Geert Wilders (4 Viewers)

[X Æ A-12]

When Wilders makes that stupid movie which has no goal but teasing more than one billion people and he is considered a hero in Holland, is that freedom of speech?

Yes, actually it is. It's him expressing an unpopular, distasteful even hateful opinion of his, but no matter how much we dislike it it's his right to do so just like everyone else without worrying about being blown up or beheaded.

We have the KKK here in America and most people hate the fuck out of them but as long as they don't hurt anybody it's their right to march and say whatever they want about the Jews or Hitler being right etc and our Jew sympathizing government doesn't silence them.

 

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[GordoDeCentral]

Does it really matter if the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is 5 million or 10 million or if among the targeted groups were also the Poles, the Soviet POWs, the disabled, the Gypsies etc?

The number of Jews killed/died in awful conditions in concentration or labor camps, ghettos etc is bigger than the number of any other group. Now, that number is definitely in millions. You have a number of Jewish population before the war and then you have a good number of many millions missing. They weren't where they were before the war and they weren't in Israel either.
But does it really matter how many millions they were when we're still talking about of millions of people killed and targeted only because of their origin.

 

[ReBeL]

He got only 15,4% of the votes in the 2010 elections (2 years after his movie), so it's clear that he's not the most popular among the majority

Dutch people disagree with you. He is their best face, it seems

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...n-course-to-be-next-Dutch-prime-minister.html

 

[chester]

When Wilders makes that stupid movie which has no goal but teasing more than one billion people and he is considered a hero in Holland, is that freedom of speech?

He got only 15,4% of the votes in the 2010 elections (2 years after his movie), so it's clear that he's not the most popular among the majority

Indeed, Reb, his is what I mean, he reached 1/7th of the voting population with his movie, and since you'e free to vote in Holland, this isn't even 1/87the of the entire population.
The impact of his movie is long forgotten, I don't think that half the persons that voted for him voted against immigrants in Holland, they voted for change because with Balkenende, the political landscape in Holland was a joke.

 

[chester]

Dutch people disagree with you. He is their best face, it seems

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...n-course-to-be-next-Dutch-prime-minister.html

March 2010, long ago mate.

 

[ReBeL]

Yes, actually it is. It's him expressing an unpopular, distasteful even hateful opinion of his, but no matter how much we dislike it it's his right to do so just like everyone else without worrying about being blown up or beheaded.

We have the KKK here in America and most people hate the fuck out of them but as long as they don't hurt anybody it's their right to march and say whatever they want about the Jews or Hitler being right etc and our Jew sympathizing government doesn't silence them.

I understand you, Kyle, but he seems so popular there just because of his irrespnsible opinions, and that is the point.

 

[JBF]

This guy is just another Zionist clown, it's the people behind him whom Im worried about.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Yes, actually it is. It's him expressing an unpopular, distasteful even hateful opinion of his, but no matter how much we dislike it it's his right to do so just like everyone else without worrying about being blown up or beheaded.

We have the KKK here in America and most people hate the fuck out of them but as long as they don't hurt anybody it's their right to march and say whatever they want about the Jews or Hitler being right etc and our Jew sympathizing government doesn't silence them.

but there is a double standard though, lets see these hordes go to an aipac meeting and express their views, they will all end up in jail.

 

[Alen]

Dutch people disagree with you. He is their best face, it seems

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...n-course-to-be-next-Dutch-prime-minister.html

In almost every country, my included, I guess yours too, you'll get a good number of the population voting for a far-rightist who'll play on nationalism and play the hatred card, targeting other ethnic groups and immigrants in his speeches (assuming that there is such a politician and such a party in the country). That number usually goes between 10-15% of the population.
I don't follow the Dutch political scene, but it looks to me like there isn't a single superior party that can get +20% of the votes and in this case politicians like Wilders can score. So these guys can become prime ministers even with 20% of the votes. But that still doesn't put the majority on his side, because 80% of the people voted for someone else.

 

[ReBeL]

Indeed, Reb, his is what I mean, he reached 1/7th of the voting population with his movie, and since you'e free to vote in Holland, this isn't even 1/87the of the entire population.
The impact of his movie is long forgotten, I don't think that half the persons that voted for him voted against immigrants in Holland, they voted for change because with Balkenende, the political landscape in Holland was a joke.

March 2010, long ago mate.

Well, I'm trying to find what good he will do to that country and I find nothing but his racist speeches.

Is September 2010 long ago too, Chester?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=41258

 

[ReBeL]

In almost every country, my included, I guess yours too, you'll get a good number of the population voting for a far-rightist who'll play on nationalism and play the hatred card, targeting other ethnic groups and immigrants in his speeches (assuming that there is such a politician and such a party in the country). That number usually goes between 10-15% of the population.
I don't follow the Dutch political scene, but it looks to me like there isn't a single superior party that can get +20% of the votes and in this case politicians like Wilders can score. So these guys can become prime ministers even with 20% of the votes. But that still doesn't put the majority on his side, because 80% of the people voted for someone else.

