Football Versus Results (1 Viewer)

ex-rasp9

Junior Member
Apr 8, 2003
76
#41
it really is a great thread, one of the most interesting...

i just have a real pleasure reading your posts, guys!!

so much philosophy, so great many brilliant ideas, such a usefull exchange of opinions!!

bravo, tutti and thanx a lot!
 

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JKane

Junior Member
May 31, 2001
304
#42
You disagree surprise surprise
Don't laugh. I'm just trying to keep up tradition. :irritate: :D

You are right Barca did not score stunners either, but this is a team midtable in La Liga, we are Italian champions, IMO we should be able to break down teams without relying on quick counters all the time, even at home to weaker teams!
True, but let's not forget that Barca still is a team capable of beating anyone. Let's not forget that they have brilliant players like Saviola, Riquelme or Enrique just to mention a few.

So I don't think it's such a shame we were relying on quick counter attacks, espacially in a stadium packed with 95 000 spectators, who were all against us.
 
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Tom

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
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  • Thread Starter #43
    ++ [ originally posted by JKane ] ++
    So I don't think it's such a shame we were relying on quick counter attacks, espacially in a stadium packed with 95 000 spectators, who were all against us.
    oh sure I agree here, its just sad that we do it in home games.

    tradition :howler: well so long as we don't get into Mutu we'll be fine :D
     
    OP
    Tom

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
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  • Thread Starter #45
    ++ [ originally posted by JKane ] ++
    Mutu? Now don't freackin' tell me you still want him! :mad: :D
    actually no, now we've got miccoli on board I'm happy..but it doesn't change the fact that he rocks! :D
     

    Stu

    Senior Member
    Jul 14, 2002
    17,557
    #46
    ++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
    There is obviously a difference between attacking football and simply good passing football, maybe I didn't make this clear in my post. I would simply like us to be able to use the ball better and not look like a bunch of misfits in midfield, because ultimately this is the area where we lack both teamwork and passing players.

    Tacchinardi is there to win the ball and start off attacks, its not his job to be creative but he does his best and his passing is the best out of the lot. He should be encouraged to get forward more as he has one hell of a shot on him.

    Camoranesi started brilliantly, I was beginning to think this kid would develop into a really top drawer player. He's gone off the boil a bit, which is understandable, but at his best, he is a very technical player and can certainly pass the ball. His teamplay is superb and he has a great understanding with Thuram which I would like to see replicated all over the park, as it is with teams like Depor and Valencia.

    Davids for all his hard work doesn't seem to be able to pass it well at all. He seems to have his own agenda, which invariably involves running into a brick wall so to speak. Oh so occasionally it pays off, and his fans don't let us forget it, but the vast majority of the time it gets us nowhere, I would personally rather see a more creative player in there, certainly a better passer.

    Nedved is a brillaint player, and though not the classic playmaker he certainly contributes with his goals and assists.

    Perhaps merely replacing Davids in the midfield would help the rest of them form an understanding. Perhaps Nedved could be moved into centre mid with Tacchi and we could get a more technical playmaker, or bring in a centre mid with a good allround game like Ballack or Baraja, Van Der Vaart maybe.

    It would certainly help put us on the right track, without changing the team completely either. Apart from that Del Piero and Di Vaio, when on form, is a good enough strike force, we could do with a more orthodox left back too but we are not really that far away from being able to play at least good passing football.
    Brilliant post :thumb: I agree with every bit of it :)
     

    Jun-hide

    Senior Member
    Dec 16, 2002
    2,068
    #47
    ++ [ originally posted by lacrease ] ++
    Ok.

    I think I know the solution to the problems in italian football.

    Answer: The pressure.

    Serie A players, teams, owners, managers etc are under a lot more pressure than in any other league. Especially in the last few seasons.

    This season we've seen coaches getting sacked less often. Lotti's job seems rather secure. Capello is still Roma's coach:eek:. Cuper may not be in the best position but he's faring rather better than Inter's previous coaches. Mancini's job looks very secure, surprising really, considering his age and the fact that he was supposed to be a temporary stand-in after all.

    A few years ago we would be shocked this.

    Honestly though these are all signs of the pressures on our players and management easing off slightly.

    IMHO thats why we've reached so far. When we relax a bit, we are less afraid of losing and as a result we take more chances and play riskier.

    Most Italians view playing safe as playing Catenaccio, and hence attacking is a lot riskier.

    It really should makes sense to us why theyre so defensive, while the Eredivisie is so open and entertaining.

