Global Financial Crisis (8 Viewers)

[Maddy]

The only positive thing in the whole EU is only Germany who are doing absolutely amazing, but they are not crazy enough to work for everybody else, so I agree with their refusal of the bond based on all of the countries. If they can pay their 0.5-1% interest, why the hell should they agree to pay 5 with the new bond? It's just silly, and it sure does look like a Titanic because most of the countries are doing rather bad. One thing that I don't get is small countries trying to get in the EU at this point (yes, my country too), it's a disastrous move and I can't believe people think it's gonna save them.

Your statement about Germany being the only positive thing in EU is just wrong and I think you know better (Finland, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden).

And to why smaller economies wanna join EU. It's very simple: Joining the inner market. It might look a bit absurd under this current 'crisis' especially if you decide to join the monetary union.

 

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[Nzoric]

how is the danish situation positive? sure, it's far from the greek scenario, but positive?

 

[Maddy]

One of the biggest flaws since the EU was created is that you don't get coordinated fiscal policy but only monetary. It's never gonna work this way and the whole thing was wrong ever since it was created and it has to fall apart eventually.

Are you talking about EU or the Euro? Because the EU is much more than a Monetary Union.

---------- Post added 17.08.2012 at 16:13 ----------

how is the danish situation positive? sure, it's far from the greek scenario, but positive?

Denmark has a healthy economy. Very simple.

 

[Brandmon]

Brandmon is right. Greece should default and return to the drachma eventhough it's gonna hurt them a lot. But actually, even before they were suggested to make reforms, they were doing horrible. Greece has been in deep debts like forever which points to another thing - how they got in the EU is beyond me, it was such a farce is laughable as they didn't have anything positive to get in, which only points out the political move of the whole Eurozone bull$#@!. Same goes for Italy really, they might have stronger economy, but they won't be able to handle their debt. The only positive thing in the whole EU is only Germany who are doing absolutely amazing, but they are not crazy enough to work for everybody else, so I agree with their refusal of the bond based on all of the countries. If they can pay their 0.5-1% interest, why the hell should they agree to pay 5 with the new bond? It's just silly, and it sure does look like a Titanic because most of the countries are doing rather bad. One thing that I don't get is small countries trying to get in the EU at this point (yes, my country too), it's a disastrous move and I can't believe people think it's gonna save them.

First the EU =/= Eurozone. While linked, both institutions are completely separate. Even if Greece leaves the Eurozone, it will still remain in the EU. Secondly debt-sharing should have been realised in some form or another from the onset of the Eurozone. Maybe if Germany started caring about Greece's debt from the start, they would have put into place the necessaries measures to make sure they don't go overboard with their debt and forced them from as early as 2000 to reduce their debt levels if they are to be part of the Euro, rather than turning a blind eye and now having to pay it off itself anyway. Third, Germany being the only positive? Really? What about Finland, Slovakia and Austria which are growing faster than Germany itself, averaging about 3% GDP growth? While being in the Eurozone nonetheless. Then you have the UK outside the Eurozone struggling at 1% growth. This frankly shows that it is national governments who are responsible for the economic health of their respective countries, not the EU. European economies have shown to be able to either succeed or fail with or without the Eurozone or with or without the EU.

 

[Maddy]

First the EU =/= Eurozone. While linked, both institutions are completely separate. Even if Greece leaves the Eurozone, it will still remain in the EU. Secondly debt-sharing should have been realised in some form or another from the onset of the Eurozone. Maybe if Germany started caring about Greece's debt from the start, they would have put into place the necessaries measures to make sure they don't go overboard with their debt and forced them from as early as 2000 to reduce their debt levels if they are to be part of the Euro, rather than turning a blind eye and now having to pay it off itself anyway. Third, Germany being the only positive? Really? What about Finland, Slovakia and Austria which are growing faster than Germany itself, averaging about 3% GDP growth? While being in the Eurozone nonetheless. Then you have the UK outside the Eurozone struggling at 1% growth. This frankly shows that it is national governments who are responsible for the economic health of their respective countries, not the EU. European economies have shown to be able to either succeed or fail with or without the Eurozone or with or without the EU.

Well put.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Your statement about Germany being the only positive thing in EU is just wrong and I think you know better (Finland, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden).

And to why smaller economies wanna join EU. It's very simple: Joining the inner market. It might look a bit absurd under this current 'crisis' especially if you decide to join the monetary union.

