Giuseppe Marotta (79 Viewers)

[KB824]

exactly. It's a conflict isn't it? Get a coach then that is willing to bend to the boards wishes or accept the coach you have now that's doing so well and get him the players he asks for? I've been trying to find a way to get berardi into one of our formations so unless he is willing to play in something he isn't accustomed to then we have a issue. Coman seemed to think he wasn't willing to do that and wanted to play for a club that suited his abilities.

But my point is, a lot of the same people who are going up and down stating that Coman didn't fit, are the same ones who are stating that Berardi should still be purchased even though he doesn't fit the coach's formations, and let the coaching staff "Figure it out".

Do you see the hypocrisy here?

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Hust]

But my point is, a lot of the same people who are going up and down stating that Coman didn't fit, are the same ones who are stating that Berardi should still be purchased even though he doesn't fit the coach's formations, and let the coaching staff "Figure it out".

Do you see the hypocrisy here?

is it hypocrisy when one freely admits that it's almost impossible to find a solution to berardi? You can still want him but if you can't stare directly at the issue of having him and getting him to fit then how is it hypocritical?

Wanting is fantasy but the reality needs to set in: either Allegri is willing to change formation or we move on. UNLESS berardi is willing to play and learn a new position in attack. I've been diehard for a 433 but does it make me hypocritical to still want players I know we might have an issue getting the most out of? If anything, it's selfish.

 

[KB824]

is it hypocrisy when one freely admits that it's almost impossible to find a solution to berardi? You can still want him but if you can't stare directly at the issue of having him and getting him to fit then how is it hypocritical?

Wanting is fantasy but the reality needs to set in: either Allegri is willing to change formation or we move on. UNLESS berardi is willing to play and learn a new position in attack. I've been diehard for a 433 but does it make me hypocritical to still want players I know we might have an issue getting the most out of? If anything, it's selfish.

First, I'm not saying you in particular. IN general, the consensus on this board is "position be damned, get Berardi, because he can play behind the strikers or as a SS".

Problem with that is that no one has actually seen him do it. What we have seen in the past 3 years is that far and away his best position is in a 4-3-3.

The issue with Coman is that no one really knows what position he could play in. But again, he was just 18 at the time last year.

 

[zizinho]

First, I'm not saying you in particular. IN general, the consensus on this board is "position be damned, get Berardi, because he can play behind the strikers or as a SS".

Problem with that is that no one has actually seen him do it. What we have seen in the past 3 years is that far and away his best position is in a 4-3-3.

The issue with Coman is that no one really knows what position he could play in. But again, he was just 18 at the time last year.

but we have

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359263
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359272
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359283
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359286
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359324
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359434
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359416

 

[KB824]

but we have

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359263
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359272
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359283
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359286
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359324
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359434
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2359416

Over two years ago.

 

[Osman]

Agree with most you said Serge, but anyone with set of eyes knew with Comans position was from the get go. He is a winger, pure and simple. That's what he played in youth NT and PSG besides brief stint as nr 10. Just watching him for first minute screamed skillfull and quick winger that excells at 1 o 1.

 

[KB824]

Agree with most you said Serge, but anyone with set of eyes knew with Comans position was from the get go. He is a winger, pure and simple. That's what he played in youth NT and PSG besides brief stint as nr 10. Just watching him for first minute screamed skillfull and quick winger that excells at 1 o 1.

Which leads to two things here


#1) If our scouting department knew this, then why sign him in the first place, because under Conte, he wouldn't have fit there either

#2) He was 18 with us. Players and coaches can adapt to different positions. He has his whole future ahead of him. I am not suggesting that we turned him into a defender or a DM, but if he has that kind of skillset, then there must be a way to incorporate that into the squad, even if for a change of pace or yes, a change of formation when form and injuries call for it. If being able to adapt and change were not true, than Zambrotta and Pirlo would not have been world class at Fullback and Regista, respectively.

 

[Vlad]

Which leads to two things here


#1) If our scouting department knew this, then why sign him in the first place, because under Conte, he wouldn't have fit there either

#2) He was 18 with us. Players and coaches can adapt to different positions. He has his whole future ahead of him. I am not suggesting that we turned him into a defender or a DM, but if he has that kind of skillset, then there must be a way to incorporate that into the squad, even if for a change of pace or yes, a change of formation when form and injuries call for it. If being able to adapt and change were not true, than Zambrotta and Pirlo would not have been world class at Fullback and Regista, respectively.