    Whats up with them italians??
    Good point Lacrease, about pressure on managers in Italy. This makes teams very short sighted and thus play for result rather than unique playing style and philosphy.
    I bet Inter probably fired more managers over last 5years than la liga or EPL. :howler:.
    However, personally I think it goes far more than just pressure on managers. I personally think it is probably the tradition of Italian football, and it is hard to deviate from type of football from which most managers, players and fans grew up with. There is a saying in Japan which states, "A nail which stands out gets hammered.". This phrase talks about the virtue of group unity. It takes a lot of courage and gut from the manager to play in different style rest of bunch, and unfortunately, most Italian managers are raised in the school of "Catenaccio", I feel.
    Possible solution could be introduction of foreign coaches and managers in both youth and professional level. Particuarly, teaching young players about different style of plays, other cultures, and putting emphasis on individual techique would improve the entertainment level of Calcio in my opinion.

    I personally think, we need to add exciting winger (preferably left) if we are to improve our style of player. This team lacks variation in attack and put much depends on individual talent of Nedved and Alex.
    Also, having effective distributor in the middle of park would do well in putting some ebb and flow into the team.
    In addition, I believe than we may need one technically elegant defender at CB if we are to improve our style.
    One thing for sure to me is that, we have too many defensive anchorman, and we can surely do without couple players out of Tudor, Conte, Tach, Davids, Blasi, Davids, Baiocco, next season.
     

    Ali

    Conditioned
    Contributor
    Jul 15, 2002
    19,052
    #48
    We've been desperately trying to creep out of our pathetic and dramatic loss of form from the time Lippi left for Inter. Our confidence was so dented that it is absolutely stunning we are still in Serie A. Our football went to the dogs. It was painful watching Juve play and I mean it.
    In the early to mid 90’s we played some very attractive football culminating in the winning of the CL. As Paul put it we have never been an all out attacking team but our game put the fear of God into the opposition and we were able to score from seemingly a multitude choice of plays. We dominated thoroughly over the opposition and at the end of the match it felt good to be a Juve supporter. Gone are days when English opposition was 6 points in the bag. Our games still had the “here comes a goal feeling”. A pity that the goals we get now are set pieces and counter attack oriented. At the moment we labour horribly to complete a 90 minute game.
    Tom your concerns are spot on.

    To what extent was the success of Juve and Inter down to luck?
    Luck! I really don't believe in it. What Juve & Inter did was to doggedly spoil the opponent’s game. A dirty but effective technique and requires skill too. Sadly we possess this negative tactics with abundance – Shame!

    Am I happy with our way of playing?
    Although I am not happy with the way we are playing I do understand that to progress we need money and to get money we need to win. So it would be fantastic to win the CL and use the money to improve our team. Actually this type of reasoning dawned on me this morning.

    Do you think it is time for change in mentality and approach to games?
    Definitely. But what does it require? You highlighted our midfield as the culprit. I agree with you but the context of the change you advocate for in terms of players is slightly different in my perspective. Our defence too is way too old to survive onslaughts from fast forwards and has been placing an unbelievable burden on our midfielders.

    What do you think should be done and how?
    Obviously step one is to identify the problem. Some would say Lippi is the major obstacle. But if you look at the bench at his disposable then again you have see him in a different light. How do you play attractive football without creative players? The truth is we invested quite well in Buffon, Thuram, Nedved & Camo but completely lost it with the rest. Two of these players are wonderful midfielders with Nedved already proven. Camo on the other hand cannot be blamed for his drop in form. What do you expect when he spends half of his time defending? Most of you have claimed that D’Ale cannot perform at Juve – I don’t buy this and would love to see this kind of midfield:
    Tacchi
    Camo Neddy D’Ale
    Nedved and D’ale can be switching to provide a variety of attacking flair. With this kind of formation the left & right wing are fully covered so Del Piero & Trezeguet can concentrate on what they (used to) do best and score goals.
    Granted that we have to buy at least 2 good young defenders. Tudor could return to central mid. A good replacement for Ferrara – Maybe Chivu and an extremely fast left back to replace Montero.
     

    Stu

    Senior Member
    Jul 14, 2002
    17,557
    #49
    To me, our main problem as far as not being able to play the type of attacking football that I would like to see us play goes, lays in our midfield. Tacchinardi is a great winner of the ball, and not a bad passer either, but alongside him we have Davids, whose world class fighting spirit, hard work and determination count for very little when we're looking for someone to play that killer ball that would see the ball at Nedved's feet in an abundance of space, or our strikers in on the last defender/goalkeeper. Yes it would be a bit harsh to expect this from the type of player Davids is, but he should be at least able to hold onto the ball and not throw it away foolishly, unfortunately, more often than not he isn't. This, IMO, is one of those small tiny factors that makes our football that much different from the type that Real and most of the other elite Spanish teams play.

    Take a second to think... How many times have you seen Juve in a good position to exploit a team's defence but someone gives the ball away for no apparent reason? Or how many times have you seen Juventus midfielders surcum to a little bit of pressure when they could have just kept their cool and make an intelligent pass? These are little things that our midfield game lacks, and I personally think that if we could bring our midfielders to better themselves and make less of these mistakes, or further more just get rid of them and bring in new players, our brand of football would be a lot more effective, and even more ATTRACTIVE!

