the west would've a batted an eye, wait 100 years more and no one will care again.
People are tribal, however you want to define that word, and as such will always look to better their own fortune on the expense of others and secure their future, like it's been done by every country in the world for the last 5,000 years. The only difference today imo is that the "west" is suffering from some kind of post-traumatic stress disorder following two world wars and is overcompensating for centuries of colonization that gave rise to a false sense of "universal" justice (which also comes from the same sense of superiority, ironically).
And to you point, saying that Israelis are alien to the land is very subjective statement in itself ,one with which I couldn't agree, and very far from a fact. Not to mention it's wholly irrelevant.
If Israelis are alien to the land then the same can be said regarding the refugees and their right of return and palestinians claim to "stolen land" or whole of Israel pre 48, if time is the only criteria for becoming alien to a land then what is the cut off? two generations? 10? a hundred?
It's also very, very easy to justify Israel existence moraly (as if anyone needs or can justify any country existence at all), it all depends on your own moral which is almost always a part of your broader "tribal" moral that inherently involves survival.
What's my narrative? I'm not the one who needs a narrative to deal every day with the moral dilemmas of living on stolen land while casually oppressing millions of people
There is however certainly a dilemma regarding the oppression of the palestinians
Thanks for clarifying and while we are mostly in agreement for obvious reasons, as you pointed your tribalism is making you a bit subjective on the historical claims, 95% of Israeli jews are alien to that land, and forgive me but i don't believe that a cognitive dissonance doesn't exist amongst israelis, you can rationalize all you want, the memories too fresh and documented and the denial as shown in your post above is the clearest sign, at least Americans and Australians came to terms with their ugly genesis and are working on making amends, you can call that posturing and i would agree but at least they are not in denial.
Lastly, i have nothing against israelis or israel for that matter, but i like to call things as i see them.
Lastly, i have nothing against israelis or israel for that matter, but i like to call things as i see them.
I don't take any of this personally, I enjoy seeing other perspectives and I wouldn't mind if you are for or against Israel, to each his own.
Please see my edited post that refer specifically to the alien claim. I will put it here as well for convince
More importently what historical claims? I made non. For me the establishment of Israel was born much more of necessity then a following of any historical right. I also never claimed that Israelis don't suffer cognitive-dissonance, I regard that as a universal penonome of the 21st century
I also fail to see any denial in my post, the opposite if anything, can you please elaborate?
Please see my edited post that refer specifically to the alien claim. I will put it here as well for convince
More importently what historical claims? I made non. For me the establishment of Israel was born much more of necessity then a following of any historical right. I also never claimed that Israelis don't suffer cognitive-dissonance, I regard that as a universal penonome of the 21st century
I also fail to see any denial in my post, the opposite if anything, can you please elaborate?
It's not only the US though. Imagine if the Turkish government had done that to the protesters and the backlash that would have followed To say that oh do you expect the US or Europe to say something or the UN to do something about Israel atrocities is absurd, because yes I do expect that and so should everybody else.
Also this below - the "don't protest or you are responsible for the consequences" appeal, giving the assailant a fixed undeniable right and justification to kill while shifting the blame to those being attacked is honestly what I thought I'd never hear out of Iran (or similar places).
[video=twitter;982033970807365632]https://twitter.com/AFP/status/982033970807365632[/video]
To say that oh do you expect the US or Europe to say something or the UN to do something about Israel atrocities is absurd, because yes I do expect that and so should everybody else.Also this below - the "don't protest or you are responsible for the consequences" appeal, giving the assailant a fixed undeniable right and justification to kill while shifting the blame to those being attacked is honestly what I thought I'd never hear out of Iran (or similar places).
[video=twitter;982033970807365632]https://twitter.com/AFP/status/982033970807365632[/video]
It's not only the US though. Imagine if the Turkish government had done that to the protesters and the backlash that would have followed To say that oh do you expect the US or Europe to say something or the UN to do something about Israel atrocities is absurd, because yes I do expect that and so should everybody else.
