Israeli-Palestinian conflict (79 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No

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GordoDeCentral

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
#10,441
Apr 14, 2005
70,876
#10,441
are you serious? why would the french government care about armenians who died over a century ago? the same french who still have not made amends to algeria for killing a million of its citizens? that french government? or the government that chose its timing when turkey had started getting momentum in its bid to join the EU? as for russia, are you serious? anybody with remote knowledge will know the armenians were dragged through the desert for helping the enemy: Russia.
Burden of proof is not on me, it was war you pick the wrong side there are repercussions, crimes and atrocities were committed on both sides, but to go as far as claiming, once again, that there a was plan to systematically kill off greeks, armenians, kurds... etc is myth, no historians worth its salt will hold that view.

N.B: i have no bone in this matter, except for dispelling what i perceive through evidence as being inaccurate assessment of situation
 

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Oz_Bianconero88

Oz_Bianconero88

Senior Member
#10,442
Nov 17, 2012
3,030
#10,442
X said:
are you serious? why would the french government care about armenians who died over a century ago? the same french who still have not made amends to algeria for killing a million of its citizens? that french government? or the government that chose its timing when turkey had started getting momentum in its bid to join the EU? as for russia, are you serious? anybody with remote knowledge will know the armenians were dragged through the desert for helping the enemy: Russia.
Click to expand...
1: I agree what the French did in Algeria was terrible, and attempting to defend their conduct there would be attempting to defend the indefensible. However, at least the French don't place legislation that forbids the topic from being discussed in the public domain. It may be frowned upon, but it is not illegal; and that in itself is a major difference to how the French confront their own dark past in comparison to the Turks.

2: What do you mean am I serious? Yes the Armenians joined the Russians and were well within their rights to do so; they had suffered under the unjust yoke of the Ottoman Empire from the 14th Century until the 20th. That still doesn't justify rounding up entire communities of innocent people and marching them to their merciless deaths, sure the Armenians who joined the uprisings, as gallant and brave as they were, would be fair game, that I have no contest with. That cannot however justify the entire liquidation of entire communities of Armenians within Ottoman territory (and beyond).

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-23/french-assembly-approves-armenian-genocide-law-as-turkey-lobbies.html


X said:
Burden of proof is not on me, it was war you pick the wrong side there are repercussions, crimes and atrocities were committed on both sides, but to go as far as claiming, once again, that there a was plan to systematically kill off greeks, armenians, kurds... etc is myth, no historians worth its salt will hold that view.

N.B: i have no bone in this matter, except for dispelling what i perceive through evidence as being inaccurate assessment of situation
Click to expand...
Indeed, war is war, that I have no qualm, especially between combatants. However, I cannot fathom how you can call a 2/3 reduction in a people's population as a direct result of systematic murder, expulsion, forced marches and scorched earth not a genocide? You think that no historian worth his salt will hold that view, yet a great many do, and on that point you are very wrong. Just because you do not perceive the evidence brought before you as being sufficiently robust to prove the genocide occurred, doesn't mean that you are in fact correct, you could claim black-and-blue that the holocaust didn't happen (and there are a multitude, I'm not saying you are, just for example's sake), but that cannot remove the fact that it did occur, that is what is so wonderful about historical facts, they ultimately speak for themselves. Lastly, you have offered no evidence to prove it being an inaccurate assessment of the situation, you've just basically said 'no I don't believe it', and have told me several times that I am wrong and misinformed. Without facts and evidence of your own, it is a baseless and fatuous stance that holds no water mate, denying as a matter of opinion is lacking in moral and intellectual integrity.
 

Linebreak

Senior Member
#10,443
Sep 18, 2009
16,022
#10,443
Oz_Bianconero88 said:
Granted the final solution, as we know it, wasn't conceived as a plan until the early 40's. However that plan was born out of an already established discrimination and outright hatred fuelled by eugenicist and ideological propaganda, evil deeds are usually the ; dare I say I think you're quibbling with already well established, and commonly accepted fact. I would find it mildly amusing that the French would pass a bill in their parliament to deny something, that according to you, and others, didn't actually exist, I'm sure, for all the faults present in a nation's political class, that the French would have checked the 'facts' before passing such a law. The Russian Duma also passed legislation in 1994 that recognised the occurrence of the Armenian Genocide, though denying it in Russia is not a crime, unlike in France. If you don't mind me asking, what makes you doubt, or what evidence have you come across that leads you to believe no genocide in fact occurred?

