Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (11 Viewers)

Well, did...

  • Man make God?

  • God make Man?


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Apr 15, 2006
56,640
Cool, but what about now? You cannot be ignorant to this 100%, you would still have some sort of opinion. Can the universe and everything there is come out of nothing or other possibility that it have been here forever, because I don't see any other alternatives.

I don't see any other options tbh when it comes to this, and todays science too, so can you believe any of the two possibilities?
I already posted an experiment that shows virtual particles can come out of nothing. So that possibility seems more likely.

Besides, as far as I can think, it's practically impossible to prove that something has existed forever. So making claims that something has existed forever(let alone something as complex as a god) is pointless.
 

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Mirko

Junior Member
Aug 29, 2012
342
I already posted an experiment that shows virtual particles can come out of nothing. So that possibility seems more likely.

Besides, as far as I can think, it's practically impossible to prove that something has existed forever. So making claims that something has existed forever(let alone something as complex as a god) is pointless.
Hand of god.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
I already posted an experiment that shows virtual particles can come out of nothing. So that possibility seems more likely.

Besides, as far as I can think, it's practically impossible to prove that something has existed forever. So making claims that something has existed forever(let alone something as complex as a god) is pointless.
I'm not talking about god now. I just asked your opinion on matter and everything that exists, like universe, big bang, and anything that could predate big bang and what do you think about it. Do you think any of those possibilities seems possible to you and you could believe them?
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,640
I'm not talking about god now. I just asked your opinion on matter and everything that exists, like universe, big bang, and anything that could predate big bang and what do you think about it. Do you think any of those possibilities seems possible to you and you could believe them?
To me, the natural order seems more like something simple grows to become something more complex over time. For ex, simple hydrogen atoms became something more complex like the helium atom. Something as simple as helium becomes something more complex like carbon. In the same way, single-celled organisms give rise to multi-cellular organisms. Sperms become foetuses, foetuses become babies, babies become adults. The same is true for our intellect. We aren't born with a complete understanding of everything. We start by understanding small, basic concepts, and our intellect grows in time. A completed, working computer program doesn't appear out of nothing. It stars with a few lines of code that over time grows into something bigger and complex. A company starts out small and grows bigger and complex over time.

A product B is usually a result of another product A, but A is simpler than B. There definitely are exceptions to this(decay and decomposition come into mind). But it's not unreasonable to suggest that this is the nature of most of the things we see. If we trace back to the origins of the universe using this premise, then we'll be left with something so simple, that the only thing more simple than that is 'nothing'.

If we consider the premise that A leads to B, but A is necessarily more complex than B, then there has to be something(say x) that lead to A that is necessarily more complex than A. But then there'll have to be another thing, say y, that led to x that is necessarily more complex than x. This premise will lead to an infinite regression. Therefore, my premise that simple A led to a complex B is more favourable and more likely.
 

Bianconero_Aus

Beppe Marotta Is My God
May 26, 2009
81,113
And you, would you be ok, if everyhting including big bang and every discovery we will make in the future at some point happened to come to existence out of nothing? Or that all this just happened to be and didn't had any start or creation?
I don't think he said he believes it came out of nothing, obviously he doesnt know how we came to be, but doesnt believe a "god" created us.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
To me, the natural order seems more like something simple grows to become something more complex over time. For ex, simple hydrogen atoms became something more complex like the helium atom. Something as simple as helium becomes something more complex like carbon. In the same way, single-celled organisms give rise to multi-cellular organisms. Sperms become foetuses, foetuses become babies, babies become adults. The same is true for our intellect. We aren't born with a complete understanding of everything. We start by understanding small, basic concepts, and our intellect grows in time. A completed, working computer program doesn't appear out of nothing. It stars with a few lines of code that over time grows into something bigger and complex. A company starts out small and grows bigger and complex over time.

A product B is usually a result of another product A, but A is simpler than B. There definitely are exceptions to this(decay and decomposition come into mind). But it's not unreasonable to suggest that this is the nature of most of the things we see. If we trace back to the origins of the universe using this premise, then we'll be left with something so simple, that the only thing more simple than that is 'nothing'.
I'm not denying that at all, in fact I agree to this.

Though what I'm saying is if science theories say that the universe is infinete, why can't god be? if the theory say it just appeared without needing anything, why god has to have a creator? As you say the logic can take you so much, and the to prove that something was infinite is probably impossible you're all objectivity to scientific methods boils down to believing just like people choose to believe in god.

Oh and nothing is everything :D

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I don't think he said he believes it came out of nothing, obviously he doesnt know how we came to be, but doesnt believe a "god" created us.
The creation wasn't my point.

The thing is there are most likely only two possibilites, infinite or poping out of nothing. And if one can believe about those through scientific methods, which won't prove 100% any of those possibilities you will have to do a leap of faith, just like you would have to do with god. In the end both sides are the same in terms of belief, both have to do a leap of faith.
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,640
I'm not denying that at all, in fact I agree to this.
I'm glad to see you approve of it. :)

Though what I'm saying is if science theories say that the universe is infinete, why can't god be?
But science doesn't say that. Science currently says that the universe is finite, and it started with the big bang. Besides, IF the universe was infinite, then god is unnecessary as he wouldn't be required to create the universe.

