Football Versus Results (1 Viewer)
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I agree Denco, the Real-Man U game, in the first leg was breath taking, our of this world kind of stuff. Raul was absolute stud!
However, in the second, I have no doubt that Barca-Juve was better than Real-Man U in terms of excitement. I throughly enjoyed the game, in spite of the fact that I was biting my nails or eating peanuts most of the team because of anxiety.
My point is that goals does not always mean more exciting game. Be it baseball, Soccer, basketball, or in any sports, drama is the element that excites people most, and I thought we had plenty of that in Barca- Juve game. Real-Man U game, in honesty, bored me after Ronaldo's second goal, because once he scored that goal there was only going to be one result.
Also, I liked to stay in terms of sheer defensive qualities, I think we can teach Real and Man U, a lesson.
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But you are quite right Denco, we do lack attacking qualities, and I would like Lippi to adress the problem by buying some good attacking players in the summer. But in this instance, I would prefer to win than loose.. If this involves some sacrifice on the style then so be it, because nothing leaves more bad taste than defeat.
However, in the second, I have no doubt that Barca-Juve was better than Real-Man U in terms of excitement. I throughly enjoyed the game, in spite of the fact that I was biting my nails or eating peanuts most of the team because of anxiety.
My point is that goals does not always mean more exciting game. Be it baseball, Soccer, basketball, or in any sports, drama is the element that excites people most, and I thought we had plenty of that in Barca- Juve game. Real-Man U game, in honesty, bored me after Ronaldo's second goal, because once he scored that goal there was only going to be one result.
Also, I liked to stay in terms of sheer defensive qualities, I think we can teach Real and Man U, a lesson.
.But you are quite right Denco, we do lack attacking qualities, and I would like Lippi to adress the problem by buying some good attacking players in the summer. But in this instance, I would prefer to win than loose.
. If this involves some sacrifice on the style then so be it, because nothing leaves more bad taste than defeat.
Fortune favours the brave, defending is an art.
I see many of you are blaming the Italian teams for their defensive records, may I kindly remind they were not the only ones to play defensively!
With the few exceptions there, in the group stages, most teams have used their defensive capabilities more than is good for football throughout this campaing. The fact that the Italians are apparently still the best at Catenaccio does not mean that they are the cause of all this defensive misery.
The only representative from the country of total-football itself, Ajax, have been leaning on their defence ever since the first group stages were finished! They have drawn an amazing eleven games of their campaign.
For some reason, people don't poin the finger at Ajax, but instead they say that this young and unexperienced team did very well to use such 'smart' tactics and go as far as the quarterfinals.
Slightly odd, isn't it?
And how about Manchester United? Did you not see the game in the Delle Alpi? They were playing Catenaccio at it's best! Laying in front of the goal and scoring three times from counter attacks.
Again, nobody blamed them for this. They just praised Manchester United for being able to beat Juventus at home!
I can't help but smile at the irony.
It may not be the best play to watch, the defensive I mean. But it, apparently, still works. Even the Dutch (who have always been fond believers of the fact that attacking football will get trophees in the end) are now switching tactics for the plain reason that a good front-line is not as valuable as a good back-line. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.
As for what needs to be done to change this. Well, I don't believe there is anything TO be done! Apart from perhaps eliminating those bloody group stages in European competitions to avoid those calculations.
To put it shortly: attacking football is a dieing art. Now why on earth would you go out there and run straight into the upheld knife of the opponent? That doesn't make any sense and in the end, the only way to keep the supporters satisfied is by winning prices.
And why on earth are you supporting Juventus when you're such a fan of attacking football? I think it was Paul who said this first and I have to agree with him there. Juventus were never an attacking team and probably never will be.
I see many of you are blaming the Italian teams for their defensive records, may I kindly remind they were not the only ones to play defensively!
With the few exceptions there, in the group stages, most teams have used their defensive capabilities more than is good for football throughout this campaing. The fact that the Italians are apparently still the best at Catenaccio does not mean that they are the cause of all this defensive misery.
The only representative from the country of total-football itself, Ajax, have been leaning on their defence ever since the first group stages were finished! They have drawn an amazing eleven games of their campaign.
