Is it okay to make fun of religion? (16 Viewers)

Is it OK to make fun of Religion?

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Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
This is from the other thread.



Isn't that like discrimination?

Even if I don't believe in either, I'm still in or bound to go to one of them.

This is what we're talking about. People of religion pushing their own views on to others and making them feel bad for not being a "believer."
lol, you're asking me. I didn't come knocking on your door telling you any of this.

You, based on your lifestyle decided whether you're going to heaven or hell. No other human as the answer to that question.

If you are an atheist, yet you respect others beliefs and lead a respectable life then I don't see why you would be worried.

You don't have to be a Muslim to go to heaven and in any case Hell is not eternal.
 

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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
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  • Thread Starter #242
    Hence your faith is in empirical justification.
    You know the term "faith" is basically unbreakable, you can stretch it as far as you want. There is this thing called solipsism which says the only thing you can ever know for sure are your own thoughts, because you don't know that your senses aren't deceiving you. So in other words vision is also faith, right? And well, reasoning, the belief that taking a set of axiom and producing a conclusion happens in a correct fashion, that's also faith, right? Because your brain could be cheating for all you know.

    And so on it goes, but what good is all this? Now you say empiricism is also faith, that thing that specifically tries to be a counterpoint to faith is also faith. So if everything in the world is faith, then the word doesn't mean anything anymore.

    Which is all well and good, but IMO, no different than any other religion in my book.
    But you don't seriously mean that. It is different. Religion is based on supernatural entities in some form or another, and that is in no way similar to empiricism.

    And so you're going to say "that too is religion" so then there's nothing that isn't religion and again we're full circle.

    I know a lot of people I respect who have other mechanisms for basing their faith. I don't think I can be as flippant as you in dismissing some and not others because my opinion somehow invalidates someone else's.
    Why not, we do it in every facet of life. Fight over who's right and who's wrong. Ever seen a tv show about lawyers?

    You seem to think you can, and that's clearly your right. But I find irony in that some of the very things you rail against about some belief systems you seem to feel are perfectly acceptable in your own. Because that's so old hat in human history, it's beyond being a mere ancient fallacy.
    Which things?

    I don't think you are any different. If I was presuming that you thought that this made you different, then I misjudged.
    Hey, today I believe religion is a hazard. Tomorrow I might think different. Who knows, I try not to be dogmatic.

    Well, everything is fair game in my book. But that's just my skewed opinion. It comes down to being about the extent.

    Rights of human beings are always coming into conflict. And it's rare that you ever find unilateral solutions being the right answer -- which is why I don't see it as an "if" question but a "when" question.

    But I'm just preaching to the choir it sounds here. :)
    I'm sure this is obvious to you, but I find a deep irrationality in what some people express that religion is beyond criticism. That is my point here. It's also what some atheist shall we say activists have been saying and I basically got it from them, didn't produce it myself.

    Now that is much better!
    But then you would still have said I'm just bashing on religion.
     

    Eddy

    The Maestro
    Aug 20, 2005
    12,644
    Come on. The place sells it soul for profits, enslaves foreigners to do their work, and then punishes them by jail time even if they owe 1 cent to some entity. Throw in the torture techniques by the Emirs and what not, then you have Tahir's hell on earth as he keeps going on about.

    Not the physical oil. The paper oil, if you know what I mean.
    To be honest, if they are Arab foreigners, they don't have the best jobs, but if there European or American, they get the best jobs available. Those torture techniques are only for the Indian (slave)labour workers sadly. I feel for them, you see them everywhere sleeping in the hot and humidity, and its like what, 52 degrees now.
     
    OP
    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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  • Thread Starter #245
    No need.

    It was more to underscore a previous meta exchange in here between Martin and I where we had been talking about repetitive discussions that get heated and yet don't propagate new threads and polls every day (e.g., Del Piero vs. Zlatan) and those that do...

    Namely, the fact that you cross-referenced another thread is one small example underscoring how we're just piling on the same discussion in multiple threads in parallel at the same time and making a mess of things to follow/manage.
    One small and unitary example. :p
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    83,510
    You know the term "faith" is basically unbreakable, you can stretch it as far as you want. There is this thing called solipsism which says the only thing you can ever know for sure are your own thoughts, because you don't know that your senses aren't deceiving you.
    Memory is fragile, and so are the senses. You could get an account of a crime scene from five different witnesses there, and each could see something at least subtly, if not radically, different. Knowing that, I don't have 100% supreme confidence in how even I interpret the physical world.