Also, how is genocide a bias term? It is a term that describes an action, no more and no less. Following that path of logic, do you likewise think that people who acknowledge the holocaust are inherently biased against Germans?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-living-proof-of-the-armenian-genocide-1918367.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/photograph-links-germans-to-1915-armenia-genocide-8219537.html
http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UgzAi1DD75wC&pg=PA270&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.se/books?id=4mug9LrpLKcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Massacres,+Resistance,+Protectors&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50612F63A5512738DDDA10A94DC405B898CF1D3
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50C10F93C5A15738DDDAC0A94DC405B898CF1D3
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F10C13F83C5512738FDDAD0994D1405B858DF1D3
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9802E6D71E3EE033A2575BC1A96E9C946496D6CF
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F00C17F73C5F13738DDDA10894D0405B868DF1D3
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F70A1FFC395C13738DDDAA0A94DA405B858DF1D3
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/02/opinion/l-armenian-genocide-cannot-be-denied-092266.html












1: They were in Europe because they were originally expelled from Judea by the Romans between after two major uprisings under Emperors Vespasian and Hadrian in the 1st and 2nd century AD respectively. After the mass expulsion of Jews from Jerusalem and Judea they were scattered to many corners of the Empire, and in some cases, beyond.
2: I see no reason for the lol'ing tbh.. Given what Hitler inflicted upon the Jews in Europe, I would consider the man qualified knowing how to conduct a genocide and what would comprise of one, he saw the treatment of the Amenians by the Turks as an inspiration to his own final solution. That is no laughing matter... :(
Click to expand...
It's a massive laughing matter for someone to use him as a reference for anything sane.

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Oz_Bianconero88 said:
1: I agree what the French did in Algeria was terrible, and attempting to defend their conduct there would be attempting to defend the indefensible. However, at least the French don't place legislation that forbids the topic from being discussed in the public domain. It may be frowned upon, but it is not illegal; and that in itself is a major difference to how the French confront their own dark past in comparison to the Turks.

2: What do you mean am I serious? Yes the Armenians joined the Russians and were well within their rights to do so; they had suffered under the unjust yoke of the Ottoman Empire from the 14th Century until the 20th. That still doesn't justify rounding up entire communities of innocent people and marching them to their merciless deaths, sure the Armenians who joined the uprisings, as gallant and brave as they were, would be fair game, that I have no contest with. That cannot however justify the entire liquidation of entire communities of Armenians within Ottoman territory (and beyond).

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-23/french-assembly-approves-armenian-genocide-law-as-turkey-lobbies.html




Indeed, war is war, that I have no qualm, especially between combatants. However, I cannot fathom how you can call a 2/3 reduction in a people's population as a direct result of systematic murder, expulsion, forced marches and scorched earth not a genocide? You think that no historian worth his salt will hold that view, yet a great many do, and on that point you are very wrong. Just because you do not perceive the evidence brought before you as being sufficiently robust to prove the genocide occurred, doesn't mean that you are in fact correct, you could claim black-and-blue that the holocaust didn't happen (and there are a multitude, I'm not saying you are, just for example's sake), but that cannot remove the fact that it did occur, that is what is so wonderful about historical facts, they ultimately speak for themselves. Lastly, you have offered no evidence to prove it being an inaccurate assessment of the situation, you've just basically said 'no I don't believe it', and have told me several times that I am wrong and misinformed. Without facts and evidence of your own, it is a baseless and fatuous stance that holds no water mate, denying as a matter of opinion is lacking in moral and intellectual integrity.
Click to expand...
So they lived under Ottoman rule for 6 centuries but the Ottomans only decided to wipe them out right at the end during World War 1?

Sounds like they were being punished for joining the Russians in WW1.
 

Turk_Bianconero

Juventino
#10,445
Jul 2, 2006
19,450
#10,445
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered an apology to Turkey for a 2010 raid on an aid flotilla that resulted in the deaths of eight Turks and a Turkish American, ending a deep crisis in ties between the two former allies.

22 March 2013 /TODAY'S ZAMAN, İSTANBUL

In a statement carried by Reuters, Netanyahu said he “expressed apology” to the Turkish people for any error that could have led to loss of life in the flotilla incident. He also said Israel has agreed to pay compensation to the families of the victims and that Israel and Turkey agree to work together to improve the humanitarian situation in the Palestinian territories.

A Turkish official in Ankara confirmed the apology, telling Today's Zaman that Netanyahu called Erdoğan to offer an apology and that Erdoğan accepted it.