Brought a talented youngster on a free deal, tried to adapt him into a different role, but he wasn't capable of adjusting to our requirements. We sold him for 28m profit early in the next season. He would be a fringe player here and certainly wouldn't have the impact he's been having at Bayern, in an open league, more fitting for the player of his profile that predominatly relies on speed, but severly lacks in other departments. Great deal for all parties involved. There wasn't any indication that he'd play any other role than a striker here, last year in our first game against Chievo he played as a CF, later on as a SS. People need to move on and focus on more important matters. imo

 

[KB824]

Brought a talented youngster on a free deal, tried to adapt him into a different role, but he wasn't capable of adjusting to our requirements. We sold him for 28m profit early in the next season. He would be a fringe player here and certainly wouldn't have the impact he's been having at Bayern, in an open league, more fitting for the player of his profile that predominatly relies on speed, but severly lacks in other departments. Great deal for all parties involved. There wasn't any indication that he'd play any other role than a striker here, last year in our first game against Chievo he played as a CF, later on as a SS. People need to move on and focus on more important matters. imo

And if they sold him for 28 million upfront, I would have had far less of an issue with it.


And if the Bundesliga is such an open league, then why do we even waste our time in the transfer section talking about players in the Bundesliga, such as Gotze, Draxler, Gundogan, Mikh,et al....................................

Because the way it sounds, they too are a product of their league.

 

[Hist]

Here is what I can "Wrap my head around"


#1) He was an 18 year old kid, that Juve thought enough of to poach from PSG whilst Conte was still the coach. In essence, angering PSG by taking one of their prodigious talents right from under their noses, and doing this even though Conte was balls deep in a 3-5-2 formation that he had been using for 3 years. Yet they still signed him

#2) There were moments where he struggled, as ANY 18 year old kid not named Messi or Ronaldo is going to do when trying to adapt to a whole new league.

#3) There were also moments of brilliance by him as well. Moments that you, Andy, Dru , and I talked about frequently

#4) This club capitulated to the demands of a 19 year old kid who was still under contract, because he "wanted to leave" Well, that's life. It's not meant to be easy. If that were the case, then no one would be poor, or sick. Life sucks, tell the kid to get over it

#5) They then go and sell him to one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world. Mind you, this is the same kid that was the 24th player out of 25 on last year's Juve squad. Yet Bayern Munich, whose track record far outshines ours in regards to player development, decide that they see enough in this young man to make an investment in him. A deal, that mind you, is a no lose situation for them, and here is why.

#6) 28 Million euro, with 21 million of it coming in the summer of 2017 is NOT the same as 28 million euro in the summer of 2015. IF Juve were to get that money upfront for him, then I would have had far less issues with this deal, considering that Juve could have very well taken that entire sum and gotten Allegri the AM that he WANTED and DESERVED. instead, they got 5 million upfront. Hi, Hernanes. Welcome aboard.

#7) If Coman continues on the progression that he is on right now, then Bayern Munich will be counting down the minutes until they can make the purchase option official, because a 21 year old Coman playing for Bayern Munich with 2 full seasons playing domestically and the CL for a huge club will not only be worth far more than the 21 million they are going to pay, but far more than the 28 million paid out over three transfer summers. Do you think that Juve could get a player comparable to what Coman could very well be in 2 years time, considering age, experience, and accomplishments? Again, 21 million in the summer of 2017 is worth far less than 28 million upfront.




What I find interesting is that you, and you know this, have been by my side and Andy's side for the last 6 years screaming about having a much more youthful Juve squad, yet you have no problem with them willingly letting go of one of their prized young assets, because "he doesn't fit?"

Talent is talent, regardless if he currently fits the formation.


And whomever are making these Giovinco comparisons need to absolutely stop this insanity. Giovinco was not a regular rotation player for one of the largest clubs in the world on a domestic and European level, was not already capped by his national squad, and was never at or near the top of numerous top players under 20 lists when he was 19 years old.

Okay so your suggestion is that Juve switch to a 4-3-3?

 

[JuveJay]

And if the Bundesliga is such an open league, then why do we even waste our time in the transfer section talking about players in the Bundesliga, such as Gotze, Draxler, Gundogan, Mikh,et al....................................

Because the way it sounds, they too are a product of their league.

