Israeli-Palestinian conflict (39 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


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OP

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6,942
    Robert Fisk: Western leaders are too cowardly to help save lives


    It is a fact that it is ordinary people, activists, call them what you will, who now take decisions to change events

    Has Israel lost it? Can the Gaza War of 2008-09 (1,300 dead) and the Lebanon War of 2006 (1,006 dead) and all the other wars and now yesterday's killings mean that the world will no longer accept Israel's rule?

    Don't hold your breath.

    You only have to read the gutless White House statement – that the Obama administration was "working to understand the circumstances surrounding the tragedy". Not a single word of condemnation. And that's it. Nine dead. Just another statistic to add to the Middle East's toll.

    But it's not.

    In 1948, our politicians – the Americans and the British – staged an airlift into Berlin. A starving population (our enemies only three years before) were surrounded by a brutal army, the Russians, who had erected a fence around the city. The Berlin airlift was one of the great moments in the Cold War. Our soldiers and our airmen risked and gave their lives for these starving Germans.

    Incredible, isn't it? In those days, our politicians took decisions; our leaders took decisions to save lives. Messrs Attlee and Truman knew that Berlin was important in moral and human as well as political terms.

    And today? It was people – ordinary people, Europeans, Americans, Holocaust survivors – yes, for heaven's sake, survivors of the Nazis – who took the decision to go to Gaza because their politicians and their statesmen had failed them.

    Where were our politicians yesterday? Well, we had the ridiculous Ban Ki-moon, the White House's pathetic statement, and dear Mr Blair's expression of "deep regret and shock at the tragic loss of life". Where was Mr Cameron? Where was Mr Clegg?

    Back in 1948, they would have ignored the Palestinians, of course. It is, after all, a terrible irony that the Berlin airlift coincided with the destruction of Arab Palestine.

    But it is a fact that it is ordinary people, activists, call them what you will, who now take decisions to change events. Our politicians are too spineless, too cowardly, to take decisions to save lives. Why is this? Why didn't we hear courageous words from Messrs Cameron and Clegg yesterday?

    For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?) been gunned down by any other Middle Eastern army (which the Israeli army is, is it not?) there would have been waves of outrage.

    And what does this say about Israel? Isn't Turkey a close ally of Israel? Is this what the Turks can expect? Now Israel's only ally in the Muslim world is saying this is a massacre – and Israel doesn't seem to care.

    But then Israel didn't care when London and Canberra expelled Israeli diplomats after British and Australian passports were forged and then provided to the assassins of Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. It didn't care when it announced new Jewish settlements on occupied land in East Jerusalem while Joe Biden, the Vice-President of its erstwhile ally, the United States, was in town. Why should Israel care now?

    How did we get to this point? Maybe because we all grew used to seeing the Israelis kill Arabs, maybe the Israelis grew used to killing Arabs. Now they kill Turks. Or Europeans. Something has changed in the Middle East these past 24 hours – and the Israelis (given their extraordinarily stupid political response to the slaughter) don't seem to have grasped what has happened. The world is tired of these outrages. Only the politicians are silent.

    Diplomatic storms

    *Goldstone report, November 2009

    Israel launched Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 with the declared aim of halting rocket fire from Gaza into Israel. More than 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the three-week conflict along with 13 Israelis. The South African jurist Richard Goldstone's report into the conflict found both Israel and the Hamas movement that controls the Strip guilty of war crimes, but focused more on Israel. Israel refused to co-operate with Goldstone and described his report as distorted and biased.

    * The al-Mabhouh assassination, January-May 2010

    Britain and Australia expelled Israeli diplomats after concluding that Israel had forged British and Australian passports used by assassins to kill a Hamas commander in Dubai. Israel has neither confirmed or denied a role in the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in his hotel room in January. Britain said such misuse of British passports was "intolerable". Australia said it was not the behaviour of "a nation with whom we have had such a close, friendly and supportive relationship".

    *Settlements row, March 2010

    Israel announces plans, during visit by US Vice-President Joe Biden, to build 1,600 homes for Jews in an area of the West Bank annexed by Israel. The announcement triggers unusually harsh criticism from the United States. Washington said it damaged its efforts to revive the Middle East peace process. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the project was an insult. Netanyahu said he was blindsided by planning bureaucrats and apologised to Biden. Today's meeting with Barack Obama at the White House, called off by Mr Netanyahu so he could return home to deal with the flotilla crisis, was supposed to be another part of the fence-mending between the two allies.

    *Nuclear secrecy, May 2010

    Israel, widely assumed to have the Middle East's only nuclear arsenal, has faced renewed calls to sign a global treaty barring the spread of atomic weapons. Signatories of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) last week called for a conference in 2012 to discuss banning weapons of mass destruction throughout the Middle East. The declaration was adopted by all 189 parties to the NPT, including the US. It urged Israel to sign the NPT and put its nuclear facilities under UN safeguards.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...too-cowardly--to-help-save-lives-1987989.html
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6,943
    IF they do take them out, and that's a humongous IF, all you non-arabs in this thread who are against Israel are gonna wish they were still there instead of Hezbollah and Hamas.

    You foreigners' hippy drama gets on my nerves...
    Sooner or later, They will be wiped off along with all their allies in the region.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,236
    What Israel feed the media with is not exactly 100% certain either. I don't find their propaganda more effective to be honest. They are arrogantly repeating the same shit most of time. Do you really think people all over the world find their words more convincing and that's why you wouldn't see a Danish mob protesting against what Israel do in Gaza?
    I know they're more convincing in Belgium (albeit because we have strong Jewish community in Antwerp). It's strange because we have a much larger muslim community, yet it's the Jews we don't want to offend. What you see is that a lot of people in European countries think of the Israelis as rational and of their opponents as emotional. ReBeL's pictures only reinforce that image. What would be far more convincing is make a list of human rights and Geneva convention violations by Isreal. You limit the list to things you're 100% certain of and that are not really up for debate. That's how you make an Isreal apologist say what he really thinks.

