[EU] Champions League 06/07 (4 Viewers)

V

Senior Member
Jun 8, 2005
20,110
  • V

    V

I would also say that statistics mean a lot in Athletics, but Milan increasing the ratio of Italian teams winning the European trophy mean nothing to me, I think that was when statistics were mentioned. Don't pull an Andy an pick stuff you like and ignore others, I know you are better than that.
I believe looking at statistics is worthwhile only when you are making an in-depth analasys of something, that's what they are for. They certainly can't prove someone is better or worse in something. That's my point and hence my surprise when I stumbled upon your post here saying stats and numbers don't mean anything and just yesterday in the F1 thread you expressed a completelly different point of view. I ain't pulling anything and Milan have nothing to do with it, it's just that I felt those were some pretty evident double standards.

As for Milan I as well can't understand how a Juve fan can be happy for their success. Italy already has a high rating in UEFA, not like they need points or anything, their winning the CL will mean nothing to us in the near future except a good old slap in the face of us fans.
 

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Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
Just look at the Uefa Cup. England and Spain tend to be well represented in there because their leagues have strong teams outside of the top 4. Same can't be said for Italy.
Stu.

I have always maintained that English has far deeper teams than Serie A, but you are taking things out of context here. Lazio & Roma should be playing in UEFA Cup, for if it wasn't Calciopoli, instead of likes of Chievo, Palermo, and god know whos. And yet teams like Roma are capable reaching final 8 of far suerpior competition in CL. I don't think Lazio and Roma will get smoked by Osasuna, Sevilla, Werder, Tottenham, Blackburn, or Espanol.

In anycase, I think the current Italian league structure favours their national team drastically more than English or Spanish counterparts. Apart from Juve, Milan, Inter, Samp, Roma, Lazio, Palermo, Torino, Napoli, Fiorentina no team in Italia could afford salary of established veteran players. That means 10 or more teams in Serie A will naturally focus on nurturing domestic talent since selling those assets to bigger teams is their primary source of income in contrast to TV revenues in EPL. As a result, likes of Christiano Molinaro, Michele Paolucci, Foggia, Bianchi are all getting to play regular games at a young age. If you contrast the number of young English players playing reguarly for say West-Ham, Middlesborough etc, it is clear that poor EPL teams are flooding their team with relatively unimportant foreigners because the survival means much more than developing talent. If I was English, I would hate to see a team like West-Ham, Newcastle, Middlesborough suffocating domestic talent to ensure their survival.
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
All it shows is that Milan are a quality team. The best teams in Italy might be as good as the best in England and Spain, but the overall quality of the league just isn't there. Look at how strong the teams from 5th to 9th are in the EPL and La Liga. They would smoke Palermo and Empoli.
When the Uefa cup was in its glory days and when it was actually worth something to win it, that wasn't the case at all.These days its not worth it winning the Uefa cup,ffs livorno and parma placed their youth squads.
And even with Parma's youth they managed to pass the group stage.

What nonsense are you talking about, man? Seriously, is it nonsense for you when someone expresses disgust? I get disgusted at Juve fans getting happy for Milan wins, it's as simple as that. I am fucking expressing my own fucking feelings, did I label anyone anything? NO. Did I say I am more of a fan? NO. Did I say that a team was better than the other where in reality it wasn't? NO.

I am saying what I feel and it all ends here.
you can say what you feel but you can't start labeling people as barca fans or milan fans just because they wanted Milan to win it. Thats nonsense imo.

We just want the league to regain its past glory, and Milan beating Manchester and winning the thing would help do that imo

Also i follow the Melbourne Victory in here and i go to their games, same goes for my local club back in bahrain. Does that make me less of a Juventino? imo it will never make a difference.
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
Juve playing poorly in Europe is just a myth. At the end of day, Final is a lottery since any given day anything can happen (for which Milan can testify to that). In spite of our failure to win European Cup more than 2 times, Juve have demonstrated incredible amount of consistency in the competition in last 12 years or so, and you can't take anything away from players and the team. Yes, it hurts Milan to win so many trophies, but what would have pained more is that, ManU winning their third and some uneducated journalist (with two digit IQ I must say) claiming such statistics to be better than Juve. Beside, could you have imagined the media hype surrounding EPL had there been two English teams in the final? Sorry Serie A last night was one match away from relegated to secondary status, which Milan prevented from happening.