Those are all attacking players though? I don't think anyone will doubt the Bundesliga produces good attacking players, which I guess is the point. I mean Bendtner still has a pro contract there for a decent side, how difficult can it be?

 

[KB824]

Okay so your suggestion is that Juve switch to a 4-3-3?

Yeah, that is my suggestion.

To switch to a 4-3-3. Because that was the gist of the whole argument. Never mind the fact that he is playing in a 5 man midfield right now at Bayern.

- - - Updated - - -

Those are all attacking players though? I don't think anyone will doubt the Bundesliga produces good attacking players, which I guess is the point. I mean Bendtner still has a pro contract there for a decent side, how difficult can it be?

And 39 year old Luca Toni is still in Serie A

 

[Osman]

predominatly relies on speed, but severly lacks in other departments.

Bbbbbb.... .ullshit

 

[JuveJay]

And 39 year old Luca Toni is still in Serie A

Come on man Luca is a machine! Lord Bendtner has never scored goals, not even in a kick about in his garden.

 

[KB824]

Come on man Luca is a machine! Lord Bendtner has never scored goals, not even in a kick about in his garden.

I love Luca. Pure gentleman.


However.


Dude is 39 years old, or really close to it, still being a semi-effective goal scorer in Serie A

 

[Vlad]

And if they sold him for 28 million upfront, I would have had far less of an issue with it.


And if the Bundesliga is such an open league, then why do we even waste our time in the transfer section talking about players in the Bundesliga, such as Gotze, Draxler, Gundogan, Mikh,et al....................................

Because the way it sounds, they too are a product of their league.

I don't know, why do you?

Joking aside, there are players in Bayernliga and there have been players coming from there that were able adapt to Serie A requirements, since they have more facets to their game than Coman.

- - - Updated - - -

Bbbbbb.... .ullshit

You think he showed anything more apart from being an incredibly fast player here? The guy looked clueless most of the time. Remember when he was subbed out after half an hour in one of the games (iirc vs Fiorentina in Coppa) since he was utterly useless on the pitch and was thrown around like a rag doll. On another occasion he spent the last 5 minutes of our home game vs Dortmund and immediately lost the ball that led to a promising counter attack. Why some of you still cry about his leave is beyond me. But to each his own I guess.

 

[Hist]

Yeah, that is my suggestion.

To switch to a 4-3-3. Because that was the gist of the whole argument. Never mind the fact that he is playing in a 5 man midfield right now at Bayern.

- - - Updated - - -



And 39 year old Luca Toni is still in Serie A

You are saying we should not have let him go and should have let him grow here. You said that him not fitting us is somehow irrelevant because talent is talent. I am interested in knowing how we could have accommodated him and given him the time to grow. I don't think that we should keep talented players regardless of whether they fit our formation or not. If they do not then we sell them for a hefty fee like we did with Koman (even if it was risk free for Bayern).

Do you think we should have played him as an SS or WB in our current formation? Or do you think we should have switched to a different formation say 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 where he could be a winger?

With talented players that fit your formation, you obviously give them time to grow the same way we did with Pogba and they probably would have no reason to want to leave either if they are getting chances. On the other hand, the way you deal with talented players that do NOT fit your formation (wingers in our case) is either you force them to learn a new position (play them as SS or WB), or you change your formation to a winger based one (4-3-3/4-2-3-1) or you sell them for a hefty fee (like we did with Coman).

If we were already playing 4-3-3 and Bayern came in to snatch Coman then that would have been obviously an idiotic sell.

 

[KB824]

You are saying we should not have let him go and should have let him grow here. You said that him not fitting us is somehow irrelevant because talent is talent. I am interested in knowing how we could have accommodated him and given him the time to grow. I don't think that we should keep talented players regardless of whether they fit our formation or not. If they do not then we sell them for a hefty fee like we did with Koman (even if it was risk free for Bayern).

Do you think we should have played him as an SS or WB in our current formation? Or do you think we should have switched to a different formation say 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 where he could be a winger?

With talented players that fit your formation, you obviously give them time to grow the same way we did with Pogba and they probably would have no reason to want to leave either if they are getting chances. On the other hand, the way you deal with talented players that do NOT fit your formation (wingers in our case) is either you force them to learn a new position (play them as SS or WB), or you change your formation to a winger based one (4-3-3/4-2-3-1) or you sell them for a hefty fee (like we did with Coman).

