If you want religious nuts... (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter Martin
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It is, I sometimes just stop and shake my head in complete amazement....
misinterpretations....now before I go on, I am not claiming that what Muslim's literature is perfect (except for Quran, I am adament to believe otherwise).
But this brings us to the Hadith system. Hadith are not all the same, they are ranked and catogarized according to their credibility. There are perhaps more than 10 different kind of ranks. On what criteria is it ranked? Well obviously is the Hadith in accordance with the general set rules of Islam, if there is a Hadith saying that for example saying that alcohol is permitted for muslims, then that Hadith is obviosly "mawdoo" or falsified. Then its ranked on the narrators. Each narrator has a profile of how good or bad he is, is he a good memorizer, his political allegience (if any)...etc. So for example "Jack from Ed from Mike from Sean from...etc" how good was Jack as a memorizer? Did mike have any political or altirior motives to edit or change the hadith? Could Sean ever met Mike? If yes when did they meet? and where? All this and much much more are considered when ranking a Hadith....
Finally and most importantly, where misinterpretation is concerned, another part of the ranking system is, through how many lines of narrators did this hadith arrive to us? If one has a rank if two it has another rank, three another...and so on...
I know all this may not interest you, but as I said earlier, I feel the obligation of represnting my people and religion in a good and CORRECT manner...and clear out any misconceptions.
What is lost is lost, we can do nothing about it really. But luckil, and I am talking about Islam here, I believe that what ever is lost there are other peices that we have now, that could be the key to whats lost.
As I said earlier, Andalucia is a great example of a perfect society. Altair would love to back me up on this....Religious tolerence was unheard of before Islam. Islam introduced it to the world....and now, sadly and rightly so, the world is trying to re-teach us
misinterpretations....now before I go on, I am not claiming that what Muslim's literature is perfect (except for Quran, I am adament to believe otherwise).
But this brings us to the Hadith system. Hadith are not all the same, they are ranked and catogarized according to their credibility. There are perhaps more than 10 different kind of ranks. On what criteria is it ranked? Well obviously is the Hadith in accordance with the general set rules of Islam, if there is a Hadith saying that for example saying that alcohol is permitted for muslims, then that Hadith is obviosly "mawdoo" or falsified. Then its ranked on the narrators. Each narrator has a profile of how good or bad he is, is he a good memorizer, his political allegience (if any)...etc. So for example "Jack from Ed from Mike from Sean from...etc" how good was Jack as a memorizer? Did mike have any political or altirior motives to edit or change the hadith? Could Sean ever met Mike? If yes when did they meet? and where? All this and much much more are considered when ranking a Hadith....
Finally and most importantly, where misinterpretation is concerned, another part of the ranking system is, through how many lines of narrators did this hadith arrive to us? If one has a rank if two it has another rank, three another...and so on...
I know all this may not interest you, but as I said earlier, I feel the obligation of represnting my people and religion in a good and CORRECT manner...and clear out any misconceptions.
What is lost is lost, we can do nothing about it really. But luckil, and I am talking about Islam here, I believe that what ever is lost there are other peices that we have now, that could be the key to whats lost.
As I said earlier, Andalucia is a great example of a perfect society. Altair would love to back me up on this....Religious tolerence was unheard of before Islam. Islam introduced it to the world....and now, sadly and rightly so, the world is trying to re-teach us
I'm not familiar with that political system so I should probably refrain from comments.
That depends
Turkey's "division" between church and state is laughable as far as I'm concerned.
As for Arab countries: why can't they have a 'religious free system' so long as that system allows them to live their religions?
No, I do take interest. Thanks for the information.
What do you mean by "religious tolerance" exactly?
I know, the United States might as well appoint the pope as their president 
Irrelevant. That's a very complicated and huge discussion anyway.
That depends
Turkey's "division" between church and state is laughable as far as I'm concerned.
As for Arab countries: why can't they have a 'religious free system' so long as that system allows them to live their religions?
No, I do take interest. Thanks for the information.
What do you mean by "religious tolerance" exactly?
bianco neri said:
welcome to america!! where bicameral system is everything you dreamed of
(even though this is a farse)
where bicameral system is everything you dreamed of (even though this is a farse)
Irrelevant. That's a very complicated and huge discussion anyway.
Glad you find it interesting, I am more than happy to answer or discuss it more deeply (and you said I don't care)!!!
The following examples may shed some light on what I meant by tolerance:
Source: http://www.kuftaro.org/english/WOT/Islam_and_Religious_Tolerance.htm
This kind of treatment was basically unheard of in other empires...Or am I mistaken??
)!!!The following examples may shed some light on what I meant by tolerance:
Source: http://www.kuftaro.org/english/WOT/Islam_and_Religious_Tolerance.htm
This kind of treatment was basically unheard of in other empires...Or am I mistaken??
Ok Marty boy, I gave this some thought, I didn't really look it up or ask around I just gave it some thought.
I believe one of the reasons that women are not allowed to marry non-muslims is because it will impede here religious duties.