I supported Juve when the team wasnt anywhere close to winning anything (apart from UEFA Cup). Napoli, Samp, and Milan were arguably better. But I enjoyed Juve brand of football, and to this I support the team. Winning is important sure, but being fan means more than just hoping X team win or Y team loose. In anycase, I have been watching Paolo Malidini & Cafu for nearly 17 years so I have become attached to those men personally, and nothing will please me more if Maldini lifts that Cup one more time.
 

lavenderguy

Junior Member
Feb 28, 2005
298
so if Liverpool wins the champions league and become champions of Europe. does that mean Liverpool is better than Man Utd/Cheski?(the potential domestic double winner?) look at the point gap between them!! it's massive!!
and what about AC? even add on the points deducted, they are still miles behind the champ(hate to say this) Inter Milan. So if AC wins does that mean AC is stronger than Inter?
I don;t think so. CL is just a two leg cup game where luck and team condition plays its part, and more and more clubs concentrate on CL rather than the domestic cups due to the prize money and reputation involved. PPl will always remember how Liverpool overcame AC in Istabul and be crowded champions of Europe and selectively forgot how awful they were in the domestic performance for that particular season.
So, what's d point of winning the domestic league? just keep yourself in the top4 and you will fine..
i used to love champions league but i dislike it more and more now, with some teams just set their priorities too obviously, they only wan the CL trophy..
e.g. Pool and AC...shame on them!! do u call that's a team that bear the pride of calcio?? i guess Juve will be a better team to represent calcio with more domestic titles won.
why don;t Platini just abandons the champions league and start off with a super league since major clubs treat the domestic titles as dirts??
it's a huge difference winning a european cup in 60s, 70s 80s compare with champions league in the 90s and 21st century..too much money involve!!
 

Marc

Softcore Juventino
Jul 14, 2006
21,649
If somebody is interested take a look at this, it´s quite interesting and funny. :p

AC Milan - Manchester United: Player Ratings


MILAN

Dida (7): For large stretches of the game the Brazilian could have spread out a large golf umbrella and practised his wet putting game. The vaunted and flaunted Red Devil artillery was basically composed of a cap gun and a water pistol, although when any danger did come near the man with the multiple partings was alert and on guard. Kudos to a defense that kicked sand in its critics’ faces.

Oddo (7.5): Much more offensive than in San Siro as Man U laid out a red carpet along the flank and barely troubled the ex-Lazio man in defense. Although his forward moves weren’t decisive he showed verve and pace along the line and ability to cross with persistence and danger.

Nesta (8): Maldini’s absence seemed to galvanise the veteran centre-back into a repeat of him at his previous youthful best with a supple and commanding display. He kept his younger team-mates in order, but, if truth were told, he was hardly troubled by a challenge worthy of the first leg rivals. Nevertheless, he dripped poise and class from start to end.

Kaladze (7): Calm and composed as well as accepting and giving orders with flair, Maldini’s ‘understudy’ may not have caused any sharp intakes of breath with dazzling play, he was a perfect piece in the machinery that ground up and spat out the visitors.

Jankulovski (6.5): Improvised and showing it in certain moves where he was caught out of position and leaving his team open to attack, the Milan stopper was perhaps the least convincing of the Rossoneri defenders, but did his job soberly.

Gattuso (9): If anybody could bottle this sort of pint-sized energy Duracell would go bust. Under that shaved head and bulldog underbite beats the heart of a true midfield warrior, capable of turning a world-class team like United into an apparent gang of asthmatic and arthritic old men. Almost shook Ancelotti’s jowls off at the end.

Pirlo (6): Not his best game as he failed to put shots on target with his habitual ease. The dead-ball chances were patent, but it was one of those nights where every little modification just led to a slightly different error.

