Giuseppe Marotta (93 Viewers)

[Hist]

They give young players room not only now, they already did it before.
Alaba, muller, schwensteiger, kross, etc.

And i still remember allegri chose pepe or matri instead of coman.

We did too. Chiellini and Marchisio have been with us since forever. Asamoah was a young buy too.

Those we didnt give much time like Giovinco, Marrone and De Ceglie turned out not to be good players so they were benched for a reason. Its not like Conte or Allegri have had a history of suppressing young talents and not giving them time. Even at Allegri's Milan Di Sciglio got time and EL shaarawy got plenty of time. Pato played whenever he was fit.

If Kroos, Alaba and he likes were youngsters here today they'd probably get plenty of time. Today we are giving Pogba, morata and Dybala plenty of time because they obviously have the talent to keep a first 11 position. There is no reason to suppose that if Conte or Allegri had them as youngsters they'd have not gotten game time. The coaching staff would have seen their quality and potential the same way Conte saw Pogba's and Allegri saw Dybala's and Morata's. Even Rugani is getting game time now when the first team players are injured or exhausted. Bayern didn't put perfectly reliable players like Bonnucci or Barzagli are on the bench in important matches to play Kroos.

Coman is the only player that I can think of that we did not give time when we should have and as I explained earlier, that has more to do with the formations we use than anything else. We valued him enough to let him go for a staggering fee for an 18 year old. Pepe barely got any minutes under allegri. Matri is a striker, coman is not

 

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[LiquidPLP]

Coman has it easier there becuase Buli is an open-play league. In Serie A he struggled because here small teams park a bus. It's much more difficult to play when the other team doesn't want to. He goes against a defender and even if he beats him, he'll be taken down by another one like Tevez said.
Like Hist said we don't play with wingers so that made it even more complicated.

Overall we should have no regrets over Coman. He wanted to go so there was no point in keeping him against his will. We got him for free and will get 28m out of his sale. Whether it's a lot or not it depends on a specific point of view but I think all parties benefited from the deal.

 

[baggio]

I disagree with the part where we sell those who want to leave. We should sell when it suits us, not the other way around. The whole idea behind having a player on a contract is, that a team gets more control over the transfer variables. From whatever we did in the transfer market last season, player will caused us to lose money where we could've otherwise gained some or as in Coman's case, had an even bigger profit. That said, player will is an important aspect of transfer business these days, but i certainly don't think it negates the club's leverage in such a scenario.

 

[JuveID]

We did too. Chiellini and Marchisio have been with us since forever. Asamoah was a young buy too.

Those we didnt give much time like Giovinco, Marrone and De Ceglie turned out not to be good players so they were benched for a reason. Its not like Conte or Allegri have had a history of suppressing young talents and not giving them time. Even at Allegri's Milan Di Sciglio got time and EL shaarawy got plenty of time. Pato played whenever he was fit.

If Kroos, Alaba and he likes were youngsters here today they'd probably get plenty of time. Today we are giving Pogba, morata and Dybala plenty of time because they obviously have the talent to keep a first 11 position. There is no reason to suppose that if Conte or Allegri had them as youngsters they'd have not gotten game time. The coaching staff would have seen their quality and potential the same way Conte saw Pogba's and Allegri saw Dybala's and Morata's. Even Rugani is getting game time now when the first team players are injured or exhausted. Bayern didn't put perfectly reliable players like Bonnucci or Barzagli are on the bench in important matches to play Kroos.

Coman is the only player that I can think of that we did not give time when we should have and as I explained earlier, that has more to do with the formations we use than anything else. We valued him enough to let him go for a staggering fee for an 18 year old. Pepe barely got any minutes under allegri. Matri is a striker, coman is not

Chiellini and marchisio got time and place because of calciopoli.

Coman is not striker but he can play as an ss with morata as CF.
But allegri chose to play matri morata duo instead coman and morata duo
Allegri subbed in pepe instead of coman against sassuolo, parma.

Why did allegri do that?

Dybala get a time because we simply give him space and time. He is only one SS we have.

If we still had tevez, i could see dybala would not have enough space and time to grow.
And in order to give rugani playing time, we need caceres being injured.

 

[LiquidPLP]

I disagree with the part where we sell those who want to leave. We should sell when it suits us, not the other way around. The whole idea behind having a player on a contract is, that a team gets more control over the transfer variables. From whatever we did in the transfer market last season, player will caused us to lose money where we could've otherwise gained some or as in Coman's case, had an even bigger profit. That said, player will is an important aspect of transfer business these days, but i certainly don't think it negates the club's leverage in such a scenario.

Yes I agree but Coman was riding the bench and that's it. He wouldn't play ahead of Dybala, Mandzukic and Morata anyway. Allegri didn't really try him as AM, that could be his spot but somehow it didn't pan out for the kid here so he requested a transfer. No big deal for me.