For some reason, people don't poin the finger at Ajax, but instead they say that this young and unexperienced team did very well to use such 'smart' tactics and go as far as the quarterfinals.
Slightly odd, isn't it?
And how about Manchester United? Did you not see the game in the Delle Alpi? They were playing Catenaccio at it's best! Laying in front of the goal and scoring three times from counter attacks.
Again, nobody blamed them for this. They just praised Manchester United for being able to beat Juventus at home!
I can't help but smile at the irony.
It may not be the best play to watch, the defensive I mean. But it, apparently, still works. Even the Dutch (who have always been fond believers of the fact that attacking football will get trophees in the end) are now switching tactics for the plain reason that a good front-line is not as valuable as a good back-line. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.
As for what needs to be done to change this. Well, I don't believe there is anything TO be done! Apart from perhaps eliminating those bloody group stages in European competitions to avoid those calculations.
To put it shortly: attacking football is a dieing art. Now why on earth would you go out there and run straight into the upheld knife of the opponent? That doesn't make any sense and in the end, the only way to keep the supporters satisfied is by winning prices.
And why on earth are you supporting Juventus when you're such a fan of attacking football? I think it was Paul who said this first and I have to agree with him there. Juventus were never an attacking team and probably never will be.
++ [ originally posted by Jules ] ++
Thank you, Jun-hide. It is the philosopher in me that needs clarification on just what luck is. We philosophers are not so useless in the outside world after all, it seems.
Thank you, Jun-hide. It is the philosopher in me that needs clarification on just what luck is. We philosophers are not so useless in the outside world after all, it seems.
me, a philospher? Hardly so.
.Not with my record in college days. Not in my college days anyway. Loves PS2, manga, drama (Hirsoue Ryoko in particular), playing soccer or basketball, drinking, girls....if anything a philospher is probably the last thing in me.
. However, I did take dye my hair black again.:sob: for the job.I just took the notion of yours on luck which seemed to be very thoughtful.
There is obviously a difference between attacking football and simply good passing football, maybe I didn't make this clear in my post. I would simply like us to be able to use the ball better and not look like a bunch of misfits in midfield, because ultimately this is the area where we lack both teamwork and passing players.
Tacchinardi is there to win the ball and start off attacks, its not his job to be creative but he does his best and his passing is the best out of the lot. He should be encouraged to get forward more as he has one hell of a shot on him.
Camoranesi started brilliantly, I was beginning to think this kid would develop into a really top drawer player. He's gone off the boil a bit, which is understandable, but at his best, he is a very technical player and can certainly pass the ball. His teamplay is superb and he has a great understanding with Thuram which I would like to see replicated all over the park, as it is with teams like Depor and Valencia.
Davids for all his hard work doesn't seem to be able to pass it well at all. He seems to have his own agenda, which invariably involves running into a brick wall so to speak. Oh so occasionally it pays off, and his fans don't let us forget it, but the vast majority of the time it gets us nowhere, I would personally rather see a more creative player in there, certainly a better passer.
Nedved is a brillaint player, and though not the classic playmaker he certainly contributes with his goals and assists.
Perhaps merely replacing Davids in the midfield would help the rest of them form an understanding. Perhaps Nedved could be moved into centre mid with Tacchi and we could get a more technical playmaker, or bring in a centre mid with a good allround game like Ballack or Baraja, Van Der Vaart maybe.
It would certainly help put us on the right track, without changing the team completely either. Apart from that Del Piero and Di Vaio, when on form, is a good enough strike force, we could do with a more orthodox left back too but we are not really that far away from being able to play at least good passing football.
Tacchinardi is there to win the ball and start off attacks, its not his job to be creative but he does his best and his passing is the best out of the lot. He should be encouraged to get forward more as he has one hell of a shot on him.
Camoranesi started brilliantly, I was beginning to think this kid would develop into a really top drawer player. He's gone off the boil a bit, which is understandable, but at his best, he is a very technical player and can certainly pass the ball. His teamplay is superb and he has a great understanding with Thuram which I would like to see replicated all over the park, as it is with teams like Depor and Valencia.