Nah, I didn't literally mean the only positive thing. But the big ones that actually change something and those you mentioned can't do much on their own. There are more negative than positive things within the Eurozone. They all say France is great, but I don't think so.

The inner market at this point is pointless. Deregulation and liberalization has destroyed small countries.

 

[Nzoric]

Denmark has a healthy economy. Very simple.

Hardly, we face an immense problem in the later part of the upcoming decade. The problem is pretty simple: how do we keep the 2.8 million workers (numbers from 2009) occupied and in work? Oh and the rosy view on the danish economy today is mostly BS. Unemployment is actually becoming a problem as of late, resulting in people - generally from the public sector - wearing themselves out, out of fear of losing their jobs.

My mother works in the communal system, elderly care. 3 years ago they were 17 people on which the work load of that particular branch was dispersed, now they're 4 with the same workload.

 

[Maddy]

Nah, I didn't literally mean the only positive thing. But the big ones that actually change something and those you mentioned can't do much on their own. There are more negative than positive things within the Eurozone. They all say France is great, but I don't think so.

The inner market at this point is pointless. Deregulation and liberalization has destroyed small countries.

Which countries has been destroyed?

And again you don't seem to differentiate between EU and the Eurozone.

I've never heard anyone saying France is great. France has some major concerns. Like most other European countries they have been to slow to implement reforms. But like I posted earlier in this thread. The Eurozones debt is smaller than both UK and USA (GDP-ratio) - which is a clear indication that all isn't over for the Eurozone. (Greece is lost tho)

---------- Post added 17.08.2012 at 16:24 ----------

Hardly, we face an immense problem in the later part of the upcoming decade. The problem is pretty simple: how do we keep the 2.8 million workers (numbers from 2009) occupied and in work? Oh and the rosy view on the danish economy today is mostly BS. Unemployment is actually becoming a problem as of late, resulting in people - generally from the public sector - wearing themselves out, out of fear of losing their jobs.

My mother works in the communal system, elderly care. 3 years ago they were 17 people on which the work load of that particular branch was dispersed, now they're 4 with the same workload.

So OECD, IMF and ect. reports on danish economy is bullshit. You really are a marxist, aye?

 

[Dostoevsky]

Secondly debt-sharing should have been realised in some form or another from the onset of the Eurozone. Maybe if Germany started caring about Greece's debt from the start, they would have put into place the necessaries measures to make sure they don't go overboard with their debt and forced them from as early as 2000 to reduce their debt levels if they are to be part of the Euro, rather than turning a blind eye and now having to pay it off itself anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's why I firstly think it was retarded to let Greece in the EU despite of their bad state but it was a huge mistake to let their debt go up to the level where it's too big to handle. The whole system is to blame, not only Germany, though.

Third, Germany being the only positive? Really? What about Finland, Slovakia and Austria which are growing faster than Germany itself, averaging about 3% GDP growth? While being in the Eurozone nonetheless. Then you have the UK outside the Eurozone struggling at 1% growth. This frankly shows that it is national governments who are responsible for the economic health of their respective countries, not the EU. European economies have shown to be able to either succeed or fail with or without the Eurozone or with or without the EU.

I'm not gonna deny their growth but it can't be compared to Germany, who are the top and can't make growths on such levels as those smaller countries. They also have the biggest gold reserves which is rather important. If, lets say whole EU sinks down, it's gonna be Germany to stay up on the top.

Anyway, I agree with the most of the things you say. But I just think the EU has more flaws and it's only only government to be blamed.

---------- Post added 17.08.2012 at 16:29 ----------

Which countries has been destroyed?

And again you don't seem to differentiate between EU and the Eurozone.

I've never heard anyone saying France is great. France has some major concerns. Like most other European countries they have been to slow to implement reforms. But like I posted earlier in this thread. The Eurozones debt is smaller than both UK and USA (GDP-ratio) - which is a clear indication that all isn't over for the Eurozone. (Greece is lost tho)

Romania for example.

Well I did. Whenever I hear something it's all about Germany (I can see why) and France. When when they said the EU might be reformed and made out of two circle where in the first we'd only get to see France and Germany, which was kinda funny. Might be BS, but I kept reading crap like that.

Hey, I never said the US looks better. I actually think they are much worse than the EU.

 

[Maddy]

Yes, I agree. It's why I firstly think it was retarded to let Greece in the EU despite of their bad state but it was a huge mistake to let their debt go up to the level where it's too big to handle. The whole system is to blame, not only Germany, though.

You mean letting them in the Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union, right?