Seedorf (8.5): A real old Dutch master, the number 10 galloped where others grazed, passing with incredible precision and moving with sense to tear the united rearguard apart, he scored an excellent goal and would only be a slight notch below the Plutonium-fuelled Gattuso.

Ambrosini (7): Workmanlike performance without the same shine as the illuminated Kaká and Seedorf. Combined defensive and offensive functions well without really being outstanding in either: a key, yet grey piece of the Rossoneri machinery.

Kaká (9): Although the screen may be pelted with knickers and slapped with handbags, I can’t give the Brazilian 22 a perfect ten. The inspiration he provides is just as vital as the perspiration that Gattuso provides to this team, but there’s this lingering – and self-admitted – suspicion that Kaká’s still got more to give. If some mad scientist manages to combine both players we may just have found a player capable of making Maradona or Pelé look like Timmy from South Park.

Inzaghi (6): Although Claudio Ranieri named him as the man to watch, SuperPippo was easy on the ‘Super’ as he showed that the heart still bets as strongly, but the legs can’t carry the body as swiftly. If he was back at his peak it may have been a different story, but the number 9 is finding it hard to keep up with the whippersnappers.

MANCHESTER UNITED

Van der Sar (6): The tall goalie who first hoisted Champions league silverware as an Amsterdammer was rolled and smoked by the Milanese he’d hope to see hammered flat and breadcrumbed. Not so much as his own fault – not even the age-old failings that have spattered an otherwise shining trajectory – but the fault of a defense that wasn’t up to scratch. Not as bad as Barthez’s recent experiences - two great saves - but bad enough to feel pity for a man who at least deserved a decent defense as he (probably) bows out of the Champions League.

O'Shea (5): Although there was nothing much wrong with O'Shea's defensive performance he seemed mesmerised by the san Siro spotlights and disappeared while waiting for instructions on how to proceed. Nothing that bad, just one of those that stood on the deck of the Titanic saluting and doing their job…

Brown (4): Iceberg

Vidic (6): The Serbian had pushed it to make the date, but was evidently unprepared to take on a Milan that had been badly painted as past it by a prematurely ejaculating British tabloid press that will now be either preparing the gallows or delivering one of those tacky patriotic balms. Given the circumstances – a gutsy showing.

Heinze (5): It’s a childish rhyme, but when he‘s good he’s very, very good, but when he’s bad he’s awful. The Albiceleste was found wanting yet again, many now starting to question if he expends too much effort of seeming to be busy rather than dosing it, learning from Passarella and predicting more than reacting.

Ronaldo (4): Stepovers that seemed to be bordering on the Mickey-taking – in a poor rather than wicked way – were all that the Portuguese star left at San Siro apart from a slight disappointment that the locals hadn’t seen anything that one of their own subs couldn’t do. In performance terms closer in liveliness to real namesake Ronald Reagan than the Milan man.

Fletcher (6): Not dire, but anodyne. The international scuffed his best shot wide but was hardly a scapegoat. Then again, with that sort of performance there’ll be calls for the lad to be put out to pasture. Predicted to be a hard man, but was too much of a softy in everything from attitude to finishing.

Scholes (7.5): The Gattuso of the Red Devils – what may seem like a backhanded compliment, but a true mark of respect. The flame-haired midfielder was ubiquitous at San Siro and wore the United badge with the pride and dogged determination it deserves. It’s a shame that his team-mates lacked his dedication to the MUFC cause.

Carrick (4): As disappointing as Mariah Carey without make-up.

Giggs (4): Too much energy invested in getting that perpetual frown to stay just the right side of constipated sapped his strength. Looked like a pork chop at a Bar Mitzvah on the right. The Welshman left his fans counting sheep as well as proving that his game as much as his head suffers from bald spots. If United fans had joked that some Milan men needed walking sticks, Giggsy Wiggsy needed a Zimmer frame.

