Buck Fuddy

Lara Chedraoui fanboy
May 22, 2009
10,929
Maybe, just maybe Exor didn't want him to take the risk of buying a €25mill++ player on €6 mill++ wages after what happened with Amauri, Diego and Melo? Just a thought.
Said the same thing myself a while back. As this is indeed a major possibility.

Our last 3 big transfers were expensive flops. And proof that spending big doesn't necessarily mean good performances. Simple as that. The guys in charge of our wallet will not have forgotten this by now.
 

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JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
75,559
So Marotta is trying to find an excuse now for his Fuck ups :howler:.

If he thinks that Players like Van Persie, Aguero, Jovetic, Llorente... are so out of our league, so why pursuit them in the first Place ?!

Why didn't he come at the start of the Summer and say to the fans, that guys we simply can't sign these names Because financially we're not capable !

How many times he came out at the beginning of the summer mercato and said this time we've got enough money to sign big name stars (so is he lying to our face as fans or he's simply incapable of Pulling these moves ?).

People in here are pretty much blinded by the great results we're having right now (most defend him precisely for that). But remember many defended Secco and Co too back in 2007-08 years when we qualified 2 seasons in a row to the CL. And i remember their argument being that for a team coming back from serie B Secco, blanc and others are doing a brilliant job (when the guy was clearlly fucking up in the Market) but nobody cared back then afterall we were in the CL and at the top of this league.
Would you rather he didn't try for those players? You don't ask you don't get...

I bet you would be chuffed to bits to hear him say in June that we are not going to try for any top players.

He didn't say at any point that we have money for 'big name stars' (and what is this obsession with them, anyway?). He said we were looking for quality and for the top player in attack. We did sign quality this summer, we didn't sign a top player for attack.
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
Maybe, just maybe Exor didn't want him to take the risk of buying a €25mill++ player on €6 mill++ wages after what happened with Amauri, Diego and Melo? Just a thought.
That makes a lot of sense actually. So when Agnelli was talking about the LcD/Plasma he obviously was thinking those figures would be blasphemy in the current scenario of things. Shouldve just called it a home theatre system to give it a better effect. Wonder why they started with RVP in the first place, given his wage demands were around the 11m figure. if you're going into a mercato thinking you're not going to be spending close to 25m and offer wages close to 6m for a player with a continental if not global reputation, then you are pretty darn deluded.
 

only-juve

Senior Member
Jan 5, 2008
7,450
LOL

Now there are comparisons with Secco.

I've got to stop reading this thread.
no one Compared him to Secco, just for the records.

By the way, I honetly believe that If Secco was surrounded by People like Conte and especially Andrea Agnelli. Things wouldn't be as bad, but he was around some really clueless people at the time.
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
Said the same thing myself a while back. As this is indeed a major possibility.

Our last 3 big transfers were expensive flops. And proof that spending big doesn't necessarily mean good performances. Simple as that. The guys in charge of our wallet will not have forgotten this by now.
Amauri, Diego and Melo are nowhere near the kind of targets we've been linked with for the kind of money we are discussing. These are game changing level players. Franchise players. Guys with continental reputations. Not to say they couldn't fail, of course they could. But you have to realise, the club at that point in time weren't backed by a new stadium, amd the tag of champs. The risk would be marginilised, unless we went for broke with a guy like RvP. Different scenario, different level of players that we are talking about. Amauri Diego and Melo don't have the quality to sell shirts off the pitch. Suarez, Higuain, Cavani for example do.
 

Jem83

maitre'd at Canal Bar
Nov 7, 2005
22,871
Is that why it was described as a gentleman's agreement? Again, I'll willingly give you the benefit of the doubt. So we had 21m euros for Llorente with a 4-4.5m contract for 4 years amounting to about 37m, or 39m, whichever figure you choose to believe. Thereby falling short of Dzeko by 10m.

We bought Isla, Asamoah and Giovinco for about 30m. I know, I know, can't wait to see isla coz he's so phenomenal, but did we need to do that having Licht and Caceres? Yes we did coz your argument is likely to be that he is better at RwB than zLicht in a 352. Which begs the question, why wasn't Licht sold, to PsG or whoever else if we didn't have the money for the one position that's been filled by panic buys 3 years in a row.

