Is torture acceptable? (3 Viewers)

[Martin]

Martin,

I think torture doesn't work. Therefore I also think it can't be justified, because it would basically be meaningless violence. But is this what you meant?

It's a much deeper question than most people realize. Torture has a number of implications:

1. It completely sucks as an interrogation method. Subjects under torture will say anything and therefore torture yields lots of unreliable testimony. (This is well documented btw.)
2. Torture dramatically lowers our standards of humanity and our perception of what is acceptable and not. Once the US started using torture it shattered their credibility in statements about human rights. It also means any despot can easily justify torture. "Well, they are doing it, so why can't we."
3. It also means you have no standing whatsoever to criticize other states for their oppression of their own citizens. You torture people ffs.
4. Once you introduce torture you can't control it. Officially, it is only used "against our enemies". But who decides who's an enemy or not? Ultimately, it's used against citizens and enemies alike, and it just becomes another government tool of terror.

To me it's a no brainer. Torture portrayed in movies "when the bomb is about to go off" completely fail to account for the consequences of torture.

People may wonder why a political question appears in a religion forum. It's very interesting to me that people "who get their morals from god" and if you push them will inevitably claim they are more moral than you godless person are, are more accepting of torture than the rest of us.

Interesting, but not surprising. People who are used to being told what to do can quite easily be suspected of having a lower threshold for propaganda resistance. Mind you, in this case it is not speculation, it is an empirical fact.

 

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[Raz]

Give me one from the New Testament And people kill each other not just in the name of religion you history loving haters

Wait? So now we have to look just at the parts that we think is good and deny the rest? Nice, so who is judging what we can deny and what not?

 

[Raz]

that's like saying 'guns don't kill people, it's the people using them who kill people'

Its not the same, because gun cant kill anyone without a user. While in religion supposedly god himself gives the orders to sacrifice.

 

[Seven]

It's a much deeper question than most people realize. Torture has a number of implications:

1. It completely sucks as an interrogation method. Subjects under torture will say anything and therefore torture yields lots of unreliable testimony. (This is well documented btw.)
2. Torture dramatically lowers our standards of humanity and our perception of what is acceptable and not. Once the US started using torture it shattered their credibility in statements about human rights. It also means any despot can easily justify torture. "Well, they are doing it, so why can't we."
3. It also means you have no standing whatsoever to criticize other states for their oppression of their own citizens. You torture people ffs.
4. Once you introduce torture you can't control it. Officially, it is only used "against our enemies". But who decides who's an enemy or not? Ultimately, it's used against citizens and enemies alike, and it just becomes another government tool of terror.

To me it's a no brainer. Torture portrayed in movies "when the bomb is about to go off" completely fail to account for the consequences of torture.

People may wonder why a political question appears in a religion forum. It's very interesting to me that people "who get their morals from god" and if you push them will inevitably claim they are more moral than you godless person are, are more accepting of torture than the rest of us.

Interesting, but not surprising. People who are used to being told what to do can quite easily be suspected of having a lower threshold for propaganda resistance. Mind you, in this case it is not speculation, it is an empirical fact.

Now this is interesting. Any answers, people?

 

[pitbull]

Wait? So now we have to look just at the parts that we think is good and deny the rest? Nice, so who is judging what we can deny and what not?

It's not me saying. Now it's your turn to go and read the Bible. The main point of the New Testament, is that Jesus made himself the lamb and no other sacrifices are needed anymore.

 

[David01]

who can argue with that

 

[Raz]

It's not me saying. Now it's your turn to go and read the Bible. The main point of the New Testament, is that Jesus made himself the lamb and no other sacrifices are needed anymore.

Yes I know, its a great story, but dont you think it may have something to do with the whole situation at that time, people needed a god who is good, loving, caring and etc, they were really tired of gods that were only self-centered, cruel and didnt care about anything but themselfs.

So at that time here comes new dude who preaches all that stuff, so of course everybody will jump onto the ship. Its all political and good marketing. Nothing more.

What interests me is how an omnipotent being can be so cruel and then change to being so good, as if he made some sort of mistake and tried to correct it. I thought gods dont make mistakes?

 

[pitbull]

Yes I know, its a great story, but dont you think it may have something to do with the whole situation at that time, people needed a god who is good, loving, caring and etc, they were really tired of gods that were only self-centered, cruel and didnt care about anything but themselfs.

So at that time here comes new dude who preaches all that stuff, so of course everybody will jump onto the ship. Its all political and good marketing. Nothing more.

What interests me is how an omnipotent being can be so cruel and then change to being so good, as if he made some sort of mistake and tried to correct it. I thought gods dont make mistakes?