 

[Nzoric]

Which countries has been destroyed?

And again you don't seem to differentiate between EU and the Eurozone.

I've never heard anyone saying France is great. France has some major concerns. Like most other European countries they have been to slow to implement reforms. But like I posted earlier in this thread. The Eurozones debt is smaller than both UK and USA (GDP-ratio) - which is a clear indication that all isn't over for the Eurozone. (Greece is lost tho)

---------- Post added 17.08.2012 at 16:24 ----------



So OECD, IMF and ect. reports on danish economy is bullshit. You really are a marxist, aye?

I am, the best thing to happen in danish politics during the last 20 years was that Finn Sørensen got into the parliament ( )

If you read my post I have concerns about the future, and pointing to some very real problems today. Nowhere did I say it was shit, but it's definitely not healthy.

 

[Maddy]

I am, the best thing to happen in danish politics during the last 20 years was that Finn Sørensen got into the parliament ( )

If you read my post I have concerns about the future, and pointing to some very real problems today. Nowhere did I say it was shit, but it's definitely not healthy.

It is healthy - not matter what you say. Unemployment isn't a huge problem. It's relatively low except for the youth.

 

[Nzoric]

It's not, and you can keep dodging my point regarding the future.

 

[Maddy]

It's not, and you can keep dodging my point regarding the future.

I'm not dodging anything. Danish economy is healthy - but not without problems. There's a lack of growth due to the crisis in Europe and the real estate market dying out. Look here: http://www.oecd.org/eco/economicsurveyofdenmark2012.htm

I've already adressed your concern with unemployment. What else do you see me dodge?

 

[Dostoevsky]

You mean letting them in the Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union, right?

Yes.

They didn't fulfill the standards like other countries did, they were rather let in with an closed eye. They looked bad and nobody cared, yet they joined the EU. They kinda squeezed their figures just to enter it. Their inflation was way higher than the average of the EU at the time, which was not supposed to be ignored but yet it it.

However, when they joined all the money they got was invested wrongly too.

 

[Nzoric]

I'm not dodging anything. Danish economy is healthy - but not without problems. There's a lack of growth due to the crisis in Europe and the real estate market dying out. Look here: http://www.oecd.org/eco/economicsurveyofdenmark2012.htm

I've already adressed your concern with unemployment. What else do you see me dodge?

you said it yourself. unemployment is slowly becoming a problem for the youth. in the future we can't compete solely with our educated work force, there's just not that kind of need for specialized labor anywhere. What is the scenario in the future when every factory is shut down because of inflated wages? I'm just saying that it's not a feasible model for the future, that's all.

Don't get me the wrong way, i'm not trying to say that we should go back to the days of industrialization, i'm not floating that high from the ground - i don't have a fix for it. What I see is just not going to last, that's all i'm trying to say.

 

[Brandmon]

It's not, and you can keep dodging my point regarding the future.

Looking at the statistics, 6% is relatively low and just above optimal levels. US and US unemployment is at 8%. French and Italian at 10%. Portuguese and Irish at about 15%. Greek and Serb unemployment at about 22%. So I would say Danish unemployment is certainly not unhealthy. Could be much, much worse.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Looking at the statistics, 6% is relatively low and just above optimal levels. US and US unemployment is at 8%. French and Italian at 10%. Portuguese and Irish at about 15%. Greek and Serb unemployment at about 22%. So I would say Danish unemployment is certainly not unhealthy. Could be much, much worse.

Spain is the worst, no? I think it was around 25% a couple of months ago.

And yeah, the situation here is horrible. But I cannot deny the horrible government we have. Youth unemployment rate is ~40% IIRC.

 

[Maddy]

you said it yourself. unemployment is slowly becoming a problem for the youth. in the future we can't compete solely with our educated work force, there's just not that kind of need for specialized labor anywhere. What is the scenario in the future when every factory is shut down because of inflated wages? I'm just saying that it's not a feasible model for the future, that's all.

That's another concern and I share it with you. What are Denmark (Europe) going to live of in the future. Are we to compete with China? What about Green-tech? Can we compete we the Koreans in terms Education and so on.

Sadly I need to go, so I can't deliver the answer right now. I'll get back when I've found a solution

 

[Brandmon]

Spain is the worst, no? I think it was around 25% a couple of months ago.

And yeah, the situation here is horrible. But I cannot deny the horrible government we have. Youth unemployment rate is ~40% IIRC.

Yeah, Spain is in deep shit in that regard and the main problem to be tackled there.