If it was Pogba then yeah, you're right.

 

[Oggy]

If Coman stayed he would turn to another Giovinco who also wasn't SS, at least not in my opinion. It is sad we had to sell him, but we just didn't have position for him, and he fits perfectly at Bayern, especially because Ribery, Goetze and Robben are often unavailable.

 

[Hust]

If Coman stayed he would turn to another Giovinco who also wasn't SS, at least not in my opinion. It is sad we had to sell him, but we just didn't have position for him, and he fits perfectly at Bayern, especially because Ribery, Goetze and Robben are often unavailable.

Can't dumb it down anymore than that for people that can't seem to wrap their head around it.

Well said.

 

[KB824]

Can't dumb it down anymore than that for people that can't seem to wrap their head around it.

Well said.

Here is what I can "Wrap my head around"


#1) He was an 18 year old kid, that Juve thought enough of to poach from PSG whilst Conte was still the coach. In essence, angering PSG by taking one of their prodigious talents right from under their noses, and doing this even though Conte was balls deep in a 3-5-2 formation that he had been using for 3 years. Yet they still signed him

#2) There were moments where he struggled, as ANY 18 year old kid not named Messi or Ronaldo is going to do when trying to adapt to a whole new league.

#3) There were also moments of brilliance by him as well. Moments that you, Andy, Dru , and I talked about frequently

#4) This club capitulated to the demands of a 19 year old kid who was still under contract, because he "wanted to leave" Well, that's life. It's not meant to be easy. If that were the case, then no one would be poor, or sick. Life sucks, tell the kid to get over it

#5) They then go and sell him to one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world. Mind you, this is the same kid that was the 24th player out of 25 on last year's Juve squad. Yet Bayern Munich, whose track record far outshines ours in regards to player development, decide that they see enough in this young man to make an investment in him. A deal, that mind you, is a no lose situation for them, and here is why.

#6) 28 Million euro, with 21 million of it coming in the summer of 2017 is NOT the same as 28 million euro in the summer of 2015. IF Juve were to get that money upfront for him, then I would have had far less issues with this deal, considering that Juve could have very well taken that entire sum and gotten Allegri the AM that he WANTED and DESERVED. instead, they got 5 million upfront. Hi, Hernanes. Welcome aboard.

#7) If Coman continues on the progression that he is on right now, then Bayern Munich will be counting down the minutes until they can make the purchase option official, because a 21 year old Coman playing for Bayern Munich with 2 full seasons playing domestically and the CL for a huge club will not only be worth far more than the 21 million they are going to pay, but far more than the 28 million paid out over three transfer summers. Do you think that Juve could get a player comparable to what Coman could very well be in 2 years time, considering age, experience, and accomplishments? Again, 21 million in the summer of 2017 is worth far less than 28 million upfront.




What I find interesting is that you, and you know this, have been by my side and Andy's side for the last 6 years screaming about having a much more youthful Juve squad, yet you have no problem with them willingly letting go of one of their prized young assets, because "he doesn't fit?"

Talent is talent, regardless if he currently fits the formation.


And whomever are making these Giovinco comparisons need to absolutely stop this insanity. Giovinco was not a regular rotation player for one of the largest clubs in the world on a domestic and European level, was not already capped by his national squad, and was never at or near the top of numerous top players under 20 lists when he was 19 years old.

 

[swag]

And whomever are making these Giovinco comparisons need to absolutely stop this insanity. Giovinco was not a regular rotation player for one of the largest clubs in the world on a domestic and European level, was not already capped by his national squad, and was never at or near the top of numerous top players under 20 lists when he was 19 years old.

But yet Coman was none of those things until after he left the club.

 

[KB824]

But yet Coman was none of those things until after he left the club.

But yet Giovinco was not good enough to even have that opportunity at the age of 19.


My point is, talent is talent. And apparently Bayern Munich can see it, while we could not, and he was right under our noses.

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Again, the disturbing part is why no on even questioned why a club like Bayern would want our 24th man on a 25 man squad, when he didn't play all that much for us last year.

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And my tune would be totally different if Juve received that 28 million upfront. Instead, we allowed Bayern, a team whose resources are greater than ours, to have a "Try before you buy" opportunity with one of our young talents.

 

[Cerval]

Letting players go if they want out is not a good idea, especially for youngsters. Most of them don't know what's the best for them (Coman is an exception in this case).

As long as the club wants to keep the players, they have to respect the contract they signed, full stop.

