Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (44 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

all i have to say is that i never, EVER, ridicule a person.

I reserve the right to ridicule a belief that is.....well, ridiculous.

That said, this is the best simple words description of Christianity i have ever seen.

(and funniest at that too) ....

 

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[Azzurri7]

Listen.....

Del Piero scored a goal against Palermo 2 weeks ago.
Channel4 informs about it, Goal.com informs about it, you wrote about that here, gazzetta wrote about it.

After 2 300 years someone says prove it that Del Piero scored a goal against Palermo. If it's a historic fact, prove it.
Somehow all the videos of this goal are lost, but they find the channel4 article, the goal.com article and they find your post about that goal.
The ones who will use the channel4 article as their source will say that it was a nice free kick goal. Those who will use your post will say that it was the most beautiful goal ever. There will be some disagreements about the way he scored the goal but they will know that Del Piero scored that goal.

Alen from the year 4 308 will say that there are contemporary sources who inform us about the goal and there is no reason for them to lie, while someone will ask "why wouldn't they lie".

They all wrote this independent from eachother. They saw it, or they heard it from someone who saw it and they wrote about it.

That's exactly the case with Alexander killing Cleitos.

Good point and I like the example you gave. Seriously.

When I read your first two lines, I was like, eh easy, VIDEO's, but when you gave the option of not having a video then I got somehow stuck.


Back to the point....like I said, I don't really think they were lairs, but again, an innocent question, is there any possibility that these men lied? and came up with that story? I believe the answer is yes.

But the % of people believing this story since (according to you) they almost had the same story of what happened to Alexander, will be high. So I can't really complain and keep moaning about this.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Then the mod should do it.

Waste of space.

Ahhh, heard worse.

 

[Il Re]

It is. That's why you can't 100% exclude neither of them and say they didn't happen. You can easily find many mistakes in the bible but there are things that you can't prove 100% and say they happend/didn't happen.
That's why the debate is still going on. It would have been finished long time ago if these things coul have been proven.


Logic and sanity will decide what will you accept as true / not true.

well, i'm going to chose to believe jesus was a predator, makes the whole religeon thing more interesting

 

[rounder]

Oooh, "admittedly" you just misused the word fact, thats all? I mean its totally ok to totally bastardize the word to your utterly stupid convenience? So sorry I bothered to correct you.

HEHEH. Have all the pleasure you want in correcting me. Man will never better himself unless he learns from his mistakes. I sincerely thank you, no joke. This may seem unexpected to you, but I should be happy that I have learned something, I will have a much more precise selection of words next time.

I'll send you a cookie tommorow for your efforts.

1) so you agree that if i could think of improvements, i would be more intelligent than god?

2) science works on premises. There is always IF. Science does not present facts as absolutes, as religion does. Certainty does not exist. Just probability.

3) in that case yes. If someone, acting in self interest, broke the golden rule and tried to kill me, my instincts will take over and i will defend myself. Self defense is moral action that is appropriate in that case. The person lacking morals is the one trying to kill me.

Don't cherry pick. I made 7 points replying on 7 points you made in your post.

I'll reply to the other 4 shortly.

1) No, that's not what I said. God did not intend for us to be perfect.. We can all think of a million ways to better ourselves but I dare you, in fact, I dare any scientist on earth to create something that could even be in the same level as the human body in terms of intelligence. We are the most intelligent design on earth, we will never be able to create something that has emotions, thinks freely, creates, lives. Only divine power can do that.

2) There are many things Science cannot prove. It can only prove what is tangible to us.

3) What about that person that attacked you? Why did he attack you in the first place? He wasn't defending himself, you didn't inflict any harm on him. This suggests that he lacked morals and was only living naturally and instictively, free from morals.

 

[Alen]

Sorry Alen, but thats not convincing.... I don't know about the exact story you're talking about, you're much more informed as this is your profession, but just like I don't believe in simple things written in a Religious books, I don't really believe that each one went on a different direction and each one wrote the same story....could be true again... but personally I don't think it's wise to convince someone about something that took place +2300 years ago.



Thought so. But had to write something.

Of course. I wasn't trying to prove that it happened for sure, no-one can do it today.

 

[*aca*]

re mods closing the thread ...

It could/would bring peace to the community.

The fact is, you are all joined here as fans of Juve (i cant see why, but thats another story )

Through these kind of discussion, as heated as they are, you can see that ...well, we are all the same, from wherever we come from. We can find the things that we can relate to as homo-sapien and take it from there. You cant build the unity if you dont expose and deal with differences

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

I dare you, in fact, I dare any scientist on earth to create something that could even be in the same level as the human body in terms of intelligence.

I'll give you two:

1) Every other living organism on the planet.
2) The Atom Bomb

 

[bianconero]

Ahhh, heard worse.

You try to hard.

Hey, but it will keep your fan club happy.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

You try to hard.

Hey, but it will keep your fan club happy.

too

 

[bianconero]

re mods closing the thread ...

It could/would bring peace to the community.

