"I support Muslims who love freedom" (8 Viewers)

[Martin]

I know some of those teachers Martin, they really believe they're helping the kids that way, again i reiterate, its not a few sticks on the hand, it doesn't work, the research has shown that, but don't over dramatize it. I grew up studying in schools where they used those kind of methods, and i stay in communication with those same teachers that used to hit me up till now.

They really aren't the evil and angry human beings you picture them to be.

Stockholm syndrome?

No, but speaking seriously, it is child abuse, whether it be really harmful or just mildly. This kind of thing was pretty widespread in Europe too until a few decades ago.

What's more worrying, as Jay said, is what these kids are actually being taught. Being forced to memorize verses from the Koran in a foreign language you don't understand, and that teacher probably doesn't even understand, is worse than useless, it is the appearance of teaching without teaching anything.

 

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[swag]

Stockholm syndrome?

No, but speaking seriously, it is child abuse, whether it be really harmful or just mildly. This kind of thing was pretty widespread in Europe too until a few decades ago.

What's more worrying, as Jay said, is what these kids are actually being taught. Being forced to memorize verses from the Koran in a foreign language you don't understand, and that teacher probably doesn't even understand, is worse than useless, it is the appearance of teaching without teaching anything.

IMO, not that I am for whacking kids (though sometimes, depending on the kid, I am!), but this debate gets into borderline ethnocentrism.

 

[Fred]

Ya, i wasn't really talking about this particular case persay, i was talking about beating kids in education in general. Beating the kids should be the last of your worries in that video though, seriously . The indoctrination and the consequences that will inevitably follow it will probably have a much bigger (negative) impact on the child than the beatings.

Plus like i said, the beating is used everywhere, it isn't used just for teaching the Koran.

 

[Martin]

IMO, not that I am for whacking kids (though sometimes, depending on the kid, I am!), but this debate gets into borderline ethnocentrism.

We don't settle for headlines, give us the whole article.

 

[rounder]

It's not okay to knock a child out with a Mike Tyson punch or a Zidane head butt but it's perfectly fine to try and knock some sense into a misbehaving kid by slapping his wrists with a ruler. It seems more like disciplining children than abusing them. The abuse isn't physical here; it's mental. When you force a child to memorize bits of the Qu'ran forcefully is mental abuse, however, that goes for anything you try to forcefully teach your child for that matter.

If you force a child to memorize his country's national anthem; you are guilty of the same crime. There's sort of a double standard here. If you are against children being forced to do memorize religious language against their will; then surely, you must be against children being forced to do anything against their will.

Forcefully teaching a child table manners, politeness, and how to use the bathroom should all be considered child abuse then. You think a kid really wants learn to wipe his own ass?

 

[Martin]

It's not okay to knock a child out with a Mike Tyson punch or a Zidane head butt but it's perfectly fine to try and knock some sense into a misbehaving kid by slapping his wrists with a ruler. It seems more like disciplining children than abusing them. The abuse isn't physical here; it's mental. When you force a child to memorize bits of the Qu'ran forcefully is mental abuse, however, that goes for anything you try to forcefully teach your child for that matter.

If you force a child to memorize his country's national anthem; you are guilty of the same crime. There's sort of a double standard here. If you are against children being forced to do memorize religious language against their will; then surely, you must be against children being forced to do anything against their will.

Forcefully teaching a child table manners, politeness, and how to use the bathroom should all be considered child abuse then. You think a kid really wants learn to wipe his own ass?

Yeah, those 9 year olds really had it coming. If you can't even memorize mindless blabber in a foreign language that you don't understand, how are you ever going to learn discipline? After all, god is loving and merciful, so he won't beat the love and respect into you, that means someone else has to.

I continue being amazed at the logic, coming from adults, that it's perfectly fine to hit children, but not adults. Because that's against the law, you could end up in jail or a courtroom. So we approve abuse of those who can't defend themselves, that's not gonna backfire on us.


Oh and here's a hot tip: If you can't figure out how to get a child to do something he/she is supposed to do without hitting, then just maybe you shouldn't be a parent. Maybe you shouldn't be a teacher or a babysitter. Maybe you're so clueless that you can't be trusted to take care of children. Maybe you should sit this one out, because your powers of persuasion are so weak that you better stick to following orders, not giving them.

 

[Fred]

You really are over dramatizing it Martin. Do you mean to say that, a simple hit on the palm is child abuse and is going to scar the kid for life? Like Rev said, theres a difference between hitting with a ruler on the palm and punching/kicking/slapping a kid. The latter of which is definitely not acceptable

 

[Martin]

You really are over dramatizing it Martin. Do you mean to say that, a simple hit on the palm is child abuse and is going to scar the kid for life? Like Rev said, theres a difference between hitting with a ruler on the palm and punching/kicking/slapping a kid. The latter of which is definitely not acceptable

So why isn't it acceptable to hit adults on the palm? I mean if it's harmless. Or maybe step on their feet? I dunno, let's find some good ones that we can do. Harmless is harmless, right?

You have a job, right? What would you think about your boss coming by with a ruler and slapping your hand? Not exactly gonna scar you for life, is it?

 

[Fred]

As an adult, i've reached a level of cognitive ability that allows me to be independent and make my own decisions. Not the same with kids.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

Come on now, Fred. Everyone here knows you're a 14- year old kid.

 

[Martin]

As an adult, i've reached a level of cognitive ability that allows me to be independent and make my own decisions. Not the same with kids.

Yeah, so what? Is it harmless or not for adults to hit each other as punishment for bad performance or bad manners?