    So if everything in the world is faith, then the word doesn't mean anything anymore.
    My point is that every person has a personal system of metaphysical beliefs and the codes for supporting it. No exceptions. And that those codes are not without their imperfections. No exceptions.

    I can see the argument you might make that it could be a cop-out, since what to believe in if everything is subject to error. But accepting the error bars is critical, particularly in scientific thought.

    But you don't seriously mean that. It is different. Religion is based on supernatural entities in some form or another, and that is in no way similar to empiricism.
    I do seriously mean that. I don't have it in myself, but I know people who truly have a sensation of the soul that motivates them. People I respect and would have little reason to believe that they're just some duped crackpot who never seriously thought through things.

    Any "-ism" is only as good as the person who believes in it. That is perhaps one of my core beliefs, so to speak.

    And so you're going to say "that too is religion" so then there's nothing that isn't religion and again we're full circle.
    What some people call religion is just one flavor of what I express as personal metaphysical belief systems. And I lump things like atheism and agnosticism (both are "-ism"s, after all) in the same boat.

    Why not, we do it in every facet of life. Fight over who's right and who's wrong. Ever seen a tv show about lawyers?
    Because religious intolerant zealots come in all forms -- men of the cloth, and men against the cloth. All driven by their metaphysical beliefs. And all deluded by their arrogant superiority.

    And one of my core beliefs is that the zealots of any flavor are dangerous and deluded. I have a stronger affinity who see multiple possibilities for truth in different forms. That to me is an interesting exercise. But that's just me.

    History is littered with those who suddenly felt they had the pieces of the puzzle to finally proclaim theirs as the one, true belief system. And every time without fail, we've found reasons to question those claims. We've heard that story many times before with different casts of characters -- it's innately human. The key is recognizing the need to examine that by looking inward, not outward.

    Hey, today I believe religion is a hazard. Tomorrow I might think different. Who knows, I try not to be dogmatic.
    And my counterpoint would be that people who think of themselves as devoutly anti-religious can be just as much of a hazard. No worse so, because while they wouldn't know it -- neither do the people who are many of the zealots of specific religious faiths for that matter. But no better a hazard either. (Hardline Communism, anyone?)

    But then you would still have said I'm just bashing on religion.
    I'm not such a San Francisco crystal-wearing hippie freak as to assume that all forms of faith have equal merits. Perhaps that much might surprise you a little.
     
    OP
    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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  • Thread Starter #250
    Memory is fragile, and so are the senses. You could get an account of a crime scene from five different witnesses there, and each could see something at least subtly, if not radically, different. Knowing that, I don't have 100% supreme confidence in how even I interpret the physical world.
    Whoever claimed perfection?

    The point is you have to believe in something, and it is indeed a cop out to say that if you believe then it doesn't matter what you believe or why, because of the sheer fact that you have belief. We have to fabricate some set of axioms (my mind is rational, my senses are accurate), but we certainly can minimize them, as a coder would say the less code the fewer bugs.

    My point is that every person has a personal system of metaphysical beliefs and the codes for supporting it. No exceptions. And that those codes are not without their imperfections. No exceptions.

    I can see the argument you might make that it could be a cop-out, since what to believe in if everything is subject to error. But accepting the error bars is critical, particularly in scientific thought.
    But whoever said the error bars are equal in every belief system?

    Any "-ism" is only as good as the person who believes in it. That is perhaps one of my core beliefs, so to speak.
    Well that is an altogether different discussion. It's also very unsocialist unlike religion where everyone is supposed to be as good as the next :D

    What some people call religion is just one flavor of what I express as personal metaphysical belief systems. And I lump things like athiesm and agnosticism in the same boat.
    You lump too much. Atheism is not religion. It may be similar in some ways but when you're using a word to include basically its opposite into the same set, then alarm bells should go off somewhere in your language center.

    Because religious intolerant zealots come in all forms -- men of the cloth, and men against the cloth. All driven by their metaphysical beliefs. And all deluded by their arrogant superiority.