Davids for all his hard work doesn't seem to be able to pass it well at all. He seems to have his own agenda, which invariably involves running into a brick wall so to speak. Oh so occasionally it pays off, and his fans don't let us forget it, but the vast majority of the time it gets us nowhere, I would personally rather see a more creative player in there, certainly a better passer.
Nedved is a brillaint player, and though not the classic playmaker he certainly contributes with his goals and assists.
Perhaps merely replacing Davids in the midfield would help the rest of them form an understanding. Perhaps Nedved could be moved into centre mid with Tacchi and we could get a more technical playmaker, or bring in a centre mid with a good allround game like Ballack or Baraja, Van Der Vaart maybe.
It would certainly help put us on the right track, without changing the team completely either. Apart from that Del Piero and Di Vaio, when on form, is a good enough strike force, we could do with a more orthodox left back too but we are not really that far away from being able to play at least good passing football.
++ [ originally posted by JKane ] ++
It's not that we had no goalscoring chances at all. Ciro with the header, Di Vaio left alone in front of Bonano (still can't figure out how the f*** he could fall down!), Nedved's brilliant shot in the second half etc.
It's not that we had no goalscoring chances at all. Ciro with the header, Di Vaio left alone in front of Bonano (still can't figure out how the f*** he could fall down!
), Nedved's brilliant shot in the second half etc.
Great thread you have here Tom, but I don't have enough time to make as long of a reply as I would like to as I have to leave home in about 10 mins, but here's just a couple of things that I would like to point out.
Firstly, I definetely think that our mentality should be changed, but not to ultra-attacking like Real Madrid or Brazil. Maybe playing similarly to Depor or Valencia, who are defensively sound but still effective going forward (and fun to watch even), would help our cause.
Secondly, the only way I can see us doing this is by getting a manager that will agree with this tactic and play it the way that it should, not like how Trapattoni only put Totti, Del Piero and Vieri on the pitch against Korea to please the fans, and ended up playing DP as a left winger/playmaker, and as you have said Tom, our attacking problems come from midfield where the passing and link up play just isn't good enough, and I can't see Tacchinardi, Davids or Tudor getting any better at this, so if we plan to play with a new style, then the old dead wood has to be offloaded and some new blood needs to be acquired.
I'll be back later to lengthen my post. Bye for now
Firstly, I definetely think that our mentality should be changed, but not to ultra-attacking like Real Madrid or Brazil. Maybe playing similarly to Depor or Valencia, who are defensively sound but still effective going forward (and fun to watch even), would help our cause.
Secondly, the only way I can see us doing this is by getting a manager that will agree with this tactic and play it the way that it should, not like how Trapattoni only put Totti, Del Piero and Vieri on the pitch against Korea to please the fans, and ended up playing DP as a left winger/playmaker, and as you have said Tom, our attacking problems come from midfield where the passing and link up play just isn't good enough, and I can't see Tacchinardi, Davids or Tudor getting any better at this, so if we plan to play with a new style, then the old dead wood has to be offloaded and some new blood needs to be acquired.
I'll be back later to lengthen my post. Bye for now
Sorry, but I disagree completely.
Davids for example could have easily scored before the break and his effort was everything but easily cleared from Bonano. Tacchinardi made some fine long passes, Davids pass to Nedved (to set up his goal) was really good. I don't see how our missed chances weren't as "easy" as their's.
And then, how did Barca score?
Saviola's goal in the first leg (as I already said) was a very bad joke. Xavi's goal in Barcelona came exactly from a situation you wouldn't label as some magic display. Thuram should have headed the ball to the side, instead he made this bad mistake (under pressure though) and Barca scored. It was our mistake Barca scored, not their class.
Davids for example could have easily scored before the break and his effort was everything but easily cleared from Bonano. Tacchinardi made some fine long passes, Davids pass to Nedved (to set up his goal) was really good. I don't see how our missed chances weren't as "easy" as their's.
And then, how did Barca score?
Saviola's goal in the first leg (as I already said) was a very bad joke. Xavi's goal in Barcelona came exactly from a situation you wouldn't label as some magic display. Thuram should have headed the ball to the side, instead he made this bad mistake (under pressure though) and Barca scored. It was our mistake Barca scored, not their class.
