Greek Election (5 Viewers)

[Zacheryah]

In all honesty tho, its not the people's fault

Its the goverments they had.

One could point at tax evasion wich grows wild in greece. But lets be honest, if it was regulated that poorly , it would be the same in any other country.

 

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[Dostoevsky]

Have the countries fallen due to EU or terrible domestic decisions in terms of political and economical reforms?

EU is flawed primarily from a Democratic view point and the Monetary Union lacks coherent fiscal policies, but the Internal Market of EU is a success story. So much that many anti-EU parties want to stay within the Market while leaving the Union.

And why would you want to look towards Russia (solely). Russias Economy is fragile and shitty. Unless you mean China in which case I get it even less.

How is it terrible domestic decisions when those decisions are being pushed by the top elite and countries? It's decisions based by the choice of IMF themselves who gives the credit under certain circumstances. It's not like we're picking austerity measures ourselves but rather being forced to take them, usually cause we got no other choice.

Fragile? Look what Russia did over the past 15 years and look their economy. Some might oppose but numbers are speaking for themselves. They are making a drastic jump in all areas even with the EU sanctions. What's fragile, their currency? They tried to go in the Forex market and see how it ends. It ended badly for them but imo it was a good sign as they are forcing dollars and euros out of their vault. What's wrong with China's economy? They are doing absolutely brilliant so far and BRICS looks like a big and great prospect imo. EU is a false light where only big guys profit.. and at this point it's pretty much only Germany.

 

[Maddy]

How is it terrible domestic decisions when those decisions are being pushed by the top elite and countries? It's decisions based by the choice of IMF themselves who gives the credit under certain circumstances. It's not like we're picking austerity measures ourselves but rather being forced to take them, usually cause we got no other choice.

Fragile? Look what Russia did over the past 15 years and look their economy. Some might oppose but numbers are speaking for themselves. They are making a drastic jump in all areas even with the EU sanctions. What's fragile, their currency? They tried to go in the Forex market and see how it ends. It ended badly for them but imo it was a good sign as they are forcing dollars and euros out of their vault. What's wrong with China's economy? They are doing absolutely brilliant so far and BRICS looks like a big and great prospect imo. EU is a false light where only big guys profit.. and at this point it's pretty much only Germany.

But why did these countries need a loan in the first place? I don't think you can fault IMF for putting up some demands for giving out a loan. You could always discuss if some of the demands are too strict, but what has kept some Southern and Eastern European countries from growth is primarily domestic decisions. The current Austerity beliefs in Germany aren't helping, but they are not the reason for the mess. The mess came before austerity.

I agree that the current neo-liberal policies suck, but it's a matter of political discourse something that can and will be changed.

But even if you took on a more offensive financial policy in EU, it wouldn't matter much without political and economical reforms around Europe.

Russia's economy. Junk status: http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/180571/russian-economy-downgraded-to-junk-status

Russia and China's economical help will be just as expensive as EU's.

 

[Dostoevsky]

But why did these countries need a loan in the first place? I don't think you can fault IMF for putting up some demands for giving out a loan. You could always discuss if some of the demands are too strict, but what has kept some Southern and Eastern European countries from growth is primarily domestic decisions. The current Austerity beliefs in Germany aren't helping, but they are not the reason for the mess. The mess came before austerity.

Because meeting their demands is not possible for any country. It was not possible for Greece as well, yet they joined them.

They are giving a list of demands if you want to join them and there's no way, absolutely no way, that countries could fulfill those without taking loans. Even with loans it takes over 10 years to compete quests that EU gives. It's like now when we were making a bridge in Belgrade. It was a deal with Chinese but their demand was to hire their workers. It's when IMF comes into play to give loans -- and you know how that ends up.

I agree that the current neo-liberal policies suck, but it's a matter of political discourse something that can and will be changed.

But even if you took on a more offensive financial policy in EU, it wouldn't matter much without political and economical reforms around Europe.

Russia's economy. Junk status: http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/180571/russian-economy-downgraded-to-junk-status

Russia and China's economical help will be just as expensive as EU's.

I refuse to shape a picture based only on recent events. What they have been doing over the past 20 years is nothing but impressive.

Here's how Russia looked in 1999:
GDP 195 billions
GPD per capita 1320$
Inflation 36%
Gold 12.6 billion $ worth
National debt 78% GDP
Pension 500 RUB
Income 1500 RUB

And less than year ago the picture looked like this:
GDP 2110 billions
GPD per capita 14800$
Inflation 6.5%
Gold 511 billion $ worth
National debt 8% GDP
Pension 10000 RUB
Income 29000 RUB

Yeah, over the past year it changed a lot due to new geopolitical reasons. But you shouldn't underestimate Russia and their current power. They are making the business with Chinese which are gonna reflect some amazing profits for both sides and they are slowly getting rid of the dollar.