The breakthrough came as a result of what appears to be a US bid to normalize relations between the two former allies. News of the apology came just after President Barack Obama said that Erdoğan and Netanyahu spoke on the phone on Friday. The announcement came hours after Obama wrapped up a visit to Israel.

"I am hopeful that today's exchange between the two leaders will enable them to engage in deeper cooperation on this and a range of other challenges and opportunities," Obama said in the statement released by the White House. "The United States deeply values our close partnerships with both Turkey and Israel, and we attach great importance to the restoration of positive relations between them in order to advance regional peace and security.”

Turkey has expelled the Israeli ambassador and severed military ties with Israel in protest of the Israeli refusal to apologize for the killing of the eight Turks and a Turkish American by Israeli commandos during a raid on the Mavi Marmara ship, part of a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, in 2010.

Media reports had said the Turkish-Israeli ties were on the agenda during Obama's talks with Israeli leaders. Obama ended his three-day trip to Israel by a visit to the grave of Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism who died in 1904.

Some said the visit to Herzl's grave was an indirect message to Turkey as well, given that it came in the wake of a speech in late February by Erdoğan in which the Turkish prime minister described Zionism as a “crime against humanity” along with fascism and anti-Semitism. The speech drew condemnation from Israel and the United States and UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

Erdoğan said this week that his remarks on Zionism, made during an Alliance of Civilizations meeting in Vienna, should not be misinterpreted by anyone, adding that his comments were directed at Israeli policies in Gaza.

In an interview with the Danish Politiken daily, Erdoğan said he stands behind his remarks against Zionism, claiming that his intent was to criticize Israel's policies of expansion in the occupied territories. “I know that my remarks created controversy, but no one should misunderstand my statements. Everyone knows that my criticism targeted certain critical issues, particularly Israeli policies in Gaza,” Erdoğan said. "On the other hand, we recognized and still recognize Israel as a state within the 1967 boundaries. It should not be forgotten that we have hosted in our country a number of Israeli presidents and prime ministers as part of our peace efforts," Erdoğan was quoted as telling the Danish daily by the Anatolia news agency.

"Turkey, like it did in the past, supports all international and regional efforts for a just, lasting and comprehensive solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict within the perspective of a two-state solution. My several speeches openly condemning anti-Semitism demonstrate my stance. In this regard, I stand behind my speech in Vienna."
 
Vinman

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
#10,447
Jul 16, 2002
11,482
#10,447
Vinman

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
#10,450
Jul 16, 2002
11,482
#10,450
Nzoric said:
All I needed this evening was to read a Vinman post on Palestine. What a $#@!ing idiot.
Click to expand...
next time you need your night ruined all you have to do is simply look in the mirror...

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The Curr said:
So was the Israeli soldier working deep under cover for the Palestinians? Because his account had other pictures of him and the rifle.
Click to expand...
I read the story....if this is true, what we have is a stupid, irresponsible 20 year old who should know better. Not too much different than the 20 year old Palestinians who strap bombs to themselves in order to kill innocent civilians.
 
Maddy

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
#10,457
Jul 10, 2009
16,545
#10,457
@Vinman

We appreciate the support [not really]. But as a proud Jew I can tell you, that you do nothing good to our cause. You create less understanding for the suffering of the Jewish people, so you mind shutting up? We got enough extreme right wing lunatics already. No need to go all Naftali Bennett in here.

Toda lecha.
 
Vinman

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
#10,459
Jul 16, 2002
11,482
#10,459
Goodfella said:
He's really intelligent and we're stupid. There's no question about that, bonBon.

The wise sage Vinman :delpiero:
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smartest thing you've ever said on the forum

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Adonis said:
@Vinman

We appreciate the support [not really]. But as a proud Jew I can tell you, that you do nothing good to our cause. You create less understanding for the suffering of the Jewish people, so you mind shutting up? We got enough extreme right wing lunatics already. No need to go all Naftali Bennett in here.

Toda lecha.
Click to expand...
We being who, Adonis ?? Where are all these other Jews that you speak of ?? Funny, I never see you in here adding anything, be it positive or negative to this thread. Proud Jew my ass !!

Your safe in Copenhagen, but let me tell you, I am friends with many soldiers and Special Forces/Counter Terror guys who, if they read the hate in this thread, would not hesitate to respond.

Do you know or understand that Israel is surrounded by enemies in all directions (except of course on the Mediterranean Sea) who have the same mind set as many of those in here, who's ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel ?? Oh wait, it doesn't concern you, because you don't live there.

Good thing most in Israel don't have your liberal disposition, because you would either lose your country, be dead, or both !!!

Shalom Shabbat
 
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