Are you trying to say that adults are more sensitive than kids? That maybe if they were to be hitting each other, they would somehow get confused thanks to their stupid cognitive skills, and get the wrong idea that violence is good?

Gattuso didn't exactly scar that guy for life, did he?

 

[Fred]

no he didn't.

But like i said, adults are supposed to already have the cognitive ability to be independent and make their own decisions. 13 year olds and 14 year olds still need someone to show them whats right and whats wrong, and sometimes, using physical means like hitting one on his palm can be helpful. You can make the argument that it doesn't work because it gives the wrong incentive to do a certain behaviour, ie the kid would do his homework not because he thinks its in his benefit, but in order to avoid punishment. That i would tend to agree with, what i don't agree with is you going over the top and saying its child abuse.

It's child abuse when used wrongly or excessively, but moderate corporal punishment is not child abuse, whether it works or not, now that is what is up for debate imo.

 

[Martin]

no he didn't.

But like i said, adults are supposed to already have the cognitive ability to be independent and make their own decisions. 13 year olds and 14 year olds still need someone to show them whats right and whats wrong, and sometimes, using physical means like hitting one on his palm can be helpful. You can make the argument that it doesn't work because it gives the wrong incentive to do a certain behaviour, ie the kid would do his homework not because he thinks its in his benefit, but in order to avoid punishment. That i would tend to agree with, what i don't agree with is you going over the top and saying its child abuse.

You're building on an unfounded assumption that a 14 year old doesn't have the "cognitive ability" whereas an 18 year old somehow does. Lots of adults don't have this ability either, and are no more rational than kids. So the distinction is not a convincing one.

It's child abuse when used wrongly or excessively, but moderate corporal punishment is not child abuse, whether it works or not, now that is what is up for debate imo.

Your logic is bizarre. You are arguing about child upbring in terms of what is "not abuse". I say we base our laws on what "doesn't exactly scar you for life", applied to children and adults alike, what do you think of that idea?

 

[Martin]

In fact, what you're arguing, Fred, is that we should punish kids for not having this important cognitive ability. So while they still don't have it, it's okay to hit them here and there, because they won't make the logical connection that violence is a useful thing. Once they become adults, unfortunately they have become too rational, and it would send the wrong message. Oh well, at least we have those 18 years of fun.

 

[Fred]

either my English is not that good, or your reading ability leaves a lot to be desired, whatever it is, i'll just highlight a part of my post above.

no he didn't.

But like i said, adults are supposed to already have the cognitive ability to be independent and make their own decisions. 13 year olds and 14 year olds still need someone to show them whats right and whats wrong, and sometimes, using physical means like hitting one on his palm can be helpful. You can make the argument that it doesn't work because it gives the wrong incentive to do a certain behaviour, ie the kid would do his homework not because he thinks its in his benefit, but in order to avoid punishment. That i would tend to agree with, what i don't agree with is you going over the top and saying its child abuse.

It's child abuse when used wrongly or excessively, but moderate corporal punishment is not child abuse, whether it works or not, now that is what is up for debate imo.

I'm not a fan of corporal punishment, i don't think it works. It is not child abuse however, i went to a school where they used corporal punishment, if used moderately it is not child abuse. Thats all i'm saying, i'm not saying it works.

 

[Fred]

You're building on an unfounded assumption that a 14 year old doesn't have the "cognitive ability" whereas an 18 year old somehow does. Lots of adults don't have this ability either, and are no more rational than kids. So the distinction is not a convincing one.



Your logic is bizarre. You are arguing about child upbring in terms of what is "not abuse". I say we base our laws on what "doesn't exactly scar you for life", applied to children and adults alike, what do you think of that idea?

How is it an unfounded assumption? So many laws are built on that assumption. Why is an 18 year old allowed to have sex with whomever he wants, while a 14 year old is considered a minor?

 

[Martin]

Well then you contradict yourself:

adults are supposed to already have the cognitive ability to be independent and make their own decisions. 13 year olds and 14 year olds still need someone to show them whats right and whats wrong, and sometimes, using physical means like hitting one on his palm can be helpful.

and

I'm not a fan of corporal punishment, i don't think it works.

If it doesn't work, how is it helpful?

 

[Martin]

How is it an unfounded assumption? So many laws are built on that assumption. Why is an 18 year old allowed to have sex with whomever he wants, while a 14 year old is considered a minor?

Yes, but you have this backwards. 18 year olds have more responsibilities, they have more burdens, they are responsible for more things. From these things minors are protected.

Whereas what you are dealing with is that adults are protected against something that minors are not. If you had put it the other way around, I would still have objected, but at least it would be in line with the way that the distinction between minors and adults works.

 

[Fred]

I'm not a fan of corporal punishment. I don't think it should be used in a systematic way, not because its harmful, not because its child abuse, but because it isn't really beneficial in the long term and doesn't provide the right incentives. When you say its child abuse, it implies rather strongly that you think its downright wrong, and should be completely eradicated, i don't agree with that. I think that in some cases it can be helpful.

 

[Fred]

Yes, but you have this backwards. 18 year olds have more responsibilities, they have more burdens, they are responsible for more things. From these things minors are protected.

Whereas what you are dealing with is that adults are protected against something that minors are not. If you had put it the other way around, I would still have objected, but at least it would be in line with the way that the distinction between minors and adults works.

Why do 18 year olds have more responsibilities and burdens? Is it not because they are assumed to have higher cognitive abilities, hgiher independence, etc?