I like all the players we have. But this isn't and wasn't about the money, it was about getting a bargain that would constitute to getting something on our terms. That will never happen when buying a certsin calibre of player outside of Italy.
I agree with alot of what you wrote in this particular post, but there are other factors as well, such as the decline of Serie-A in terms of how it's looked upon by foreign players, and we're also talking about one of the countries in Europe with the highest taxation. Add to that all of our transfer targets (except for Llorente who was held hostage by a nutjob president) sat comfortably with huge wages and would actually have had to agree to lower their wages in order to join us. As for RVP, he wanted Man United. On top of that we had the uncertanties regarding Conte and the betting scandal that I'm sure made players like RVP and Dzeko think twice about joining. There are many factors here, both economical and other ones, which, at the end of the day, made it impossible for us to sign a top striker this time around.

I'm very glad that Marotta struck the deals for Asamoah, Isla and Giovinco when he did, otherwise they would've been in other clubs by the end of July. I'm glad he did that instead of running around chasing dream signings that, for now, are just that. Dreams.

In the future, who knows, but for now I'm happy to have a GM that operates economically viable. It has contributed into making us champions of Italy, and things are looking very much on the up!
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
Would you rather he didn't try for those players? You don't ask you don't get...

I bet you would be chuffed to bits to hear him say in June that we are not going to try for any top players.

He didn't say at any point that we have money for 'big name stars' (and what is this obsession with them, anyway?). He said we were looking for quality and for the top player in attack. We did sign quality this summer, we didn't sign a top player for attack.
And how can you not judge him for that, given that its not the first or second year scenario. It's a third year scene for this man, to not only have learnt from his mistakes but also not panic buy for a position that he created a vacancy for three years ago.

Of course, we should try for the top players or the relatively suitable players that all of us try and qualify as top players. But you got to focus sorely on those then and not spread yourself thin. Knowing thhe variables involved and the fact that we had so much going for us, had we put all our time and effort into pursuing Suarez, Higuain, Dzeko, JoJo, KjH, maybe we'd have at least one of them, having to overpay 3-4m in each case, but that is such a small trade-off because they would all come on a fairly even pay packet as we are concerned. Instead we didn't want to do that and focussed on cut price Llorente and went hammer and tongs wi a president who wouldn't budge, and scrapped with Siena on the last day ofnthe mercato.
 
May 22, 2007
37,256
no one Compared him to Secco, just for the records.

By the way, I honetly believe that If Secco was surrounded by People like Conte and especially Andrea Agnelli. Things wouldn't be as bad, but he was around some really clueless people at the time.
You implied that people accept Marotta's work, as they did with Secco at first, because of the results on the pitch. While it might be true that people didn't jump on Secco initially, you can see that Marotta didn't have remnants of the Moggi era to work with and this is almost entirely 'his' team now.
 

only-juve

Senior Member
Jan 5, 2008
7,450
Would you rather he didn't try for those players? You don't ask you don't get...

I bet you would be chuffed to bits to hear him say in June that we are not going to try for any top players.

He didn't say at any point that we have money for 'big name stars' (and what is this obsession with them, anyway?). He said we were looking for quality and for the top player in attack. We did sign quality this summer, we didn't sign a top player for attack.
I'd rather he was clear and honest with the fans. Personally I believe as a club Juve has the financial means to sign Big name players right now, yes. Its just that for Marotta this represent a very tough task.

Its like asking a Broker to who operated all his career on buying and selling houses in a certain range of prices (100-500k at most) to buy a multi-million apartment Complex. Even though he has the money, but he simply finds these deals way out of his league and he Will eventually screw up.

And believe me, I'm the last person to be obsessed with Big name stars. As long as a player is performing well then I'd be more than Happy (wherever that player comes from). Problem is, when you have a guy who's settled at a certain level of players and He's simply unable to pull big deals up then it would be worrying for a club like Juve.
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
I agree with alot of what you wrote in this particular post, but there are other factors as well, such as the decline of Serie-A in terms of how it's looked upon by foreign players, and we're also talking about one of the countries in Europe with the highest taxation. Add to that all of our transfer targets (except for Llorente who was held hostage by a nutjob president) sat comfortably with huge wages and would actually have had to agree to lower their wages in order to join us. On top of that we had the uncertanties regarding Conte and the betting scandal that I'm sure made players like RVP and Dzeko think twice about joining. There are many factors here, both economical and other ones, which, at the end of the day, made it impossible for us to sign a top striker this time around.

