Final | Portugal - Greece (2 Viewers)

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

I know what I say is hard to swallow, because I say you will NEVER EVER reach the level professional athletes have and YOU HAD NEVER EVER reached the same level if you had worked just as hard as they did. You're simply not gifted enough, get over it.

gray · Jul 7, 2004

I'm well aware that talent + hard work = good footballers. They are complementary though.

Let's take Pavel Nedved for example again. I don't think he's technically the most gifted player in the world. He hasn't got great control, he's not a fancy dribbler and I haven't seen him use his head in his life. Look at him though; he never stops running, and he's got one of the fiercest shots in the game. Now do you really think that these two attributes are due to talent? I think not. I've read many articles about his career and development, and amongst other things I read that his father used to force him to attempt a shot on goal no matter where he was on the field, and no matter which foot the ball fell to, and I'm sure he took these words to heart and trained as hard as he could in that aspect. Again, do you think it's a coincidence that he can shoot equally well with both feet, from great distances away from goal?

You can't say that talent overrides or nullifies the importance of hard work. I'm sure that if you take an average player who trains his ass has much more chance of becoming the next Pavel Nedved than a talented guy who sits at home and drinks beer instead of hitting the training field. Of course a talented player who nurtures his abilities through hard work will turn out to be a better player, but that hardly means that training hard isn't a huge factor in the overall effectiveness of a player.

Look at Guus Hiddink's Korea and Otto Renhagel's Greece. I doubt the Koreans and Greeks were the most technically gifted players in the world, but their coaches knew this, and worked on their fitness and hard work ethic more than anything, and this turned the respective squads into a group of players who could run and work their opponents to the death. Sure, you might say that they got some favourable refereeing decisions, but nobody can deny that they worked harder and had a level of fitness unrivalled by any other team. I saw videos of Korean training sessions where the players were winding down afterwards, and when they wringed their shirts, sweat literally poured out onto the ground. Compare this with the photos of training sessions of the Azzurri camp at this year's Euro. You see them lying around, touching each other's hair, sharing jokes and having a great time. That's not the kind of training that develops such technically talented players like the Italians into a trophy-winning team.

Yes I do. I play as a forward, and I think when it comes to shooting, I've got a natural talent for timing and technique. I'm not saying that I'm gonna be the next Batitusta with hard work, but I think the fact that I spend most of my time in front of the computer and eating fried food plays a big part in the sad reality that I'll never get scouted by Juventus

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

Actually I could make a comparison with the Corean national team players. These guys come to Europe and prove to be practically useless. Let's take Seol of Anderlecht for example:

He's practically always benched, when he comes on he just runs with the ball a little, does nothing dangerous and ends up costing the team precious points.

These guys were VERY, suspicously, lucky in the world cup, but if they have to prove themselves in Europe they fail miserably. The Corean guy of Feyenoord is alright, but he's nowhere near the star they said he was. And whatever happened to Ahn? Did Perugia really kill his career? If so, grand so.

gray · Jul 7, 2004

It's not hard to swallow at all, I've known that for a fact for at least 15 years. I never said that any old average joe can reach the level of professional athletes, even if they train 24/7. What I'm saying is that a lack of talent can be compensated to a certain extent with hard work, and that talent without training amounts to nothing.

Zlatan · Jul 7, 2004

There are a lot of talentless players that have made it due to hard work only. Just look at Gatusso.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

It's not hard to swallow at all, I've known that for a fact for at least 15 years. I never said that any old average joe can reach the level of professional athletes, even if they train 24/7. What I'm saying is that a lack of talent can be compensated to a certain extent with hard work, and that talent without trainingamounts to nothing.

That's true. What I'm saying is that training without talent amounts to nothing as well.

Zlatan · Jul 7, 2004

Your argument of the Korean player only proves our point: He's useless in Anderlecht, but combined with 10 more players who work their asses off they are the 4th footballing nation in the world.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

Do you believe you are as talented as Gattuso?

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

Oh god, they only reached that semi-final by forging the entire tournament for god's sake.

He's useless because he's surrounded with players with way more talent. He works just as hard as those players, but will never be as good as by example Wilhelmsson.

gray · Jul 7, 2004

Actually, Seol hasn't been as bad for them as you say he was. He went on good scoring runs e.g. 8 goals in 4 games IIRC. Unfortunately, he got injured, and Dindane and Jestrovic started banging them in like there was no tomorrow.

Fail miserably? Come on, Song got 2 assists on his Feyenoord debut, played 90 minutes every time he stepped on the field and even bagged a couple of goals while he was at it. Then got injured and suspended, but when he returned he also played well.

No. Ahn was never a good player.

Funny how you conveniently left out the PSV players Park and Lee, who play the full 90 minutes AFAIK every single time they're on the field, and have been key players for the club from their first season.

Talk about their 'lack of success' on the European front as you may, that's beside the point. I was talking about the intense training they received leading upto the World Cup, and the results that it reaped. Hey, maybe you even assisted me in my argument by showing that when they come out of such intensive training into the European training system, their lack of natural talent shows through because they may not be training as hard.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

I live in Belgium. I'm overwhelmed with news of the Belgian and Dutch league. So I really know these players do disappoint. There isn't even a single Anderlecht-fan that still want Seol in his team.

Yes, he did went on a good scoring run in 4 games. He played 4 lucky good games, his goals were extremely lucky. And now, when he's ran out of luck, he doesn't do anything anymore.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

And the PSV guys weren't outstanding at all. They played like serving players should play, no more no less.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

Oh, and for crying out loud, the guy prefers to be called Aruna instead of Dindane.

gray · Jul 7, 2004

I said for example he had hot goalscoring streaks.

Anyway forget it. You're really good at singling out individual points and turning them into your whole argument aren't you.

EDIT: Wow, I wrote my post without even reading this one. Thanks for adding strength to my point.

See if I care. Zlatan Ibrahimovic prefers to be called Ibrahimovic these days, but I'll call him Zlatan if I please. Again, that's not the point

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

Of course I am, that's what an argument is built out.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

It proves you're less aware of what is going on in the Belgian League than I am. Which is logical, since I watch every game every week.

gray · Jul 7, 2004

You must be very proud.

But the point (if you remember) is not whether Korean players are performing as well as they are in the European leagues. In fact, as I said before, the fact that they're not performing as well as they did at the World Cup probably serves to help my argument even more.

Zlatan · Jul 7, 2004

I already said that.

Seven · Jul 7, 2004

No, of course it doesnt. It only proves that without talent you're not going to get anywhere. They had one -not lucky, but stolen- tournament. So, Gray, I think it proves my argument.

First of all they didn't get to be the fourth best nation in the world by working hard, but by forging the tournament. Second of all they proved to be useless in Europe, because there were far more talented players who could work equally hard and thus played better.

Hard work is obtainable, talent isn't.

Zlatan · Jul 7, 2004

Dont you think hard work isnt a talent in itself? If it's so easy to work hard, to always give 120% why dont all players do it? FInding a hardworking, motivated player is much harder than finding a talented one.

Final | Portugal - Greece (2 Viewers)

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