The fact is, you are all joined here as fans of Juve (i cant see why, but thats another story )

Through these kind of discussion, as heated as they are, you can see that ...well, we are all the same, from wherever we come from. We can find the things that we can relate to as homo-sapien and take it from there. You cant build the unity if you dont expose and deal with differences

How depressing: I pray after reading through much of the last few pages there is a god, because the thought of there not being one is unbarable.

 

[rounder]

True aca.

Religion is not based on logic, this is why atheists ridicule it. The funny thing is, most of them have never read the bible, have never bothered to witness the thousands of miracles that happen every single day. When you view anything with the utmost of skepticism, you aren't giving it a chance.

It's weird how Atheists are the minority in the world yet they always seem to be the dominant kind in internet forums. Why is that? Are all atheists computer geeks? :smile:

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

True aca.

Religion is not based on logic, this is why atheists ridicule it. The funny thing is, most of them have never read the bible, have never bothered to witness the thousands of miracles that happen every single day. When you view anything with the utmost of skepticism, you aren't giving it a chance.

It's weird how Atheists are the minority in the world yet they always seem to be the dominant kind in internet forums. Why is that? Are all atheists computer geeks? :smile:

Well, i am an atheist, but I have read at least 3 or 4 holy books in my day. But I can honestly say I've never seen a miracle that science couldn't prove.

 

[bianconero]

too

Never doubted that would happen.

Two obvious

 

[*aca*]

I'll reply to the other 4 shortly.

1) No, that's not what I said. God did not intend for us to be perfect.. We can all think of a million ways to better ourselves but I dare you, in fact, I dare any scientist on earth to create something that could even be in the same level as the human body in terms of intelligence. We are the most intelligent design on earth, we will never be able to create something that has emotions, thinks freely, creates, lives. Only divine power can do that.

2) There are many things Science cannot prove. It can only prove what is tangible to us.

3) What about that person that attacked you? Why did he attack you in the first place? He wasn't defending himself, you didn't inflict any harm on him. This suggests that he lacked morals and was only living naturally and instictively, free from morals.

1) how do you know what god intended? You said at the begining of our little discussion that atheists come out as egoistic. now you are claiming to know the mind of God?

we already have computers that can beat chess players, and not any chess players but the best ones we have. Never say never. Long time ago none would think that going to the moon was possible. Guess what - we did it. I will not restrict the power of human mind. What we can not do today, we'll do tomorrow.

2) what else is there but things that are tangible to us? If god is undetectable and leaves no trace of his activities in this world, what difference does god make to our life?

3) that someone tried to kill me is the evidence that we all strive to survive and better our chances of survival. Nature is not perfect, nature is indifferent. You will good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. He/she tried to kill me because he/she thought that there is a chance of getting away from it and benefiting in some way from it. If he manages, he improves his/hers chances of survival and continuing his/hers genes line. If they manage without being caught, good for them. If they dont and they get caught, they will be punished for theiir deed. We are social animals and we look, to a certain extent, fto protect our peers. Morals are creation of our evolution. This does not mean that we are not animals.

 

[rounder]

I'll give you two:

1) Every other living organism on the planet.
2) The Atom Bomb

Good one dumbass.

1) Are you sure other living organisms are created by scientists?

2) The Atomic Bomb? You think that is more complex than the human body? I guess I should stop taking you seriously from now on.

 

[bianconero]

Well, i am an atheist, but I have read at least 3 or 4 holy books in my day. But I can honestly say I've never seen a miracle that science couldn't prove.

Prove?

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

I'll give you two:

1) Every other living organism on the planet.
2) The Atom Bomb

where is the original post? give me 14.9 Billion years and I will do it, it wouldn't be hard either, a lot of sitting a waiting and making sure there are less than adequate resources

 

[bianconero]

Good one dumbass.

1) Are you sure other living organisms are created by scientists?

2) The Atomic Bomb? You think that is more complex than the human body? I guess I should stop taking you seriously from now on.

You took him seriously!

 

[*aca*]

True aca.

Religion is not based on logic, this is why atheists ridicule it. The funny thing is, most of them have never read the bible, have never bothered to witness the thousands of miracles that happen every single day. When you view anything with the utmost of skepticism, you aren't giving it a chance.

It's weird how Atheists are the minority in the world yet they always seem to be the dominant kind in internet forums. Why is that? Are all atheists computer geeks? :smile:

not true. Most of the atheist i met, and i hang around many atheist places on the web, know their bible/kouran much better than most of the theist. The difference is that they examine stuff written in holly books the same way they examine any other claim. Religion does not have a special right by default to be excluded from critical examination.

Try being openly an atheist in saudi arabia, afghanistan or anywhere in middle east. Try being openly an atheist in middle USA. The only place where atheists can come out and say it so is on internet that provides for certain level of anonymity. It was till recently that atheists were not allowed to be witnesses in court in the USA. They were shunned and burned at stake for making their claims.

And i take calling me a computer geek a personal offense

Thats Martin, for goodnes sake