Also this below - the "don't protest or you are responsible for the consequences" appeal, giving the assailant a fixed undeniable right and justification to kill while shifting the blame to those being attacked is honestly what I thought I'd never hear out of Iran (or similar places).
[video=twitter;982033970807365632]https://twitter.com/AFP/status/982033970807365632[/video]
To say that oh do you expect the US or Europe to say something or the UN to do something about Israel atrocities is absurd, because yes I do expect that and so should everybody else.Also this below - the "don't protest or you are responsible for the consequences" appeal, giving the assailant a fixed undeniable right and justification to kill while shifting the blame to those being attacked is honestly what I thought I'd never hear out of Iran (or similar places).
[video=twitter;982033970807365632]https://twitter.com/AFP/status/982033970807365632[/video]
If you look at that tweet on face value there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, the problem is with your choice on interpretation. The tweet does not say they can't protest as much as they want but if you don't want to get shot you keep a reasonable distance from and don't try and breach a border of another (hostile) country, just common sense and should go without saying really. I don't see a problem with that and it should be clear to anyone peacefully protesting. Let's not forget that Israel has a right to defend its borders like any other sovereign country, there is no point in pretending that this was a purely peaceful protest being led by a terror organization (the Irony).
Not all deaths that occurred were just, there was definitely significant collateral damage that could and should have been avoided. I think we handled it poorly, the use of live ammunition was retarded in some cases. We played right into the hands of Hamas who's main currency is dead palestinians.
What a history lesson. How did you miss Moses and da promised land? Another day of peace in the middle east!For 'normal','regular' people, those jews sure as shit gather a lot of hate around themselves. 7000 years or so... They don't believe to be normal either - they are the chosen. The main culprit for antisemitism is semitism - isn't it obvious?
People taking tribalism so close to heart do not create organizations calling on others to live in 'unity' and 'openness to diversity' or they have other than the 'best of interests in heart' for doing so.
What a history lesson. How did you miss Moses and da promised land? Another day of peace in the middle east!For 'normal','regular' people, those jews sure as shit gather a lot of hate around themselves. 7000 years or so... They don't believe to be normal either - they are the chosen. The main culprit for antisemitism is semitism - isn't it obvious?
People taking tribalism so close to heart do not create organizations calling on others to live in 'unity' and 'openness to diversity' or they have other than the 'best of interests in heart' for doing so.
Well something is quite obvious.
That's ok buddy, have a great day
That's probably the only ones your people are not blaming, unless your name is Christ. Everybody else is and officially by your shekel-loving government, mind you! 'Murica is not giving us enough shekels' - one cannot make up such stuff.
Never in the world history such hypocrisy and lies has been promoted as an advanced/peace loving culture. To have your students work on internet, doing propaganda for 'free' education is nothing less than shameful/anti-educational. Rewriting history too much? Problems with truth?
One of the best things ever to happen is the internet. An enemy of the chosen people, because it is antisemitic too.
Today you bombed the official syrian government for defending itself against your best of buddies/the terrorists/. Who is on the peace agenda tomorrow?
Never in the world history such hypocrisy and lies has been promoted as an advanced/peace loving culture. To have your students work on internet, doing propaganda for 'free' education is nothing less than shameful/anti-educational. Rewriting history too much? Problems with truth?
One of the best things ever to happen is the internet. An enemy of the chosen people, because it is antisemitic too.
Today you bombed the official syrian government for defending itself against your best of buddies/the terrorists/. Who is on the peace agenda tomorrow?
This part is just an emotional anti-semitic rant so I wont even respond.
Never in world history? can you be any more ridiculous?
Anyway there is nothing inherently wrong with propaganda, it's one of the functions of running a country and a widespread phenonoma. I guess by your twisted logic it's allowed and moral for any other country but Israel, how convenient.