If the theory say it just appeared without needing anything, why god has to have a creator?
Because the premise under which god is introduced into the equation is that everything has to have a creator. And the people who make the premise do not know who created the universe, so they insert god(one of whose properties is that of a creator) as the answer.

As you say the logic can take you so much, and the to prove that something was infinite is probably impossible you're all objectivity to scientific methods boils down to believing just like people choose to believe in god.
The reasons for believing is very different. It's not the same thing.
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
74,967
Scientists have estimated 17 billion earth sized planets in habitable zones in our galaxy. But no intelligent life has been found. I think this is a sign.
We don't have the technology to directly image any of these planets yet, not even the closest ones, or even to determine what their atmospheres are composed of. We can only detect reflected light from water on the very closest planets.

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Sounds like it's not only the theists waiting for a Messiah. :)

PS: There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Lucy is a fraud.

In any case - start to believe in a power higher than matter (the very existence of which is scientifically under threat)
That's hilarious.

TBH I find evolution doubting as the worst pro-God argument in existence. It's actually quite mind-numbing.

PS: There's a lot of evidence to suggest God is a fraud.
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,640
Oh and nothing is everything :D
I'm gonna call you a fuckin' idiot if you're gonna make statements like that.

The thing is there are most likely only two possibilites, infinite or poping out of nothing. And if one can believe about those through scientific methods, which won't prove 100% any of those possibilities you will have to do a leap of faith, just like you would have to do with god. In the end both sides are the same in terms of belief, both have to do a leap of faith.
FFS Raz, science is not into the business of absolutes. There is no 100% proof. A leap of faith is reckless. It's a fuckin' gamble. It's the result of someone's stubborn desire to know everything with full complete certainty, which is impossible. The concept of a god is just fantasy. An all-knowing entity who created everything? Bullshit! All of it! Just because our mind conceived of something, doesn't make it true. Taking leaps of faith or having utmost faith in your idea will not make it true. Worshipping, chanting mantras and verses will not make it true. Hoping will not make it true. Wishful thinking will not make it true. Altering its definitions will not make it true. So stop behaving like a fuckin' jackass and stop asserting god as the fuckin' answer!
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
But science doesn't say that. Science currently says that the universe is finite, and it started with the big bang. Besides, IF the universe was infinite, then god is unnecessary as he wouldn't be required to create the universe.

Because the premise under which god is introduced into the equation is that everything has to have a creator. And the people who make the premise do not know who created the universe, so they insert god(one of whose properties is that of a creator) as the answer.

The reasons for believing is very different. It's not the same thing.
Well if you think about string theories and whole membrane bangs that supposedly creates big bangs or multi verses you could think start to think that it's infinate.

about the creation thing, I don't know, I really don't, though I certainly don't think that some dude snapt his thingers and magic happened.

What I think is, is that god is part of the universe, wether it be finite or infinite, weather it's part of the bigger picture or it's just what it is, i think he is in everythin and everyone, be it christian, muslim or a rock by the road. Why do I think like this? well I just do, I do so because of own personal expirience and what I feel and see around me.

Though the reasons for believing the scientific theory and god are the same, if you have to do the leap of faith and just believe what you cannot test or see they become the same.

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I'm gonna call you a fuckin' idiot if you're gonna make statements like that.
Let's assume that there isn't anything, just nothing. Wouldn't that make it everything?

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FFS Raz, science is not into the business of absolutes. There is no 100% proof. A leap of faith is reckless. It's a fuckin' gamble. It's the result of someone's stubborn desire to know everything with full complete certainty, which is impossible. The concept of a god is just fantasy. An all-knowing entity who created everything? Bullshit! All of it! Just because our mind conceived of something, doesn't make it true. Taking leaps of faith or having utmost faith in your idea will not make it true. Worshipping, chanting mantras and verses will not make it true. Hoping will not make it true. Wishful thinking will not make it true. Altering its definitions will not make it true. So stop behaving like a fuckin' jackass and stop asserting god as the fuckin' answer!
Chill :D You don't need to be a fanatic if you choose to take that leap of faith and say I know it all now. But weather you like it or not, science is very similar to belief in god in that aspect that you have to do leaps of faith there too.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
Take your pseudo-intellectual bullshit and stick it up your ass where it belongs.
Oh it's not intelectual at all. I just found that god and material world isn't the same and are two different worlds, and if you try to search for god using material worlds methods you won't find him.
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,640
Oh it's not intelectual at all. I just found that god and material isn't the same, and two different worlds, and if you try to search for god using material worlds methods you won't find him.
Didn't you listen to me, you little piece of shit? I told you to fuck off!

EDIT: Oh wait, of course you didn't listen to me. You'll simply assert god even if one day scientists prove that there is no god. Seriously, just fuck off!
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
Didn't you listen to me, you little piece of shit? I told you to fuck off!

EDIT: Oh wait, of course you didn't listen to me. You'll simply assert god even if one day scientists prove that there is no god. Seriously, just fuck off!
Leave a messege when that day comes.

Funny thing you would only believe in him if he came down flying down from the sky on his pink unicorn specialy for you into your room. Good luck with that.

Choose a side at least.
 

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