 

[duranfj]

Here is what I can "Wrap my head around"


#1) He was an 18 year old kid, that Juve thought enough of to poach from PSG whilst Conte was still the coach. In essence, angering PSG by taking one of their prodigious talents right from under their noses, and doing this even though Conte was balls deep in a 3-5-2 formation that he had been using for 3 years. Yet they still signed him

#2) There were moments where he struggled, as ANY 18 year old kid not named Messi or Ronaldo is going to do when trying to adapt to a whole new league.

#3) There were also moments of brilliance by him as well. Moments that you, Andy, Dru , and I talked about frequently

#4) This club capitulated to the demands of a 19 year old kid who was still under contract, because he "wanted to leave" Well, that's life. It's not meant to be easy. If that were the case, then no one would be poor, or sick. Life sucks, tell the kid to get over it

#5) They then go and sell him to one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world. Mind you, this is the same kid that was the 24th player out of 25 on last year's Juve squad. Yet Bayern Munich, whose track record far outshines ours in regards to player development, decide that they see enough in this young man to make an investment in him. A deal, that mind you, is a no lose situation for them, and here is why.

#6) 28 Million euro, with 21 million of it coming in the summer of 2017 is NOT the same as 28 million euro in the summer of 2015. IF Juve were to get that money upfront for him, then I would have had far less issues with this deal, considering that Juve could have very well taken that entire sum and gotten Allegri the AM that he WANTED and DESERVED. instead, they got 5 million upfront. Hi, Hernanes. Welcome aboard.

#7) If Coman continues on the progression that he is on right now, then Bayern Munich will be counting down the minutes until they can make the purchase option official, because a 21 year old Coman playing for Bayern Munich with 2 full seasons playing domestically and the CL for a huge club will not only be worth far more than the 21 million they are going to pay, but far more than the 28 million paid out over three transfer summers. Do you think that Juve could get a player comparable to what Coman could very well be in 2 years time, considering age, experience, and accomplishments? Again, 21 million in the summer of 2017 is worth far less than 28 million upfront.




What I find interesting is that you, and you know this, have been by my side and Andy's side for the last 6 years screaming about having a much more youthful Juve squad, yet you have no problem with them willingly letting go of one of their prized young assets, because "he doesn't fit?"

Talent is talent, regardless if he currently fits the formation.


And whomever are making these Giovinco comparisons need to absolutely stop this insanity. Giovinco was not a regular rotation player for one of the largest clubs in the world on a domestic and European level, was not already capped by his national squad, and was never at or near the top of numerous top players under 20 lists when he was 19 years old.

What an amazing post did you write down!!!! I use to hate long post but you sr., you sr. Just nailed It

+rep

 

[Cheesio]

100%

 

[KB824]

What an amazing post did you write down!!!! I use to hate long post but you sr., you sr. Just nailed It

+rep

And the thing is, I am normally very supportive of what Marotta and Paratici have done in the last 6 years.

I love the fact that they are trying, every year, to make this a younger and more dynamic squad.

And then this club goes and does this, which flies in the face of what they have stated their policy was going to be in creating the next generation of Juve. It didn't make sense to me back then, and it still doesn't now.

 

[baggio]

Here is what I can "Wrap my head around"


#1) He was an 18 year old kid, that Juve thought enough of to poach from PSG whilst Conte was still the coach. In essence, angering PSG by taking one of their prodigious talents right from under their noses, and doing this even though Conte was balls deep in a 3-5-2 formation that he had been using for 3 years. Yet they still signed him

#2) There were moments where he struggled, as ANY 18 year old kid not named Messi or Ronaldo is going to do when trying to adapt to a whole new league.

#3) There were also moments of brilliance by him as well. Moments that you, Andy, Dru , and I talked about frequently

#4) This club capitulated to the demands of a 19 year old kid who was still under contract, because he "wanted to leave" Well, that's life. It's not meant to be easy. If that were the case, then no one would be poor, or sick. Life sucks, tell the kid to get over it

#5) They then go and sell him to one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world. Mind you, this is the same kid that was the 24th player out of 25 on last year's Juve squad. Yet Bayern Munich, whose track record far outshines ours in regards to player development, decide that they see enough in this young man to make an investment in him. A deal, that mind you, is a no lose situation for them, and here is why.

#6) 28 Million euro, with 21 million of it coming in the summer of 2017 is NOT the same as 28 million euro in the summer of 2015. IF Juve were to get that money upfront for him, then I would have had far less issues with this deal, considering that Juve could have very well taken that entire sum and gotten Allegri the AM that he WANTED and DESERVED. instead, they got 5 million upfront. Hi, Hernanes. Welcome aboard.

#7) If Coman continues on the progression that he is on right now, then Bayern Munich will be counting down the minutes until they can make the purchase option official, because a 21 year old Coman playing for Bayern Munich with 2 full seasons playing domestically and the CL for a huge club will not only be worth far more than the 21 million they are going to pay, but far more than the 28 million paid out over three transfer summers. Do you think that Juve could get a player comparable to what Coman could very well be in 2 years time, considering age, experience, and accomplishments? Again, 21 million in the summer of 2017 is worth far less than 28 million upfront.