Brilliantly said.... :thumb:
great point about Juve vs ManU at the Delli Alpi!!..everyone said that manU was incredible and they smashed juve. They beat juve at their own game. Ferggie said it himself. he said that Juve was the type of team he wanted to be like years ago and that manU has surpassed juve in terms of the style. Fergie said that ManU was better than the 1999 team because they have grown and developed into a team that can compete in Europe because they mastered the defensive part of the game and they know when to take their foot off the offensive play when they need to (as they did vs juve in Turin)
i would add: defensive play isn't bad for the game. you might lose the attrectivness end to end football, but defensive play adds excitement! and it's a test of team unity.
one note: i dont think that attacking football is dieing. I just think people have to respect different types of football as there are different types of countries and so on.
great point about Juve vs ManU at the Delli Alpi!!..everyone said that manU was incredible and they smashed juve. They beat juve at their own game. Ferggie said it himself. he said that Juve was the type of team he wanted to be like years ago and that manU has surpassed juve in terms of the style. Fergie said that ManU was better than the 1999 team because they have grown and developed into a team that can compete in Europe because they mastered the defensive part of the game and they know when to take their foot off the offensive play when they need to (as they did vs juve in Turin)
i would add: defensive play isn't bad for the game. you might lose the attrectivness end to end football, but defensive play adds excitement! and it's a test of team unity.
one note: i dont think that attacking football is dieing. I just think people have to respect different types of football as there are different types of countries and so on.
You disagree surprise surprise
True Davids had a good chance but come on man, Enrique's was a complete sitter! He was totally through the defence and on to the keeper. Davids' was from a tight angle, he was never gonna score from there, particularly since his finishing is poor at the best of times. I would have backed Enrique to score that chance 100 times out of 200 I really would, it was just an amazing miss and I thank him for it
You are right Barca did not score stunners either, but this is a team midtable in La Liga, we are Italian champions, IMO we should be able to break down teams without relying on quick counters all the time, even at home to weaker teams!
surprise surprise True Davids had a good chance but come on man, Enrique's was a complete sitter! He was totally through the defence and on to the keeper. Davids' was from a tight angle, he was never gonna score from there, particularly since his finishing is poor at the best of times. I would have backed Enrique to score that chance 100 times out of 200 I really would, it was just an amazing miss and I thank him for it
You are right Barca did not score stunners either, but this is a team midtable in La Liga, we are Italian champions, IMO we should be able to break down teams without relying on quick counters all the time, even at home to weaker teams!
people have to remember that just because we play bad in europe, its not actually that different in the league, most of our performances aren't very impressive bar against he big teams at home (generally)
in europe our poor squad depth in the midfield is cruelly exposed, we have no decent options really for central midfield (partly Moggi's fault for letting all the younguns go out on loan though) against Real.
Oh well, here's hoping our luck holds and we somehow beat Real but I can't see it
in europe our poor squad depth in the midfield is cruelly exposed, we have no decent options really for central midfield (partly Moggi's fault for letting all the younguns go out on loan though) against Real.
Oh well, here's hoping our luck holds and we somehow beat Real but I can't see it
Tom letting the kids go was something of a long-term help for us. it gives them experience, us the chance to make big money, and develop better talent for the future.
i somehow doubt maresca or brighi could handle a game against real madrid. i mean when we need to win we need players with some experience and are fully developed, capable and consistent.
not that our kids arent- theyre just still developing.
i somehow doubt maresca or brighi could handle a game against real madrid. i mean when we need to win we need players with some experience and are fully developed, capable and consistent.
not that our kids arent- theyre just still developing.
Well you have to ask yourself which central midfield would you prefer? Maresca/Brighi/Blasi or the Conte - Tudor partnership. Personally I would go for the younger players. Inexperience is not always a weakness, technically these players are good, I'm sure they would be OK against Makelele and Conceicao, the latter being a complete liability in my view while the other is world class. Ours would be in between
Erik there is a huge difference between playing sensible controlled football like Ajax did against Arsenal and Man united did against us than what most Italian teams do in every match no matter what the opposition
There is no way Ajax would wanna open attacking gung ho football against Arsenal cos that will be playing into their hands with their pace , they would have beaten Ajax
But to play Empoli at home and still play with one striker up front and play like we have done this season is in no way the same thing
I saw Ajax against Milan in both games and they attacked as much as they could in both cases in fact in Amsterdam, Milan played the negative football.