    And one of my core beliefs is that the zealots of any flavor are dangerous and deluded. I have a stronger affinity who see multiple possibilities for truth in different forms. That to me is an interesting exercise. But that's just me.
    Are you saying the Enlightenment was basically just an exercise in trolling and intellectual oppression? Or did it actually advance our civilization?

    History is littered with those who suddenly felt they had the pieces of the puzzle to finally proclaim theirs as the one, true belief system. And every time without fail, we've found reasons to question those claims. We've heard that story many times before with different casts of characters -- it's innately human. The key is recognizing the need to examine that by looking inward, not outward.
    For once we agree. Beliefs should be questioned. Many a political movement eventually fails because it has too little diversity and dissent, ultimately becomes its own undoing. What started as rational and empirical became dogmatic.

    And my counterpoint would be that people who think of themselves as devoutly anti-religious can be just as much of a hazard. No worse so, because while they wouldn't know it -- neither do the people who are many of the zealots of specific religious faiths for that matter. But no better a hazard either.
    This term I'm not familiar with.

    I'm not such a San Francisco crystal-wearing hippie freak as to assume that all forms of faith have equal merits. Perhaps that much might surprise you a little.
    Pardon, but that's basically how I read you, captain.

    Your argument comes off very much "Well we tried that once and we didn't succeed so let's not rock the boat and try again. Ultimately noone is perfect and there is no ultimate truth."
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    Swag, quick question.

    I was debating with Martin the other day and I was a little shocked with a statement he made.

    Do you think it is possible to conclusively conclude, given the current evidence we possess, that God does not exist 100%? from an intellectual standpoint ofcourse.
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    83,510
    The point is you have to believe in something, and it is indeed a cop out to say that if you believe then it doesn't matter what you believe or why, because of the sheer fact that you have belief.
    It's innate. It's universal.

    You lump too much. Atheism is not religion. It may be similar in some ways but when you're using a word to include basically its opposite into the same set, then alarm bells should go off somewhere in your language center.
    People can be atheists for different reasons, that is certainly true. So I am probably mixing here as atheism isn't so much a set of beliefs in itself. But the point for me is that the reasons and systems of belief that makes people atheists are no different in my mind than what make people religious.

    Your argument comes off very much "Well we tried that once and we didn't succeed so let's not rock the boat and try again. Ultimately noone is perfect and there is no ultimate truth."
    More that history is littered with the failed ideologies of those convinced of their superior thinking and belief systems. Many of those behind people's adherence to atheism today I see as little different and subject to the same hubris.

    We may know more now than we know in the Middle Ages. But in the big scheme of things, we can't even figure out how the brain works yet. We're a primitive, self-drooling lot as far as intellect goes still.

    Swag, quick question.

    I was debating with Martin the other day and I was a little shocked with a statement he made.

    Do you think it is possible to conclusively conclude, given the current evidence we possess, that God does not exist 100%? from an intellectual standpoint ofcourse.
    I think it's next to impossible to disprove much of anything -- and that includes the Sisyphean, mind-blowing task of proving the non-existence of what many people call God.

    Proving existence is a much easier problem to solve.
     
    OP
    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
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  • Thread Starter #258
    More that history is littered with the failed ideologies of those convinced of their superior thinking and belief systems. Many of those behind people's adherence to atheism today I see as little different and subject to the same hubris.
    Some people see today's atheist movement as a continuation of the Enlightenment, which I think is a good standard to aspire to (minus the violence). I don't think that was in any way a failure.

    We may know more now than we know in the Middle Ages. But in the big scheme of things, we can't even figure out how the brain works yet. We're a primitive, self-drooling lot as far as intellect goes still.
    But at one point we didn't know what the yellow thing in the sky was either. Once we figure out how the brain work we'll still be saying the same thing, that we know nothing yet. Unfalsifiable argument isn't all that helpful.
     

    Quetzalcoatl

    It ain't hard to tell
    Aug 22, 2007
    65,575
    I didn't go through the pages in this thread. I just wanna know what the general concensus is.

    Do you think that making fun of someone's
    football team = religion = race = dead mother = retarded sister?

    I.e. if it's okay to make fun of someone's football team, then all above are also okay?
     

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