What I find interesting is that you, and you know this, have been by my side and Andy's side for the last 6 years screaming about having a much more youthful Juve squad, yet you have no problem with them willingly letting go of one of their prized young assets, because "he doesn't fit?"

Talent is talent, regardless if he currently fits the formation.


And whomever are making these Giovinco comparisons need to absolutely stop this insanity. Giovinco was not a regular rotation player for one of the largest clubs in the world on a domestic and European level, was not already capped by his national squad, and was never at or near the top of numerous top players under 20 lists when he was 19 years old.

Yea, I find it almost hypocritical when Beppe and co can do no wrong, no matter what topic we are on. This was a transition year, and I think the way we replaced the outgoing players, a lot of the people here would've settled for a top 3 finish, and perhaps, didn't expect us to have the run we have had. I don't get how, everything the club does is right. Yes, in the overall scheme of things, we are functioning within the right realm, but to to agree with situations like the Coman deal, pretty silly.

Lovely post Serge. Encapsulates the entire argument flawlessly.

 

[KB824]

Yea, I find it almost hypocritical when Beppe and co can do no wrong, no matter what topic we are on. This was a transition year, and I think the way we replaced the outgoing players, a lot of the people here would've settled for a top 3 finish, and perhaps, didn't expect us to have the run we have had. I don't get how, everything the club does is right. Yes, in the overall scheme of things, we are functioning within the right realm, but to to agree with situations like the Coman deal, pretty silly.

Lovely post Serge. Encapsulates the entire argument flawlessly.

Thank you.

 

[duranfj]

And the thing is, I am normally very supportive of what Marotta and Paratici have done in the last 6 years.

I love the fact that they are trying, every year, to make this a younger and more dynamic squad.

And then this club goes and does this, which flies in the face of what they have stated their policy was going to be in creating the next generation of Juve. It didn't make sense to me back then, and it still doesn't now.

I have a theory but It doesn't have any support. After two first game of the season, Max were using Coman as an Starter SS and that would send Zaza as our fifth striker and It wouldn't make any sense his purchase. But as I said, just my personal and own theory

Back to your point, Beppe and co are doing an amazing job and they almost always get It right cuz we need to understand that decisión process in football is really hard. You always overexpose and mistakes are open to everyone. They clearly did wrong with Coman and I'm positive they'll never do that kind of mistake: give away a youngster potential Top player in a two year loan with an option to buy.

 

[Hust]

@King of Kings

Yes, I've been gung-ho for youth for as long as I've been on this forum. But with the current coach and formation philosophy it just wasn't meant to be. I'm more upset at losing Vidal then Coman as one was harder to replace than the other.

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A different coach with a different plan then sure, maybe selling Coman in a formation that suited him would have been a mistake. So I guess the coach and his plans are irrelevant? We aren't Milan, we don't force "exciting" players on the coach and force him to find a way to make it work. That would have been a lack of trust in the coach. If anything, the board is responsible for not getting the TQ he wanted. Coman was neither that nor the right person for the two formations we use.

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When an employee asks to leave why force them to stay? It's better for everyone to part ways. Both wanted to leave. We are a big enough club that if someone wants something bigger then only 3-4 clubs stand in our way.

 

[KB824]

@King of Kings

Yes, I've been gung-ho for youth for as long as I've been on this forum. But with the current coach and formation philosophy it just wasn't meant to be. I'm more upset at losing Vidal then Coman as one was harder to replace than the other.

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A different coach with a different plan then sure, maybe selling Coman in a formation that suited him would have been a mistake. So I guess the coach and his plans are irrelevant? We aren't Milan, we don't force "exciting" players on the coach and force him to find a way to make it work. That would have been a lack of trust in the coach. If anything, the board is responsible for not getting the TQ he wanted. Coman was neither that nor the right person for the two formations we use.

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When an employee asks to leave why force them to stay? It's better for everyone to part ways. Both wanted to leave. We are a big enough club that if someone wants something bigger then only 3-4 clubs stand in our way.

So in theory, then why even bother for Berardi?

He doesn't fit the coach's formations either.

 

[Hust]

So in theory, then why even bother for Berardi?

He doesn't fit the coach's formations either.

exactly. It's a conflict isn't it? Get a coach then that is willing to bend to the boards wishes or accept the coach you have now that's doing so well and get him the players he asks for? I've been trying to find a way to get berardi into one of our formations so unless he is willing to play in something he isn't accustomed to then we have a issue. Coman seemed to think he wasn't willing to do that and wanted to play for a club that suited his abilities.