Inter's brand of football is totally reliant on long balls to Vieri and hope he bangs the goals
I agree with most of what Tom says except for the Tacchinardi bit as he is not a progressive passer of the ball and making 5 yard passes sideways and backwards makes us look unattractive the more
He has played very well this season I grant you that, but his play is still limited, the much maligned Davids at least tries to bring the ball forward and has a high work rate but unfortunately thats what we have , a hard working midfield who provide very little inspiration
Personally, I do not see a great difference between the way we play and the way the azzurri plays
There is no way Ajax would wanna open attacking gung ho football against Arsenal cos that will be playing into their hands with their pace , they would have beaten Ajax
But to play Empoli at home and still play with one striker up front and play like we have done this season is in no way the same thing
I saw Ajax against Milan in both games and they attacked as much as they could in both cases in fact in Amsterdam, Milan played the negative football.
Inter's brand of football is totally reliant on long balls to Vieri and hope he bangs the goals
I agree with most of what Tom says except for the Tacchinardi bit as he is not a progressive passer of the ball and making 5 yard passes sideways and backwards makes us look unattractive the more
He has played very well this season I grant you that, but his play is still limited, the much maligned Davids at least tries to bring the ball forward and has a high work rate but unfortunately thats what we have , a hard working midfield who provide very little inspiration
Personally, I do not see a great difference between the way we play and the way the azzurri plays
A slight difference at best. If you hang in the back, you hang in the back.
Whether Ajax tried to go forward several times doesn't really matter. Teams that play very defensively go forward as well at times through the counter attack. What Ajax played against Arsenal was NOT attacking football.
Perhaps I'm spoiled by the Dutch league but that's my point of view.
Whether Ajax tried to go forward several times doesn't really matter. Teams that play very defensively go forward as well at times through the counter attack. What Ajax played against Arsenal was NOT attacking football.
Perhaps I'm spoiled by the Dutch league but that's my point of view.
Ok.
I think I know the solution to the problems in italian football.
Answer: The pressure.
Serie A players, teams, owners, managers etc are under a lot more pressure than in any other league. Especially in the last few seasons.
This season we've seen coaches getting sacked less often. Lotti's job seems rather secure. Capello is still Roma's coach. Cuper may not be in the best position but he's faring rather better than Inter's previous coaches. Mancini's job looks very secure, surprising really, considering his age and the fact that he was supposed to be a temporary stand-in after all.
A few years ago we would be shocked this.
Honestly though these are all signs of the pressures on our players and management easing off slightly.
IMHO thats why we've reached so far. When we relax a bit, we are less afraid of losing and as a result we take more chances and play riskier.
Most Italians view playing safe as playing Catenaccio, and hence attacking is a lot riskier.
It really should makes sense to us why theyre so defensive, while the Eredivisie is so open and entertaining.
Whats up with them italians??
I think I know the solution to the problems in italian football.
Answer: The pressure.
Serie A players, teams, owners, managers etc are under a lot more pressure than in any other league. Especially in the last few seasons.
This season we've seen coaches getting sacked less often. Lotti's job seems rather secure. Capello is still Roma's coach
. Cuper may not be in the best position but he's faring rather better than Inter's previous coaches. Mancini's job looks very secure, surprising really, considering his age and the fact that he was supposed to be a temporary stand-in after all.A few years ago we would be shocked this.
Honestly though these are all signs of the pressures on our players and management easing off slightly.
IMHO thats why we've reached so far. When we relax a bit, we are less afraid of losing and as a result we take more chances and play riskier.
Most Italians view playing safe as playing Catenaccio, and hence attacking is a lot riskier.
It really should makes sense to us why theyre so defensive, while the Eredivisie is so open and entertaining.
Whats up with them italians??