Men are usually the leaders of any family, will Muslim women be able to wear her hijab, will her husband let her? Will her husband pay for her duty to do Hajj (as it is the husbands duty), I who lives only 80 KM from Makkah, Hajj would cost me around $2500, will a non-muslim indonesian husband support and pay, say $10,000, for his wife? Will the non-muslim husband obstain from having sex with his wife when she is menustrating? Will the husband provide to his family from a "hallal" activity?
Thats what I could come up, perhaps there are other reasons, as I am by no means an Islamic scholar, and I don't believe I have enough knowledge to give this issue what it deserves. However, I promise you that I will seek more into this issue....
I believe one of the reasons that women are not allowed to marry non-muslims is because it will impede here religious duties.
Men are usually the leaders of any family, will Muslim women be able to wear her hijab, will her husband let her? Will her husband pay for her duty to do Hajj (as it is the husbands duty), I who lives only 80 KM from Makkah, Hajj would cost me around $2500, will a non-muslim indonesian husband support and pay, say $10,000, for his wife? Will the non-muslim husband obstain from having sex with his wife when she is menustrating? Will the husband provide to his family from a "hallal" activity?
Thats what I could come up, perhaps there are other reasons, as I am by no means an Islamic scholar, and I don't believe I have enough knowledge to give this issue what it deserves. However, I promise you that I will seek more into this issue....
Martin said:
Rami, don't worry about it. I was just saying it offhand, I wasn't about to have a serious debate on this.
??No seriously, I believe that everything in Islam has a justifacation, some I know and some I don't. Your question never occured to me, and I really got worked up on it, because I wanted to seek information for myself before you...
Anyways
int: (non-alcoholic) for being respectful...and a Linux aficionado
Why would they need this kind of system if they have inhereted a system that would give them a leave for Eids, give them shorter working days in Ramadhan, give them Islamic loans instead of profitable loans in which banks rob people, give them the right to wear Hijabs or vails, give them the right eat Halal and non pork-ified foods, ..etc.
This is why it is so right for Arabic and nations with a majority of Muslims should have an islamic system rather than a religion free system ... Lebanon is an exception as its muslims are not a majority, so it wouldnt be right for Muslims to rule this country, however, in countries such as Syria for example where muslims are a majority, its acceptable to have an islamic system ..
As i said before, Islam gives people of different faiths the right to practice their religions as far their practices do not obstruct with the muslims' rights to practice their religion.
I dont think the world is ready yet to have wide spread nations that dont endource a main religion.. Churches are still going strong and do have the power to control heaps and heaps of people and can alter govermental desisions sometimes... Even the strongest nation on earth, ( with all the diversity God has blessed it with), it still endources the belief in God.. and this applies on other powerful nations, such as China (Budhism, even though Moa was an athiest), Germany, France, England (Christianty)
The only reason i think Europe still hasnt dropped religion totally is because they know religion gives the state its power.. If goverments drop religion totally, they know they'll face fierce opposition and will lose a large proportion of their nations' faithfull... Its that easy.. religion means power.
You might say that France for example has a goverment which has recently adoted laws that prohibit any signs of a religious origin, and many people have chareterised this as a step towards religious freedom!!.. i dont understand how this can be called religous freedom?? same applies on other european nations..
so if these countries think they are right and islamic nations are wrong than why dont they do wht they believe in right, instead of calling for religious freedom??.. Stipping a girl of her Hijab.. bullying muslim students in schools and universities because they have beards.. Prohibiting muslims from practicing their basic religious activities such as praying just because "it contradicts with the nation's policy of religious freedom" !!
This is why it is so right for Arabic and nations with a majority of Muslims should have an islamic system rather than a religion free system ... Lebanon is an exception as its muslims are not a majority, so it wouldnt be right for Muslims to rule this country, however, in countries such as Syria for example where muslims are a majority, its acceptable to have an islamic system ..
As i said before, Islam gives people of different faiths the right to practice their religions as far their practices do not obstruct with the muslims' rights to practice their religion.
I dont think the world is ready yet to have wide spread nations that dont endource a main religion.. Churches are still going strong and do have the power to control heaps and heaps of people and can alter govermental desisions sometimes... Even the strongest nation on earth, ( with all the diversity God has blessed it with), it still endources the belief in God.. and this applies on other powerful nations, such as China (Budhism, even though Moa was an athiest), Germany, France, England (Christianty)
The only reason i think Europe still hasnt dropped religion totally is because they know religion gives the state its power.. If goverments drop religion totally, they know they'll face fierce opposition and will lose a large proportion of their nations' faithfull... Its that easy.. religion means power.
You might say that France for example has a goverment which has recently adoted laws that prohibit any signs of a religious origin, and many people have chareterised this as a step towards religious freedom!!.. i dont understand how this can be called religous freedom?? same applies on other european nations..
so if these countries think they are right and islamic nations are wrong than why dont they do wht they believe in right, instead of calling for religious freedom??.. Stipping a girl of her Hijab.. bullying muslim students in schools and universities because they have beards.. Prohibiting muslims from practicing their basic religious activities such as praying just because "it contradicts with the nation's policy of religious freedom" !!
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