Rooney (5): A shame that his play wasn’t as offensive as his mirror-cracking appearance, the number 8 was left exasperatedly short of real chances as nothing came his way and the Milan men kept him under tabs without much stress.
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
If somebody is interested take a look at this, it´s quite interesting and funny. :p
How can he give Pirlo 6? Pirlo was architect everything Milan did in the first half. For first 35mins or so Pirlo displayed a range of passing game, I have rarely witnessed. I don't think he was a good as Seedorf (My man of the match) or Rino, but every single member of Milan defence deserves 7.5 in my book. They really really were splendid as a unit.

If Kaladze had better game in distribution than IMO he was more important than Nesta in the match. Defensively, Kaladze is arguably one of the best in the world. Its pity that he can be quite awful when it comes to playing with the ball. Oddo deserves full respect, and kudos for pointing that out. There was at least 3-4 occasions when Christiano Ronaldo had to help out defensively because Milan was picking their passes on the right flank with Oddo breaching ManUre's defence. Whilst he wasnt overly effective, he sure made Ronaldo work on both ends.

Lastly, Seedorf was a monster. A goal, 2 assist, and unbelievable covering he provided in Milan defence. Rino literally operated as a man-marker to Ronaldo, so Seedorf had to cover one heck of ground today, and my word he did it so well. I will give him 10/10. Nothing short of exceptional.
 

Omair

Herticity
Sep 27, 2006
3,254
I believe looking at statistics is worthwhile only when you are making an in-depth analasys of something, that's what they are for. They certainly can't prove someone is better or worse in something. That's my point and hence my surprise when I stumbled upon your post here saying stats and numbers don't mean anything and just yesterday in the F1 thread you expressed a completelly different point of view. I ain't pulling anything and Milan have nothing to do with it, it's just that I felt those were some pretty evident double standards.

As for Milan I as well can't understand how a Juve fan can be happy for their success. Italy already has a high rating in UEFA, not like they need points or anything, their winning the CL will mean nothing to us in the near future except a good old slap in the face of us fans.
See here Vlat ..IMO, The difference between statistics in Football and F1 racing is that in football, unlike f1, there is no machinery that has constant performance based on their manufacturing. A footballer can have a day out of form any day of the week. No formula 1 car will be out of form given that human errors are less.

So basicly, Statistics in F1 are more reliable than statistics in football .. just my 2 cents ..

And hey, I congratulated my fellow Milanisti friends they deserve to be proud and happy but personally I lost my respect to one of my friends who used to be a die hard Juve fan wearing a Milan jersey yesterday. His excuse was "it's for the sake of Italia" .. Hell no it doesn't go like that ..
First of all, we're not Italians we're just fans why would be happy for a rival club to win ?? ok we cheer for the Azzuri but that's completely irrelevant Milan's glory yesterday was based on a multinational group of players. If I was Italian I would be happy for Milan but I'm not. If here in Saudi a rival club won Asian CL I would be happy for them.
Secondly, I can see the point of some people that they only wanted the final not to be an all English final. I would hate it too. That will make the final like a typical EPL match for them. But was that the case in 2003 ?? I don't think so :).

Finally,On another subject replying on that post of "why CL lost it's respect", It's been more than a decade that Liver had won the EPL. It's all known that they're CL hunters rather than domestic league winners. I fail to see how that makes them less of a respectable team. They have their goals and they reach them and other teams still fear them.
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
See here Vlat ..IMO, The difference between statistics in Football and F1 racing is that in football, unlike f1, there is no machinery that has constant performance based on their manufacturing. A footballer can have a day out of form any day of the week. No formula 1 car will be out of form given that human errors are less.

So basicly, Statistics in F1 are more reliable than statistics in football .. just my 2 cents ..