    So, you now decide that some of our midfielders aren't up to par and that you are going to get some new ones. Which players do you think could benefit the Juve cause? Here are a few guys that I think would greatly improve our style of football.

    Ruben Baraja
    Baraja would IMO be a much better alternative to Davids. Not only is his passing better, but he is IMO a much more intelligent player than Davids is, and I don't think that he would give away the ball near as much as Edgar does. When you add to these factors that Baraja is superior to Davids going forward one must certainly agree that he could make our attacking play coming out of midfield much improved.

    Michael Ballack
    Very similar to Baraja. His distributing skills, technical ability and his goalscoring prowess are complemented excellently by his defensive capabilities, and he also would be a great upgrade to Davids.

    I'll be back later to add a couple more guys to my list... Au revoir :D
     

    denco

    Superior Being
    Jul 12, 2002
    4,679
    #50
    Unfortunately our biggest problem is our success, the more we succeed in Serie A, the less likely it will be for Lippi or Moggi to change our style of play

    Why should they change if it has brought probably 2 scudettos and probably win CL

    The rest of serie A have done us no favours by keeping on screwing up all the time

    How can a squad as good as Milan's be that far behind us and losing to teams they should be thrashing, Inter well will always be Inter

    Roma with the amount of players they have, are a disgrace

    So indirectly these clubs are the reasons we have not and not likely to improve our squad

    We need a kick up the back side but sadly that may not come from Serie A as they always manage to trip up themselves when u least expect it

    We need to tinker with the midfield, as no matter how much we like these players, there is hardly any cohesion in that midfield and I cannot pick out any 2 players I can say for sure are compatible

    Defence we have all said is getting too old and most importantly 4 me, I will like to see players not necessarily superstars brought in and played in their normal position

    I don't wanna see Fresi or Tudor in m/f, I want to see Camo and Zambrotta fight for right side of m/f, no need to find a place to accommodate both

    Di vaio and Dp played as strikers and if we are gonna play a lone man up front , then he should have more diversity than Trez, otherwise play 2 up front

    Left footed defender at left back , central defenders with pace and I am not a huge fan of a holding midfielder without pace or vision and if we are gonna play counter attack football, then get strong runners with pace and one or 2 genuine wingers
     
    OP
    Tom

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
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  • Thread Starter #51
    ++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
    Why should they change if it has brought probably 2 scudettos and probably win CL
    mmm... great point, the old 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' routine. Problem is moggi et al might begin to actually believe we are as good a team as our standings show. Fact is we are not in the top 4 teams in Europe certainly, but since we got there they may be satisfied with it.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    #52
    ++ [ originally posted by -Fantasista- ] ++
    To me, our main problem as far as not being able to play the type of attacking football that I would like to see us play goes, lays in our midfield. Tacchinardi is a great winner of the ball, and not a bad passer either, but alongside him we have Davids, whose world class fighting spirit, hard work and determination count for very little when we're looking for someone to play that killer ball that would see the ball at Nedved's feet in an abundance of space, or our strikers in on the last defender/goalkeeper. Yes it would be a bit harsh to expect this from the type of player Davids is, but he should be at least able to hold onto the ball and not throw it away foolishly, unfortunately, more often than not he isn't. This, IMO, is one of those small tiny factors that makes our football that much different from the type that Real and most of the other elite Spanish teams play.

    Take a second to think... How many times have you seen Juve in a good position to exploit a team's defence but someone gives the ball away for no apparent reason? Or how many times have you seen Juventus midfielders surcum to a little bit of pressure when they could have just kept their cool and make an intelligent pass? These are little things that our midfield game lacks, and I personally think that if we could bring our midfielders to better themselves and make less of these mistakes, or further more just get rid of them and bring in new players, our brand of football would be a lot more effective, and even more ATTRACTIVE!

    So, you now decide that some of our midfielders aren't up to par and that you are going to get some new ones. Which players do you think could benefit the Juve cause? Here are a few guys that I think would greatly improve our style of football.

    Ruben Baraja
    Baraja would IMO be a much better alternative to Davids. Not only is his passing better, but he is IMO a much more intelligent player than Davids is, and I don't think that he would give away the ball near as much as Edgar does. When you add to these factors that Baraja is superior to Davids going forward one must certainly agree that he could make our attacking play coming out of midfield much improved.

    Michael Ballack
    Very similar to Baraja. His distributing skills, technical ability and his goalscoring prowess are complemented excellently by his defensive capabilities, and he also would be a great upgrade to Davids.

    I'll be back later to add a couple more guys to my list... Au revoir :D
    Ja, ja, those guys are great, but you are being too obvious and those players would cost too much. Besides, Maresca could do the samee job for free.
     