I'm very glad that Marotta struck the deals for Asamoah, Isla and Giovinco when he did, otherwise they would've been in other clubs by the end of July. I'm glad he did that instead of running around chasing dream signings that, for now, are just that. Dreams.

In the future, who knows, but for now I'm happy to have a GM that operates economically viable. It has contributed into making us champions of Italy, and things are looking very much on the up!

Dzeko continued to say he wanted to move. Went on to say how he's too good to be on the bench and had we met that optimism at the time it was brought to light, we could've had him. I'm not just saying this for the sake of argument, btu a lot of this comes down to timing and striking at the right moment. Ending up with Bendtner now just points out that we had all our eggs in one basket (Llorente) and when that didn't happen we were out on our asses.

Like I said, Marrotta while revolutionising the squad with 30 or so players over three years, has despite that given it a solid base. But one worrying pattern has been his ability or lack thereof to close the big deals, game changing franchise players. This coupled with the fact that each of these three years he has thrown names in our faces and failed to deliver each of the three times. I for one, have completely lost faith in his ability to deliver the kind of players who will out us out there with the elite in Europe.

He's a great GM to have when you have doemestic ambitions. He'll buy well, at times overspend, make mistakes, or pull of cheap deals within the peninsula, but given all the time he has spent at midtabke and lower level clubs, he has no experience or understanding of thhe level of negotiation, and perhaps even the process of bidding for a quality pksyer, and how long the process takes to close a deal. This according to me is what deterred a deal from going through all this while, and instead we choose to look at the market conditions. Remember how long Moggi needed to close Viera back in 06? The Epl was relatively strong as a brand then, the Serie a had already begun its slide. But he spent a good part of the summer negotiating with the club amd convincing the player without attracting attention to the situation in the press. That's how all big club GMs operate. I'm afraid, this is where Marrotta is out of his depth.

Next year, we may or may not be champs of Italy. But the mercwto conditions will be exactly the same as they were this year. The only difference is, all the players we were linked with, and pursued have all signed contracts at are outmof our price band, wage wise. Save perhaps JoJo and Dzeko. Llorente will have half of Spain and England after hum when he's free, and there's no way we'll get him. And next year, just like this one, there'll be no excuse, till we choose to find some.
 

Jem83

maitre'd at Canal Bar
Nov 7, 2005
22,871
That is indeed a good post baggio, but regarding Vieira in 2006, I would just like to point out that the team was a little bit more complete back then, and all Moggi really had to do was focus on one great target pr. year. We were also a european powerhouse, a much more prestigious club than what we are now. We've regained some of that status back, though, by becoming champions again, but I think you're slightly forgetting what a crushing blow Calciopoli was to us, as well as the continuing decline of Serie-A and the "Secco years", when we really didn't have a sporting project in place, and never looked anywhere near winning a title.

The conditions in which Moggi operated was very different from what Marotta has to deal with.

Serie-A is becoming a joke, and in these conditions, my opinion is that Marotta is doing one hell of a job.

To me, it was clear that he really tried hard to get us a top player this summer, but he couldn't do it all at once (add quality depth + get a top player).

Would I rather have Dzeko and not Isla, Asamoah and Giovinco? No.
Would I rather have RVP and not Isla, Asamoah and Giovinco? No.

Definitely not.

Next summer we can focus on ONE great transfer target. But this year, entering the CL and having the need for more quality depth, we simply couldn't.

He did try, though, but the conditions didn't allow it this time.
 

only-juve

Senior Member
Jan 5, 2008
7,450
Next summer we can focus on ONE great transfer target. But this year, entering the CL and having the need for more quality depth, we simply couldn't.

He did try, though, but the conditions didn't allow it this time.
Well isn't it always next summer !