If we were already playing 4-3-3 and Bayern came in to snatch Coman then that would have been obviously an idiotic sell.

Play him as a SS with another striker up front as a vice-dybala, simply for the fact that we knew that eventually, without a proper backup, it would affect him. Or play just behind the striker, to give him the space to operate. He was being played with his back to the goal. Why would anyone do that? You negate his greatest asset by doing that, which is his pace and the ability to break into open spaces. Play him as a wingback in a 5 man midfield. Not every player on the pitch needs to have defensive workrate. Cuadrado is not valuable to this club because he is a defensive dynamo. Sometimes the potential positives in attack can offset the liabilities in defense. Coman has already shown that he is a much better crosser than Cuadrado, and the fact is, he was ours. The way it seems, people were absolutely convinced that Coman's ceiling was already reached, that he could not somehow be better than he was last year. I find that to be rather silly.

He could have been a part of the next generation of this club. For a club like ours, that can't just go and buy ready made players every year, an asset like that is valuable, and by not getting the 28 million upfront that could have been used immediately, they devalued their own transfer. what you can get now for 28 million is more likely than not, better than what you can get 2 summers from now for 21 million.


Look, to me, it is just a number of things, not just the player involved. It is the way this all went down, and how this transferred was structured. They did not, in my opinion get full value for the money, and even if Bayern activate this clause, then that will be because one of the top clubs in the world have the faith in what will be a 21 year old. Which means that Coman will probably have had his value far exceed that amount.

Bayern is like the really really hot chick in the club, that can have any guy they want. But yet they reached down and took the 24th man on our club? They needed a player who can come in right away and hold it down until both Robben and Ribery got back to full fitness, and they took our kid, out of everyone in the world that they could have had.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm tired.

I can't fight this battle anymore

@Hustini, my Wifi home monitoring system isn't working again. This child is going to be able to hitchike to Toronto before I know it disappeared.

 

[zizinho]

Over two years ago.

but thats irrelevant. we still know he can play there

 

[Hist]

Play him as a SS with another striker up front as a vice-dybala, simply for the fact that we knew that eventually, without a proper backup, it would affect him. Or play just behind the striker, to give him the space to operate. He was being played with his back to the goal. Why would anyone do that? You negate his greatest asset by doing that, which is his pace and the ability to break into open spaces. Play him as a wingback in a 5 man midfield. Not every player on the pitch needs to have defensive workrate. Cuadrado is not valuable to this club because he is a defensive dynamo. Sometimes the potential positives in attack can offset the liabilities in defense. Coman has already shown that he is a much better crosser than Cuadrado, and the fact is, he was ours. The way it seems, people were absolutely convinced that Coman's ceiling was already reached, that he could not somehow be better than he was last year. I find that to be rather silly.

He could have been a part of the next generation of this club. For a club like ours, that can't just go and buy ready made players every year, an asset like that is valuable, and by not getting the 28 million upfront that could have been used immediately, they devalued their own transfer. what you can get now for 28 million is more likely than not, better than what you can get 2 summers from now for 21 million.


Look, to me, it is just a number of things, not just the player involved. It is the way this all went down, and how this transferred was structured. They did not, in my opinion get full value for the money, and even if Bayern activate this clause, then that will be because one of the top clubs in the world have the faith in what will be a 21 year old. Which means that Coman will probably have had his value far exceed that amount.

Bayern is like the really really hot chick in the club, that can have any guy they want. But yet they reached down and took the 24th man on our club? They needed a player who can come in right away and hold it down until both Robben and Ribery got back to full fitness, and they took our kid, out of everyone in the world that they could have had.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm tired.

I can't fight this battle anymore

@Hustini, my Wifi home monitoring system isn't working again. This child is going to be able to hitchike to Toronto before I know it disappeared.

I don't think he would have cut it as an SS or WB, or a CAM and I think management saw it the same way. If he ever becomes a good SS or WB at Bayern (though that is unlikely because they do use wingers), then you'd be vindicated.

No one would give him the SS spot ahead of Tevez and now Dybala or even morata.
A wingback certainly needs some defensive solidity. Cuadrado offers that on top of his offensive skill and so he fits the position well. Salah for instance does not and so would not fit as a WB for any club despite his offensive skills. He also doesn't seem to have any of the requisite skills to be a CAM. Maybe he could adapt to one of those positions I don't know but I doubt that our coaches felt that he could or he would have gotten chances there.