How come the God of the Old Testiment is cruel? Again you mate have some reading to do. There are some places, which are hard to understand, but the basic message certainly is the opposit to what you are trying to propose. And it wasn't like one day a man just decided to make a good business and die at the cross - wtf? Which good businessman would go for that?

 

[David01]

if torture is all about punishing someone because he has different views then there would be a lot of crunching bones over here
I better get out of this place quickly

 

[Fred]

off course but without a gun people won't be able to shoot anyone with a gun
and on topic without religions people won't be able to torture or kill anyone in the name of God
you get my point

No but if one did not have a gun and had the intention to kill, he'd use something else.

 

[Martin]

No but if one did not have a gun and had the intention to kill, he'd use something else.

This is a false argument. It's a lot easier to kill someone a thousand kilometers away at the press of a button (cruise missile, nuclear bomb, whatever) than it is to kill a man with your bare hands. And this has a lot to do with torture also. It's a lot harder to accept torture when you're doing it yourself than when you hire someone to do it for you. As long as we keep these things at a comfortable distance we can refuse to acknowledge them.

The whole point about the gun is that it's instantaneous. Never has there been such an effective way to kill before. If you had to use a knife to stab someone many times and the blood was gushing out it wouldn't be the same thing.

EDIT: It is of course true that if you really really want to kill someone then you will find a way. But that's precisely the point!! MOST OF THE TIME killing happens at that edge of conviction and rationality. If it were just a little harder to kill lots of lives would be saved. Guns make this much too easy.

 

[Snoop]

Martin make a thread/poll about torturing animals. And ask if it is acceptable to cut them with the mother of torturing.. The results will be shocking no doubt!!

 

[Martin]

Martin make a thread/poll about torturing animals. And ask if it is acceptable to cut them with the mother of torturing.. The results will be shocking no doubt!!

Why don't you? I'm not interested in animals.

 

[icemaη]

 

[Snoop]

Man don't tell me you don't feel anything when an animal is beaten to death, or getting cut in pain to get prepared as food.

 

[icemaη]

If you are killing animals, do it quickly... With the least amount of pain possible... Be it for food or leather or anything... No peeling the skin off when the animal is still alive... that shit is gross..

 

[Martin]

Man don't tell me you don't feel anything when an animal is beaten to death, or getting cut in pain to get prepared as food.

I haven't really thought about it. I've never lived on a farm and I hate animals so I'm never around them. Of course, if it was my job to slaughter them I might have a very different opinion about it. But this is exactly the point I was making to Fred just now, that it's a lot harder to confront something if it's right before your eyes.

 

[Raz]

How come the God of the Old Testiment is cruel? Again you mate have some reading to do. There are some places, which are hard to understand, but the basic message certainly is the opposit to what you are trying to propose. And it wasn't like one day a man just decided to make a good business and die at the cross - wtf? Which good businessman would go for that?

You dont think the god was cruel? Almost everything to him was to the death, well not only to the death, but to the curse of four or five generations if you misbehave and there are pleanty of stupid reasons one can misbehave with. Thats loving and caring right?

Further god wiped villages just for the sake of it, just to show his power, and boy you are out of luck if you arent from the chosen tribe of his because then you almost have no rights whatsoever, unless if you are a slave to them, then you have some rights.

God slaughtered whole tribes, just to prove his power to his people, what about the ones he slaughtered? Thats got to show he is loving right?

And even if you are a Jew, his chosen one you still are walking a thin line, you misbehave - you are dead. No he is just a perfect explanation of caring and loving guy .

And In the New testament such a change in his character, his personality, like it was a different god? You will say its because of Jesus. Well if there is such a big change dont you think its like admiting you were wrong and trying to correct things?

At that time almost if not all of the gods in Europe were this cruel, so a change in philosophy really did gave Jesus or whatever did this a boost. Everybody were tired of being pushed down like that, so here came a loving, forgiving, caring god. And everbody fell in love with this wishful philosophy.

Religion is the oldest lie there is. And manipulation at its finest.

 

[Snoop]

I haven't really thought about it. I've never lived on a farm and I hate animals so I'm never around them. Of course, if it was my job to slaughter them I might have a very different opinion about it. But this is exactly the point I was making to Fred just now, that it's a lot harder to confront something if it's right before your eyes.

yeah I know what you mean, I haven't seen much animals being killed in front of me neither, but seeing it on tv was enough for me to think about it. I bet they don't show that much there (which is the right thing to do).

 

[Salvo]

if i see an animal being killed in front of me , for me its like a human being killed.

if its being killed for food i understand but it still hurts me if that makes sense i cant stand killing things for fun.