    Jun-hide

    Senior Member
    Dec 16, 2002
    2,068
    #53
    ++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


    Ja, ja, those guys are great, but you are being too obvious and those players would cost too much. Besides, Maresca could do the samee job for free.
    Great point Ricchenbacker2.
    Maresca would certainly add very needed technical, passing ability into the team.
    Pizarro, would be another good addition for improvement in style.
    As for Ballack and Baraja, though, they are great players especially the latter, I don't think they would upgrade the style too much. Nonethless, they alongside Stankovic are players who can definitely upgrade the team without distorting team chemistry if we got one in our midfield.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    #54
    ++ [ originally posted by Jun-hide ] ++
    Great point Ricchenbacker2.
    Maresca would certainly add very needed technical, passing ability into the team.
    Pizarro, would be another good addition for improvement in style.
    As for Ballack and Baraja, though, they are great players especially the latter, I don't think they would upgrade the style too much. Nonethless, they alongside Stankovic are players who can definitely upgrade the team without distorting team chemistry if we got one in our midfield.
    I say that the money that would be spent on them would be better put towards defenders, and besides, Davids isn't going anywhere, and he is the best.
     
    OP
    Tom

    Tom

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    Oct 30, 2001
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  • Thread Starter #55
    I doubt highly that Maresca could do the same job as a Ballack or a Baraja from midfield. Hopefully I'm proved wrong but I just can't see it. On your statement that davids is the best, its very loyal of you but he's hardly lived up to that billing this year has he?
     

    Slagathor

    Bedpan racing champion
    Jul 25, 2001
    22,708
    #56
    That's true, Tom but I think it would be wiser to hang on to Davids. We KNOW what he can do when he's on form, whereas it could be risky to get Baraja or Ballack. We wouldn't want to pull a Mendieta, now would we?
     

    Jun-hide

    Senior Member
    Dec 16, 2002
    2,068
    #57
    For me Baraja and Ballack are effecient midfield players. Neither of them are that stylish, even if they are extremely effective.
    Maresca, though, unproven, is exiciting to watch. There is no reason why he can't develop into a top class player given time and opportunity.
     
    OP
    Tom

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
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  • Thread Starter #58
    ++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
    That's true, Tom but I think it would be wiser to hang on to Davids. We KNOW what he can do when he's on form, whereas it could be risky to get Baraja or Ballack. We wouldn't want to pull a Mendieta, now would we?
    Yeah I can see where you're coming from, but Davids hasn't really been properly and consistently on form for a few years now. The fact that he has not been replaced in our midfield is more a matter of a poor squad with no real backup options.

    Although there is always an element of risk bringing in people from abroad, thats certainly no reason to not go ahead with the deal. With mendieta, he is still underperforming even now in Spain, I reckon he is past his best now, whereas Ballack and Baraja are entering their prime, and are fantastic players. They can work hard like Davids in the middle, but also if they get a chance they will take it, as well as proiding a lot more creativity and assists.

    The risk would be minimal with these guys, I'd certainly rather take it than persist with an out of sorts davids, who to me is the one player that is causing this lack of teamwork in the middle with his aimless runs and giving the ball away.
     

    Slagathor

    Bedpan racing champion
    Jul 25, 2001
    22,708
    #59
    ++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
    Yeah I can see where you're coming from, but Davids hasn't really been properly and consistently on form for a few years now. The fact that he has not been replaced in our midfield is more a matter of a poor squad with no real backup options.

    Although there is always an element of risk bringing in people from abroad, thats certainly no reason to not go ahead with the deal. With mendieta, he is still underperforming even now in Spain, I reckon he is past his best now, whereas Ballack and Baraja are entering their prime, and are fantastic players. They can work hard like Davids in the middle, but also if they get a chance they will take it, as well as proiding a lot more creativity and assists.

    The risk would be minimal with these guys, I'd certainly rather take it than persist with an out of sorts davids, who to me is the one player that is causing this lack of teamwork in the middle with his aimless runs and giving the ball away.
    Well, you're right there of course. I too wonder when he'll find his consistency again, it's taking a bit long.

    But there I think we could use Maresca. We hang on to Davids, bring Maresca back and let the latter play when the former continues too much like this.

    You say you can't see Maresca growing to be a great star and to some agree I have to agree with that, but that's largely because the media-focus was never on him.
    And who was really expecting Baraja or Ballack to become the great stars they are now before they were practically already there?

    Given the chance and faith, I think Maresca would go far!
     
    OP
    Tom

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
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  • Thread Starter #60
    Sure, the guy has great talent, but I would rather see a class player in central mid than have to rely on a somewhat unproven guy like Maresca or Blasi for instance.

    They would be great as backup, better than the axis of evil that is tudor and conte anyway.
     

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