Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (32 Viewers)

[Quetzalcoatl]

Is there anything God can do that doesn't affect free will, directly or indirectly?

 

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[ALC]

Well yes because the reality is those things only exist on this planet because of human greed , avarice and selfishness. Those decisions are made with free will and the decisions to allow it to continue are others free will who look away

Come on now man, what does drought, famine, and disease have to do with human selfishness? A lot of them are a result of natural disasters.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Come on now man, what does drought, famine, and disease have to do with human selfishness? A lot of them are a result of natural disasters.

What are you talking about bro? Most of those above are from humans. Ethiopia starvation is from human greed. Droughts globally are from human abuses of our resources and famine don't get me started.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Is there anything God can do that doesn't affect free will, directly or indirectly?

Yes of course. When you pray for patience and understanding for instance that doesn't affect your free will

 

[ALC]

Ok, what about natural disasters then? Tsunamis and hurricanes. Why would God create them and target poor people?

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

No he doesn't. The ability to procreate is ours. The choice to procreate when one is in that situation is that persons free will. He can not intervene with free will. So if a mother and father choose to selfishly bring a child into that scenario it is their free will to do so

So you're saying parents who bring a child with severe mental/physical disabilities in this world deserve it???

Not trolling, I just want to know if this is what you were trying to imply.

 

[Djabrail]

Andrea, you killing them here
You see,guys, believers have all the answers

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Yes of course. When you pray for patience and understanding for instance that doesn't affect your free will

But why pray for that? If God gives it to you, or gives you the strength to earn it, that's affecting free will.

And what kind of loving father tell his child: "Oh, I'm sorry that you're hungry, but your brother had your eggs this morning. Let's just hope he doesn't eat it again tomorrow or you'll have no breakfast for two days in a row! That'd suck lol. Love you!"?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

But why pray for that? If God gives it to you, or gives you the strength to earn it, that's affecting free will.

And what kind of loving father tell his child: "Oh, I'm sorry that you're hungry, but your brother had your eggs this morning. Let's just hope he doesn't eat it again tomorrow or you'll have no breakfast for two days in a row! That'd suck lol. Love you!"?

Really that's how you see it? Pretty jaded. I pray for patience all the time and understanding. I pray for the ability to see his will and not mine. I pray that he places me in the best positions to help my brethren and be his instrument

 

[AndreaCristiano]

So you're saying parents who bring a child with severe mental/physical disabilities in this world deserve it???

Not trolling, I just want to know if this is what you were trying to imply.

Whoa that's how you look at disabilities? My cousin is autistic and he is a blessing his parents wouldn't trade him for anything.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Ok, what about natural disasters then? Tsunamis and hurricanes. Why would God create them and target poor people?

He doesn't target anyone and that's silly to even think. People continuously live by the Mississippi yet there houses constantly flood that isn't God targeting them its then living where those things happen. Same as tornado alley as so on

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I pray for the ability to see his will and not mine.

You pray that he alters your free will?

I pray that he places me in the best positions to help my brethren and be his instrument

But why do you need to pray for that? Do it with your own free will. And if he can do it for you, and it's not your own will, then why doesn't he do it so that his beloved children don't suffer so much?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

You pray that he alters your free will?
But why do you need to pray for that? Do it with your own free will. And if he can do it for you, and it's not your own will, then why doesn't he do it so that his beloved children don't suffer so much?

Not alter it that he shows me his path so that my free will won't cloud that. Also I pray for it because I know I have those things but selfishness and greed , lust and power are stronger and easier to give into

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Not alter it that he shows me his path so that my free will won't cloud that. Also I pray for it because I know I have those things but selfishness and greed , lust and power are stronger and easier to give into

Has God ever shown his you path? Isn't it simply to love your neighbours (as well as the other rules/commandments)? Everyone that's a believer knows that's what he's supposed to do. And if they know that, but the situation is getting worse and worse for the poor, isn't there a time where enough is enough and God realises we're not going to help them and he steps in to save them?

It's easy to say God loves you, sitting in the comfort of your air conditioned home, eating 3 meals a day, but look at it from the perspective of a Somalian mother of 5 starving children. Did she ever have a chance in life?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Has God ever shown his you path? Isn't it simply to love your neighbours (as well as the other rules/commandments)? Everyone that's a believer knows that's what he's supposed to do. And if they know that, but the situation is getting worse and worse for the poor, isn't there a time where enough is enough and God realises we're not going to help them and he steps in to save them?

It's easy to say God loves you, sitting in the comfort of your air conditioned home, eating 3 meals a day, but look at it from the perspective of a Somalian mother of 5 starving children. Did she ever have a chance in life?

My parents especially my mother was dirt poor my mom is one of 8 and my grandfather had to come to America and live here while sending money over to give them the little they had. My grandfather died at 44 my noona had to raise all 8 from little children. They ate once or twice a day and they rarely had meat or fish unless it was a holiday. There toys were sticks wrapped in rags they shared clothes and shoes. Yet not only did they never loose the faith they got themselves out of that by the grace of God My family knows struggle and poverty so please do not patronize. Yes God has shown me his will many a time even in the littlest things

 

[Fred]

The way you're looking at it, the world is the be all end all. While to religious people, the world is just a test for whats more important, which is the hereafter. Thats why I don't see much use of discussing these different aspects of religion with atheists, because our beliefs and your arguments are based on different platforms. If you take out the herafter from the equation, most of what you're saying about the world being an unfair place is absolutely true.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

FFS, stop being a frickin' victim. I was not patronising you.

You sure do have a plaster for every wound. But that's not quite the same as the situation I was talking about. Not having meat or fish is not the same as not having potable water and not eating for weeks, and not having the chance to migrate.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

The way you're looking at it, the world is the be all end all. While to religious people, the world is just a test for whats more important, which is the hereafter. Thats why I don't see much use of discussing these different aspects of religion with atheists, because our beliefs and your arguments are based on different platforms. If you take out the herafter from the equation, most of what you're saying about the world being an unfair place is absolutely true.

This is very true

 

[AndreaCristiano]

FFS, stop being a frickin' victim. I was not patronising you.

You sure do have a plaster for every wound. But that's not quite the same as the situation I was talking about. Not having meat or fish is not the same as not having potable water and not eating for weeks, and not having the chance to migrate.

Question if your premise is correct why I it that almost all poor have more faith than those who have more

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

The way you're looking at it, the world is the be all end all. While to religious people, the world is just a test for whats more important, which is the hereafter. Thats why I don't see much use of discussing these different aspects of religion with atheists, because our beliefs and your arguments are based on different platforms. If you take out the herafter from the equation, most of what you're saying about the world being an unfair place is absolutely true.

After life or not, there is this physical world that everyone has to pass through first. Eternal damnation is surely not a nice place, but some people are born into and spend their whole lives in hell.

---------- Post added 21.07.2012 at 20:29 ----------

Question if your premise is correct why I it that almost all poor have more faith than those who have more

1) Because they need some kind of hope to cling on to.
2) Because they're mostly uneducated.
3) I'm sure the real poor (like the examples I used), don't really have time for God.

Btw, you don't need to quote every pro-God post with "agreed" or "very true", because it's a given. It could say, "God is real because 345678," and you would say you agree.