And hey, I congratulated my fellow Milanisti friends they deserve to be proud and happy but personally I lost my respect to one of my friends who used to be a die hard Juve fan wearing a Milan jersey yesterday. His excuse was "it's for the sake of Italia" .. Hell no it doesn't go like that ..
First of all, we're not Italians we're just fans why would be happy for a rival club to win ?? ok we cheer for the Azzuri but that's completely irrelevant Milan's glory yesterday was based on a multinational group of players. If I was Italian I would be happy for Milan but I'm not. If here in Saudi a rival club won Asian CL I would be happy for them.
Secondly, I can see the point of some people that they only wanted the final not to be an all English final. I would hate it too. That will make the final like a typical EPL match for them. But was that the case in 2003 ?? I don't think so :).
Finally, It's been more than a decade that Liver had won the EPL. It's all known that they're CL hunters rather than domestic league winners. I fail to see how that makes them less of a respectable team. They have their goals and they reach them and other teams still fear them.
Believe me if Liverpool could win the Premiership they would. But they were blown away by middle of the season, it became virtually impossible to do so. Everyone knows Liverpool simply doesnt have the depth, and talent to keep up with ManUre and Chelski for 36 games. To suggest that their domestic form suffer because they target CL is a fallacy. You simply don't play enough CL matches to verify if indeed teams are more suited to Europe than domestic league etc. With small sample size, anything can happen. Liverpool only made it passed CL quarter final 2 times in last 15 years or so. And they had incredible amount of luck last time they won it.I mean what is the chances of correct goal disallowed, dubious goal awarded, and 10 min comeback happening in most player's career never mind one tournament? That is why league is so much better in terms of gauging team's capabilities. Its not out of reach to suggests that teams like Arsenal, Roma, Liverpool start the season with more chance of winning CL than their own domestic league. Whoever wins out of Milan vs Livepool; one thing is sure, neither are best team in the world.

I like CL and the idea of pitting Europe's best against each other, but like somebody said in the earlier post, the current format inappropriately rewards mediocrity (being 3-4th place) and punishes those who do extremely well in their domestic competition by being consistently good.
 

Omair

Herticity
Sep 27, 2006
3,254
Believe me if Liverpool could win the Premiership they would. But they were blown away by middle of the season, it became virtually impossible to do so. Everyone knows Liverpool simply doesnt have the depth, and talent to keep up with ManUre and Chelski for 36 games. To suggest that their domestic form suffer because they target CL is a fallacy. You simply don't play enough CL matches to verify if indeed teams are more suited to Europe than domestic league etc. With small sample size, anything can happen. Liverpool only made it passed CL quarter final 2 times in last 15 years or so. And they had incredible amount of luck last time they won it.I mean what is the chances of correct goal disallowed, dubious goal awarded, and 10 min comeback happening in most player's career never mind one tournament? That is why league is so much better in terms of gauging team's capabilities. Its not out of reach to suggests that teams like Arsenal, Roma, Liverpool start the season with more chance of winning CL than their own domestic league. Whoever wins out of Milan vs Livepool; one thing is sure, neither are best team in the world.

I like CL and the idea of pitting Europe's best against each other, but like somebody said in the earlier post, the current format inappropriately rewards mediocrity (being 3-4th place) and punishes those who do extremely well in their domestic competition by being consistently good.
I see your point, and that doesn't contradict with mine. They lost their hopes in domestic league they focus on the "easier competition" with less but harder matches. Maybe that's Benitez's point of view that's why he made Liverpool reach the final twice in the 3 years he managed the team. I don't know if his predescesor approached the matter with the same prospect. It's about saving their season.

Still my point is, even though Chelsea and Man Utd are owning Liverpool in the EPL, Both teams take extra care when they play against the latter. Same goes with every other team.

And ya, Every team needs luck when they win ANY competition .. Luck doesn't mean a one game luck. Barca were lucky last year they almost an had injury free season.
 

Badass J Elkann

It's time to go!!
Feb 12, 2006
65,973
ha its about time that arrogant portugese prat they call ronaldo was brought down to a sense of normality and for people to actually realise that that ronaldo is nothing like in the true class of kaka. im glad milan won, i had alot of fun taking the piss out of those 90 min fans who infact i saw alot of them leave after gila scored and change their man utd shirts to normal clothes - shame on them! weldone milan - good to see some calcio pride restored, now finish the job!

i always knew that as long as milan played their 2nd leg at the san siro they were always going to go through, had last nite been held at old trafford, milan im sure wud of gone out
 

Marc

Softcore Juventino
Jul 14, 2006
21,649
I didn´t see people complaining when we had the allmighty Italian final with Juventus and Milan. But it would be the end of the world if 2 clubs from EPL played a final, wouldn´t it? Talking about Englishmen being biased.