"hasbara" which you are referring to is a counter movement to the BDS, which Ironically is also being founded by some european (illegally) and arab governments.
"To have your student work the internet" is not only false but also dishonestly imply that it is somehow forced or widespread. First there are at most 200 students, most of them not Israelis but jews, who participate in the program. Second the grants aren't coming from the government but from NGOs.
Besides how is giving free education anti-educational?
I think you fail to grasp what the internet is, among many other things it seems. The internet is a platform, for anything you want to believe in you will find someone on the internet feeding you with it. You're not making any sense.
Again your are being dishonest in your claims, I see a pattern here.
No we didn't bombed the syrian government for "defending itself" by launching a chemical attack on it's own citizens killing dozens of civilians (around 400k dead since 2011 btw), oh no we bombed a military airport who hosted Iranian militias. it's not exactly in our best interest to have armed forces of a country who officially wants to exterminate Israel having a foothold at a neighboring country. It must drive you mad that jews are standing up for themselves, the audacity.
So in summary not only you are biased and emotionally involved, giving off subtle anti-semitic undertones, you are also lacking intellectual honesty when presenting "arguments".
Never in world history?
can you be any more ridiculous?Anyway there is nothing inherently wrong with propaganda, it's one of the functions of running a country and a widespread phenonoma. I guess by your twisted logic it's allowed and moral for any other country but Israel, how convenient.
"hasbara" which you are referring to is a counter movement to the BDS, which Ironically is also being founded by some european (illegally) and arab governments.
"To have your student work the internet" is not only false but also dishonestly imply that it is somehow forced or widespread. First there are at most 200 students, most of them not Israelis but jews, who participate in the program. Second the grants aren't coming from the government but from NGOs.
Besides how is giving free education anti-educational?
One of the best things ever to happen is the internet. An enemy of the chosen people, because it is antisemitic too.
Again your are being dishonest in your claims, I see a pattern here.
No we didn't bombed the syrian government for "defending itself" by launching a chemical attack on it's own citizens killing dozens of civilians (around 400k dead since 2011 btw), oh no we bombed a military airport who hosted Iranian militias. it's not exactly in our best interest to have armed forces of a country who officially wants to exterminate Israel having a foothold at a neighboring country. It must drive you mad that jews are standing up for themselves, the audacity.
So in summary not only you are biased and emotionally involved, giving off subtle anti-semitic undertones, you are also lacking intellectual honesty when presenting "arguments".
Loving it! Did you forget how inept your 'history' lesson was? Was it your 'free-education', your intellectual dishonesty or sheer ignorance? But let's go on...
How can sb receive an education, when his 'decision' making process is being hijacked? Education is presenting someone with an unbiased facts and fostering independent opinions. Not state, oh pardon-me everloving NGO's, sponsored internet radical trolling. You know those goyim-bashers present a history even crazier than you do! Free education and its virtues, right?
About the money - you do know you are sucking everyone dry, right? Take it not as an emotional anti-semitic rant, but as a simple fact. You may dislike it, might not want it to be known - but its a fact. You are extorting even Switzerland to pay the downtrodden 'chosen people'. No one else does this and most people have suffered too in the same war.
On to the internet then... One can read the real opinions through anonymity and security, because some lack the proper tools for oppression just yet. No point to invest a lot of time and money acquiring the so-called mainstream media to sculpt public opinion. As I said in short - its antisemitic. Maybe you can't understand it yet?
Dishonest in my claims? You must be reading the talmud too often mate! Less worries about how bad Assad(400K dead since 2011), or the evil Iran - more about how bad your 'democratic' country really is! You did bomb a sovereign country just today and you are standing here saying it was more than justified. Brainwashing at it's best!!! A single bullet wasn't fired on the chosen people, but 8 missiles went the other way. Truly, a peace-loving nation!!!
Perhaps Iranians could do the same? Cause they are seeing everyday Bibi or another jew-muppet saying we should bomb them for their best - another peace offer from Israel, I reckon.