Hopefully I'll be around to remind you next summer when we don't sign that Top player, Who knows what his excuse will be then. Probably a weak one just like this year :boh:
 

Jem83

maitre'd at Canal Bar
Nov 7, 2005
22,871
Well, only-juve. Personally, I will be more "ruthless" next year too. I see a very complete side now, and next time around there will be really no reason to focus on either quantity or quality depth. I'm all for making the next summer mercato about getting a top transfer target. But, personally, I believe we were right in not making this mercato solely about getting a top player. There were many issues to adress. We needed quality backup for the "MVP"-midfield (Asamoah, Pogba), and we also needed a quality right wingback for the 3-5-2 (Isla) and more flair up top in Giovinco. We also needed to acquire a young player that could be molded into a vice-Pirlo, which we got (Pogba).
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
75,559
In regards to Vieira, he was on a downward slope by then. He was a strong signing, but not close to being the player he was at Arsenal. Wenger uses Prozone on all his players, and Vieira was down in all of his stats by then.
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
That is indeed a good post baggio, but regarding Vieira in 2006, I would just like to point out that the team was a little bit more complete back then, and all Moggi really had to do was focus on one great target pr. year. We were also a european powerhouse, a much more prestigious club than what we are now. We've regained some of that status back, though, by becoming champions again, but I think you're slightly forgetting what a crushing blow Calciopoli was to us, as well as the continuing decline of Serie-A and the "Secco years", when we really didn't have a sporting project in place, and never looked anywhere near winning a title.

The conditions in which Moggi operated was very different from what Marotta has to deal with.

Serie-A is becoming a joke, and in these conditions, my opinion is that Marotta is doing one hell of a job.

To me, it was clear that he really tried hard to get us a top player this summer, but he couldn't do it all at once (add quality depth + get a top player).

Would I rather have Dzeko and not Isla, Asamoah and Giovinco? No.
Would I rather have RVP and not Isla, Asamoah and Giovinco? No.

Definitely not.

Next summer we can focus on ONE great transfer target. But this year, entering the CL and having the need for more quality depth, we simply couldn't.

He did try, though, but the conditions didn't allow it this time.

I don't at all mean to compare the two coz way too many variables are involved in their respective eras, and all things considered, anybody replacing Moggi would have their backs up against a wall.

When I gave the Moggi-Viera example, it was really to point out the scale of that operation. Not just economically, but the length, the process of bidding, the way we carried it out, largely because it had to do wi a player form overseas. Most big clubs go about negotiations like this and that's why they more often than not, end up with their target. Unfortunately, I see Marrotta doesn't operate at Juve like it is a big club, on the intl transfer scene. He looks for a cheap deal before looking at characteristics.

About Marrotta doing a hell of a job. The jury is out on it. My reasons for that are, our ability to prioritise our purchases. Would you agree with me if I said, our squad at the very beginning of this mercato needed an LwB and CF first and foremost? Followed by a backup CM. When we look at Asamoah, Isla and Giovinco and their purchases, what we see instead are an RWB, an SS and a backup CM who is operating as LwB. Considering these purchases were made at the very start of our mercato, wasn't it our responsibility to go for the to positions that would have the most telling impact on the pitch before filling positions that it could be argued had a fair amount of cover? For all practical purposes, we ended up without filling the two positions at the top of our list. This argument is often turned on its head by who cares, we are winning!? These issues unfortunately will come to light when we play in Europe.

Despite that, for me, we were never short of money, and hgiven we closed these guys at the start of the mercato, we had two full months to figure out a strategy, to if nothing else, not end up the way we did. We took Siena's target eventually, dont you find that pitiable?

Next summer, like this one, according to me, is going to be harder if anything, simply because of the wage component. Unless, some player breaks out of somewhere, we are going to have similar targets, and will have to pay out of our noses, breaking our wage cap to accommodate them. I can only hope the CL income will help create a bit of a buffer.
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
75,559
Next year, we may or may not be champs of Italy. But the mercwto conditions will be exactly the same as they were this year.
That's not true, they can change all the time, even as early as January.

I do agree with Jem in the sense that there will be little else for us to focus on next summer (or even Jan), aside from the usual youth recruitment, the squad is only missing one real element.
 

Salvo

J
Moderator
Dec 17, 2007
62,977
The parts didn't fall for us in this transfer market, truly. Look the very fact that a big talent coming through Serie A was willing to go to Southampton it shows what the current Serie A market is like. For this reason we need other big clubs to move, we need to take opportunities through that. If RVP went to City we would have had a great chance at Dzeko, if Bilbao were less traditional Llorente would have been very close, if someone like Falcao went to real im sure we would have been in with a shot for Higuain. For now that is all we can hope for.
 

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