How pathetic.... :)
 

Badass J Elkann

It's time to go!!
Feb 12, 2006
65,973
I didn´t see people complaining when we had the allmighty Italian final with Juventus and Milan. But it would be the end of the world if 2 clubs from EPL played a final, wouldn´t it? Talking about Englishmen being biased.

How pathetic.... :)
makes me sick how the english overhype their chances. they seem to forget that the english clubs arnt successful in europe cuz of the english players, but infact the foreign influence, yet the english fail to see this and think that with that in mind, england as a national team is still highly rated, when infact they are a laughing stock of overrated over paid and underworked players who cudnt hit a barn door with a banjo
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
I see your point, and that doesn't contradict with mine. They lost their hopes in domestic league they focus on the "easier competition" with less but harder matches. Maybe that's Benitez's point of view that's why he made Liverpool reach the final twice in the 3 years he managed the team. I don't know if his predescesor approached the matter with the same prospect. It's about saving their season.

Still my point is, even though Chelsea and Man Utd are owning Liverpool in the EPL, Both teams take extra care when they play against the latter. Same goes with every other team.

And ya, Every team needs luck when they win ANY competition .. Luck doesn't mean a one game luck. Barca were lucky last year they almost an had injury free season.
Of course Liverpool is a hard team to play against in one off match situation. I have a hard time recalling any easy match we had with Fiorentina. But that doesn't mean these teams are better than Juve, Chelsea, ManU, Barca or Inter.

Liverpool probably have higher statistical chance of winning CL than the league, since there is almost no way they will peep ManUre and Chelski in a 36 marathon, whereas in CL you get odd pass or two like PSV. So from their perspective CL is easier competition than the league, and vice verse for the likes of Chelski, ManUre, Inter and Barca. So you see my point. There is something deeply wrong with the system that rewards mediocrity at the expense of doing well. And Liverpool (lesser extent Milan as well) is the main beneficiary of such perverted system.

Of course every team need lucks. But some needs more than others. In Liverpool's case, it was a daylight robbery. As for Barca not being injury free last year - well Messi was injured in the latter stages of competition. Take Gerrard away from Liverpool, Kaka from Milan, Ronaldo from ManUre - those team will falter. But Barca obviously had enough talent to overcome such obstacles. Their real let-off was a Sheva goal incorrectly disallowed. That game was extremely tight and could have gone either way. But if that was just about the only let off they had throughout, well I say they certainly deserved the title.
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
I didn´t see people complaining when we had the allmighty Italian final with Juventus and Milan. But it would be the end of the world if 2 clubs from EPL played a final, wouldn´t it? Talking about Englishmen being biased.

How pathetic.... :)
I wouldnt mind playing Inter everytime in CL final, because you would have broken Milan's record by eating their neighbour alive.

But in anycase, I thought the final was a bore (though it didn't lack quality), and from neutral's perspective Juve - Real would have made the better final.

Of course English is biased and so is Italian. But my loyalty is pledged to Serie A, a league which Juve competes in. What is the joy of being the king of a league, which others will look down upon. I prided in Juve playing in Serie A in 90s, because even though we werent winning at the time, the league was so sick, we would blow away any opposition in Spain or England. I mean freaking Torino was beating Real in those days. And lastly nobody is as good as English when it comes down convincing others that they stand for good. I like British when I stayed there. But they can be extremely pretensious, when you come to last bone, they are just as selfish as others.
 

peckface

approaching curve
Oct 3, 2004
2,357
:lol: I didn´t hear a dumber thing than this for months. How is this gonna help Juventus? :disagree:
No your right, I should be happy when Milans shelf got one less trophy while our league, our reputation, our home lies in ruins. I promise to be more shallow and not to think one step further.
 

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