 

[radekas]

 

[Ocelot]

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist

Interesting speech by the new Greek ministre of finance. Wouldn't agree with everything though.

 

[Brandmon]

All aboard the Grexit train.

 

[Fred]

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist

Interesting speech by the new Greek ministre of finance. Wouldn't agree with everything though.

Well at least he's pragmatic. Not always a characteristic you'd find abundant amongst academics

 

[Cronios]

Pragmatic? Hmm I wouldn't say so, but considering the left party standards, I guess he is. He is a hypocrite for sure though!
Greece is well worthy of what's coming to her, they have surrended the country to populism and they are uterly disconnected from reality.
Syriza, the leading political party that forms the gvrmnt now and that gay financial minister himself, have been claiming for years that drachmas would be the best option for Greece.
That was their intention all along, yet they were only trying to find a way to make it happen, they want to hurt Euro and the entire capitalistic system, without caring about collateral damages, i n Greece or abroad.
To win the elections they have claimed right in the last month before the elections, that the austerity measures are not necessary and the ppl have been suffering in vain, they were the only ones with the will and the ability to negotiate, create an alliance with southern Europe and end austerity measures globally!
It was a fools hope and Greeks were never really good at resisting that.
Left parties are dominating Greek universities, public schools and art schools.They have created a generation of Greeks, that have fanatical beliefs in leftish policies, completely unrealistic and Utopian.
The voices of reason are not so driven to impose their rule anymore, for various reasons and the radical leftists took over.
There is only one way for this to change, unquestionable utter failure of their politics.
Radical leftists will only change their minds, only if they experience upon themselves a taste of their policies, they need to learn it the hard way...

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Pragmatic? Hmm I wouldn't say so, but considering the left party standards, I guess he is. He is a hypocrite for sure though!
Greece is well worthy of what's coming to her, they have surrended the country to popularism and they are uterly disconnected from reality.
Syriza, the leading political party that forms the gvrmnt now and that gay financial minister himself, have been claiming for years that drachmas would be the best option for Greece.
That was their intention all along, yet they were only trying to find a way to make it happen, they won't to hurt Euro and the entire capitalistic system, without caring about collateral damages.
To win the election they have claimed right in the last month, that the austerity measures are not necessary and the ppl have been suffering in vain, they were the only ones with the will and the ability to negotiate, create an alliance with southern Europe and end austerity measures globally!
It was a fools hope and Greeks were never really good at resisting that.
Left parties are dominating Greek universities, public schools and art schools.They have created a generation of Greeks, that have fanatical beliefs in leftish policies, completely unrealistic and Utopian.
The voices of reason are not so driven to impose their rule anymore, for various reasons and the radical leftists took over.
There is only one way for this to change, unquestionable utter failure of their politics.
Radical leftists will only change their minds, only if they experience upon themselves a taste of their policies, they need to learn it the hard way...

 

[Lapa]

Greece, Europe's own Motta.

 

[Bjerknes]

Radical leftists will only change their minds, only if they experience upon themselves a taste of their policies, they need to learn it the hard way...

Good luck with that. Radical leftists are deranged lunatics. They are just begging to be slaughtered and actually enjoy it.

Sounds like Greece is similar to the US in that regard.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist

Interesting speech by the new Greek ministre of finance. Wouldn't agree with everything though.

I stopped reading after the first paragraph.

Blaming capitalism for 2008 is like blaming gun manufacturers for the Charleston shooting. Especially for a country like Greece where all their problems stem from government or governing finance bodies of garbage.

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

Pragmatic? Hmm I wouldn't say so, but considering the left party standards, I guess he is. He is a hypocrite for sure though!
Greece is well worthy of what's coming to her, they have surrended the country to populism and they are uterly disconnected from reality.
Syriza, the leading political party that forms the gvrmnt now and that gay financial minister himself, have been claiming for years that drachmas would be the best option for Greece.
That was their intention all along, yet they were only trying to find a way to make it happen, they want to hurt Euro and the entire capitalistic system, without caring about collateral damages, i n Greece or abroad.
To win the elections they have claimed right in the last month before the elections, that the austerity measures are not necessary and the ppl have been suffering in vain, they were the only ones with the will and the ability to negotiate, create an alliance with southern Europe and end austerity measures globally!
It was a fools hope and Greeks were never really good at resisting that.
Left parties are dominating Greek universities, public schools and art schools.They have created a generation of Greeks, that have fanatical beliefs in leftish policies, completely unrealistic and Utopian.
The voices of reason are not so driven to impose their rule anymore, for various reasons and the radical leftists took over.
There is only one way for this to change, unquestionable utter failure of their politics.
Radical leftists will only change their minds, only if they experience upon themselves a taste of their policies, they need to learn it the hard way...