    I know that what Isreal feed the media with is far from 100% certain, but they stand much stronger politically, they can afford to tell half truths.

    to those defending the israeli actions as self defense, you do realize that every terrorist act committed thus far by the palestinians falls under that same umbrella. You kill innocent unarmed people who you feel, see here it's all your perception, present a threat to your safety. Heres to hoping you stay consistent and have the same stance when it's israelis who are the victims.
    Not quite. It's a much more complex situation than this one. I wouldn't classify this as self defense though as there was no attack or real threat.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6,945
    What would be far more convincing is make a list of human rights and Geneva convention violations by Isreal. You limit the list to things you're 100% certain of and that are not really up for debate. That's how you make an Isreal apologist say what he really thinks.
    What is the use of this list?
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,236
    I'm not lying, mate. If anything, the closest thing to a lie would be assuming that Rebel is posting all these pictures for propaganda purposes. That is something you can't prove, and in all honesty, only a retard would post such stuff thinking they will sway opinion.

    It's people holding a flag, dude. That's all that it is.
    Yes, you are lying. First you say I defend the UN. I hadn't even mentioned the UN. Then you say I want censorship (I still don't know what my goal would be), which I also never asked for. Not once did I say he should remove the pictures. We can do this a thousand times, but I don't find it a particularly funny game. It's a poor and childish way of debating and I'm not going to do it.

    @ReBeL: I don't find the pictures offensive, I just don't understand why you post them. You make solid arguments and somehow the pictures take something from them.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,236
    What is the use of this list?
    It eliminates guess work. If you ever get the chance to defend your cause, you're prepared and you've got something they will have to listen to. If you present one case you're not 100% certain of, they'll just say you're wrong about that case and send you away.
     

    IrishZebra

    Western Imperialist
    Jun 18, 2006
    23,327
    You quickly changed your tune, havent you? You sounded quite different in past discussions about this "confllict", now you have a complete U turn? (not saying you were Israel apologists, but the other side of the debate, with JBF mainly) Is it because of the Irish passports and ship thing that triggered it? If so, how very selfish of you :p
    I believe you can go back an look through every single one of my post Os and you will find that I am anti-Zionism but without the fanatical whitewashing of facts.

    I you bother to check, which you won't of course because let's face it nobody would I only allude to the fact that; ther exists no Palestinian state factually, Hamas are terrorists, Israel are Terrorists,most states are terrorists, suicide bombing is a cowardly practice as is wall building.

    I've never been Pro-Israel pre se, just not a wholehearted Hamas supporter plus I don't think we can use evidence of what anybody said to JBF in his early days of membership now can we :D?
     
    Jul 2, 2006
    18,848
    - This was a very well planned action with an intention to provoke something big in the future (you can even call this a conspiracy theory)
    .
    It was planned. They would never take a step without planning. israel so pissed off after what happened in Davos.


    That reaction was not familiar for them. They thought we don't interfere what is going on but this country is changing. So they are 'punishing us'. Increasing terrorist attacks in southeast is a sign. Connection between israel and terrorist organization accepted by a minister, it's official now.

    But they shot their own foot. Their fear was Turkiye is becoming another Iran but after this massacre it'll be worse for them. They have lost their only ''democratic - secular'' ally in middle east. (we were ally because of military regime and their israel love)

    Relationship will never be restored. Every crime they commit is awakening people here.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6,953
    @ReBeL: I don't find the pictures offensive, I just don't understand why you post them. You make solid arguments and somehow the pictures take something from them.
    It eliminates guess work. If you ever get the chance to defend your cause, you're prepared and you've got something they will have to listen to. If you present one case you're not 100% certain of, they'll just say you're wrong about that case and send you away.
    I'm open to any discussion regarding the whole conflict. It does not need any lists IMO. Current events are enough to know where the right is.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6,954
    To be fair, Israeli people die as well and there's no pictures of them posted up here.
    You are free to post them.

    The reason that there was no photos for dead Israelis in the conflict here is because there was NONE since a long time.

    Prove me wrong please.

    What's a resistent?
    A freedom fighter.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6,957
    Okey Dokey

    EDITED

    Of Course none of these are Chronological but doesn't everybody feel more balanced now?


    When were these pics taken?

    You don't see me posting random pics for killed people without explaining the method of killing and its date. I think it is the right of the recepient to have the whole facts.

    By the way, the third pic is a famous one for a Palestinian child killed in the last Gaza attack before one year, mate...

    Could you please provide me with statistics of the Israelis killed in this conflict since the beginning of 2010?
     

    IrishZebra

    Western Imperialist
    Jun 18, 2006
    23,327
    Fucked if I know where they were taken, I they're from an online modules for my Degree.

    The Third one? It said Israeli child under it, mind you it was hotlinked or whatever you call it.

    I have no statistics, one death on either side is too much.

    Found this funny pic View attachment 41903
     

    Del=Piero

    New Member
    Sep 23, 2006
    6
    You should re-check your false media sources, as they are constantly feed you with wrong information (and it has been happening for years).

    These soldiers were attacked before they could even say a word. The other ships, which did not attack the Israeli soldiers, were safely driven to Israeli coasts in order to check the groceries they had brought to the Palestinians. Nobody was hurt on those ships. So tell me, are Peace-makers usually own knives? Do they attack people the way they did? These were not Peace-makers, but TERRORISTS.
     

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