Did you forget how inept your 'history' lesson was? Was it your 'free-education', your intellectual dishonesty or sheer ignorance? But let's go on...How can sb receive an education, when his 'decision' making process is being hijacked? Education is presenting someone with an unbiased facts and fostering independent opinions. Not state, oh pardon-me everloving NGO's, sponsored internet radical trolling. You know those goyim-bashers present a history even crazier than you do! Free education and its virtues, right?
About the money - you do know you are sucking everyone dry, right? Take it not as an emotional anti-semitic rant, but as a simple fact. You may dislike it, might not want it to be known - but its a fact. You are extorting even Switzerland to pay the downtrodden 'chosen people'. No one else does this and most people have suffered too in the same war.
On to the internet then... One can read the real opinions through anonymity and security, because some lack the proper tools for oppression just yet. No point to invest a lot of time and money acquiring the so-called mainstream media to sculpt public opinion. As I said in short - its antisemitic. Maybe you can't understand it yet?
Dishonest in my claims? You must be reading the talmud too often mate! Less worries about how bad Assad(400K dead since 2011), or the evil Iran - more about how bad your 'democratic' country really is! You did bomb a sovereign country just today and you are standing here saying it was more than justified. Brainwashing at it's best!!! A single bullet wasn't fired on the chosen people, but 8 missiles went the other way. Truly, a peace-loving nation!!!
Perhaps Iranians could do the same? Cause they are seeing everyday Bibi or another jew-muppet saying we should bomb them for their best - another peace offer from Israel, I reckon.
Loving it! Did you forget how inept your 'history' lesson was? Was it your 'free-education', your intellectual dishonesty or sheer ignorance? But let's go on...
Did you forget how inept your 'history' lesson was? Was it your 'free-education', your intellectual dishonesty or sheer ignorance? But let's go on...
You are making zero sense again. Beside the very, very small no. of people who participate in "hasbara" (which conveniently you choose to ignore), those people do it from free will as they agree with the cause. You are Being dishonest again when correlating the fact that they receive grants and the fact that it somehow shapes their opinions. I fail to see the connection between doing propaganda at your free time and studying engineering or psychology at university which is education. it it even worth mentioning that vast majority of them are american that study in america?
Again I don't know what history they are spreading and you can call my account of it crazy as much as you want but until you provide any kind of factual rebuttal I can't take it seriously.
It is not a simple fact because you still haven't provided one, but it most certainly another anti-semitic rant. How are we extorting Switzerland exactly? if you are referring to Jews wanting their own money back that was withheld from them as extortion then I'm just speechless.
Edit: just for fun
You still don't get what the internet is about I see
Dishonest in my claims? You must be reading the talmud too often mate! Less worries about how bad Assad(400K dead since 2011), or the evil Iran - more about how bad your 'democratic' country really is! You did bomb a sovereign country just today and you are standing here saying it was more than justified. Brainwashing at it's best!!! A single bullet wasn't fired on the chosen people, but 8 missiles went the other way. Truly, a peace-loving nation!!!
Perhaps Iranians could do the same? Cause they are seeing everyday Bibi or another jew-muppet saying we should bomb them for their best - another peace offer from Israel, I reckon.
Perhaps Iranians could do the same? Cause they are seeing everyday Bibi or another jew-muppet saying we should bomb them for their best - another peace offer from Israel, I reckon.
Not to mention that my country is doing pretty good considering, better then Bulgaria that's for sure
I didn't justify the bombing btw, I explained what was the reason for it as opposed to what you claimed, dishonestly again. To justify it i would need to know the military intelligence behind the strike and I don't, I don't have any reason to doubt the Israeli army decision as of yet.
Anyway from your insistence to keep using derogatory terms regarding jews I got a clear picture of who I'm "debating" with, if it wasn't clear before. I wish you the best of luck, we are going a bit off-topic