I understand that, but when he becomes the prime minister, his opinions will represent the whole country, not just 15%. No?

 

[X Æ A-12]

I understand you, Kyle, but he seems so popular there just because of his irrespnsible opinions, and that is the point.

Yes but forcibly silencing him through death threats or even legal means is just going to get him more sympathy and nobody in their right mind wants this guy held up as some kind of Martyr for freedom of speech. If pressure from Muslims forces him to silence his beliefs than they're kind of proving his point...

 

[chester]

Well, I'm trying to find what good he will do to that country and I find nothing but his racist speeches.

Is September 2010 long ago too, Chester?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=41258

Hey, I didn't say he changed his views, I said that in March 2010 they said he might become prime minister, and that wxas a long time ago, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

 

[Alen]

I understand that, but when he becomes the prime minister, his opinions will represent the whole country, not just 15%. No?

The question is can he become a prime minister? He'll need to make a coalition with others and in situations when the election winner gets 20% of the votes, the 2nd placed gets 18%, 3rd placed 15,4% and the 4th placed 12%, I'm not sure how many would like to be in coalition with him.

The Serbs had the same problem. The Radicals were winning every single election yet they couldn't make a coalition and they were regularly out of the government

 

[ReBeL]

Yes but forcibly silencing him through death threats or even legal means is just going to get him more sympathy and nobody in their right mind wants this guy held up as some kind of Martyr for freedom of speech. If pressure from Muslims forces him to silence his beliefs than they're kind of proving his point...

Well, I don't want to silence him just because I don't like his views, but I want the same standards to be applied when freedom of speech is mentioned. I think there are many double standards in dealing with such cases through courts in the West. Again, if he denied the holocaust, do you think he will considered innocent by the court?

Hey, I didn't say he changed his views, I said that in March 2010 they said he might become prime minister, and that wxas a long time ago, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

I did not put any word in your mouth, Ches. I just wanted to say that he is the same person with the same gay ideas, and never changed.

 

[ReBeL]

The question is can he become a prime minister? He'll need to make a coalition with others and in situations when the election winner gets 20% of the votes, the 2nd placed gets 18%, 3rd placed 15,4% and the 4th placed 12%, I'm not sure how many would like to be in coalition with him.

The Serbs had the same problem. The Radicals were winning every single election yet they couldn't make a coalition and they were regularly out of the government

I hope he won't succeed because we don't need more enemies really.

 

[Alen]

I hope he won't succeed because we don't need more enemies really.

I hope Pat won't take it against me, but I too hope this man doesn't become a PM.
I know nothing about the problems the Dutch people experience and I shouldn't interfere in their business, but if it's up to me men like this guy shouldn't lead countries.

Then again, you have many politicians who'll play any card needed just to win the elections and then they act differently. Wilders could change completely if he gets the power, but imo it's better not to take any risks with him.

 

[X Æ A-12]

Well, I don't want to silence him just because I don't like his views, but I want the same standards to be applied when freedom of speech is mentioned. I think there are many double standards in dealing with such cases through courts in the West. Again, if he denied the holocaust, do you think he will considered innocent by the court?

I could see that. I'm sure that there are double standards in plenty of court rulings but I don't know enough on specific cases to really get into that.

About the Holocaust bit I couldn't tell you. I don't know how things work in Holland.

 

[chester]

I understand that, but when he becomes the prime minister, his opinions will represent the whole country, not just 15%. No?

No, you become prime minister in our countries if you are the leader of the political party with the most votes and you manage to assemble a governement that has more then 50% off all votes.
I think that the highest parties in our countries have about 30-35% of the votes
And as I said, in Holland you are free to go and vote, and mostly, the numbers of voters there are 70-75% of all people with voting rights so it isn't even the entire population.
In 2010, Wilders got 1.376.938 votes, that isn't even 1/10 of the entire Dutch population.

 

[ReBeL]

I hope Pat won't take it against me, but I too hope this man doesn't become a PM.
I know nothing about the problems the Dutch people experience and I shouldn't interfere in their business, but if it's up to me men like this guy shouldn't lead countries.

Then again, you have many politicians who'll play any card needed just to win the elections and then they act differently. Wilders could change completely if he gets the power, but imo it's better not to take any risks with him.

I could see that. I'm sure that there are double standards in plenty of court rulings but I don't know enough on specific cases to really get into that.

About the Holocaust bit I couldn't tell you. I don't know how things work in Holland.