This, they really think that the europe owes them something My father's close friend is living in Greece for 20+ years already, my dad went there on a trip 3 years ago and now all i can hear from him about the situation in greece is - "fucking eu, they robbed greece, they forced them to take loans, they forced them to hold the Olympic Games and take out a loan at high interest, they want to destroy them" blablabla, what they fail to understand or they not willing to understand is this picture:

they already had big debt before, At the end of 2000, just before Greece joined the euro zone, 79% of its outstanding debt was already denominated in euros, and a mere 8% in drachmas, yet they blame the whole world

also this
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

look how much money local banks + public sector loaned out to greece government

 

[Lapa]

It's a wonder how Italy, Spain etc. Mediterranean countries aren't at the same point...none of those fuckers know how to use money. Or how was it again @Klin?

 

[Cronios]

Greece's biggest issue is public labor, incompetency at using her energy sources and lack of productivities.
The sin of every Greek gvrmnt since I was born was that they were promising a place at public labours to promote themselves. Public labours in Greece, work less, are careless of end product as there isn't any kind of pressure on them, because of the overpowered unionists.
They have great insurance coveries and an excellent pension. If one gets a place in state funded position, he has secured his future tell his very last day. These position were reserved for faithful voters and their numbers grew larger with every election. No one cared to reduce their numbers due to political backfire. All the austerity measures aimed at them with extreme pressure dismantled the earlier political parties and the current earned total dominance by promising even more.
Europe justifiably demands to reduce the number of public labours in order to cut costs, but this political party will never betray their hardcore voters, this is a matter of a highest priority for them, but as long the state is so big, that can't support itself, there is no hope of growth and development.
Yesterday this new grmnt demanded new loans so that they can hire even more public labours...
They think that Europe has more money to lose if they lose their loans and will prefer to reduce their loan interest.
They believe that the debt started when Germany robbed Greece's wealth in ww and ever since the debt grows, ignoring that it was nearly payed off, before the turn of the socialists to public labours for votes in the 80s. They claim that the debt was created by a conspiracy of American bankers who wanted to undermine euro's credibility and attacked the weakest link. The huge debt was indeed created by the coordinated attack of American rating houses and was used 80% to bail out Greek banks after the spread banks, underrating and bankrun. They want this part of debt to be erased, just like it happened with Spain.
Putin and Brics offer another attractive alternative for them. They hope that a win of podemos in Spain will turn tables and with their uprise Euros fault will start!
Chances are, that they will not stop...

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Greece's biggest issue is public labor, incompetency at using her energy sources and lack of productivities.
The sin of every Greek gvrmnt since I was born was that they were promising a place at public labours to promote themselves. Public labours in Greece, work less, are careless of end product as there isn't any kind of pressure on them, because of the overpowered unionists.
They have great insurance coveries and an excellent pension. If one gets a place in state funded position, he has secured his future tell his very last day. These position were reserved for faithful voters and their numbers grew larger with every election. No one cared to reduce their numbers due to political backfire. All the austerity measures aimed at them with extreme pressure dismantled the earlier political parties and the current earned total dominance by promising even more.
Europe justifiably demands to reduce the number of public labours in order to cut costs, but this political party will never betray their hardcore voters, this is a matter of a highest priority for them, but as long the state is so big, that can't support itself, there is no hope of growth and development.
Yesterday this new grmnt demanded new loans so that they can hire even more public labours...
They think that Europe has more money to lose if they lose their loans and will prefer to reduce their loan interest.
They believe that the debt started when Germany robbed Greece's wealth in ww and ever since the debt grows, ignoring that it was nearly payed off, before the turn of the socialists to public labours for votes in the 80s. They claim that the debt was created by a conspiracy of American bankers who wanted to undermine euro's credibility and attacked the weakest link. The huge debt was indeed created by the coordinated attack of American rating houses and was used 80% to bail out Greek banks after the spread banks, underrating and bankrun. They want this part of debt to be erased, just like it happened with Spain.
Putin and Brics offer another attractive alternative for them. They hope that a win of podemos in Spain will turn tables and with their uprise Euros fault will start!
Chances are, that they will not stop...

thats why you need capitalism

 

[Cronios]

Yeah, I know, but very few Ppl agree.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Germany loves the fact that Greece is in the EU as they 'destroy' the currency, so Germans companies benefit highly when it comes to exports.

 

[lgorTudor]

Germany loves the fact that Greece is in the EU

9/10 Germans disagree They hate the damn thing. They feel robbed.

 

[Dostoevsky]

9/10 Germans disagree They hate the damn thing. They feel robbed.

I don't think any big corporation would disagree. Wages did stagnate quite a bit but the growth since early 90s is huge imo.