++ [ originally posted by MISS DUBAI ] ++
:irritate:yeah,i can see that u r not talkin about anyone but u
:irritate:yeah,i can see that u r not talkin about anyone but u
i admit!!!
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Do you believe in God (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter mikhail
- Start date
i'm proud for being selfish... :thumb:
i admit!!!
i admit!!!
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I'm sorry, to disagree so completely, but I don't follow that reasoning at all. If God controls everything in minute detail, what has evil done to stop him from granting a little lee-way to that theoretical toddler we were talking about?
Actually, this is quite interesting, because Islam and Christianity are essentially two branches of the same religion. The God is the same, but the human interpretations are slightly differant.
Fair enough. My arguement was based more arround your assumption (or rather what I thought was an assumption on your part) that it is the Word of God. The thing is, if you start debating the relative validity of the various religions, you have to start from a point of equality - you have to grant their central teachings equal consideration. Not equal validity, mind you, because that's self-contradictory.
I understand. The difficulty exist for all of us, which is why the geographic locaton of followers of each religion is so stable.
It's far from selfish, maybe just lazy. If you're happy with your religion, and not stupid about dealing with other religions, that's OK with me. :thumb:
How'd those exams go?
Actually, this is quite interesting, because Islam and Christianity are essentially two branches of the same religion. The God is the same, but the human interpretations are slightly differant.
Fair enough. My arguement was based more arround your assumption (or rather what I thought was an assumption on your part) that it is the Word of God. The thing is, if you start debating the relative validity of the various religions, you have to start from a point of equality - you have to grant their central teachings equal consideration. Not equal validity, mind you, because that's self-contradictory.
I understand. The difficulty exist for all of us, which is why the geographic locaton of followers of each religion is so stable.
It's far from selfish, maybe just lazy.
If you're happy with your religion, and not stupid about dealing with other religions, that's OK with me. :thumb:How'd those exams go?
That's really interesting. It seems that you've just ripped the moral system out of your religion, and continue to use that regardless of your belief in Budda. That is maybe the most positive thing religions do - they define moral standards for us, that many people would set aside if they weren't so hard-wired into our cultures now. That's a very positive influence on society.
I also like the sound of that philosophy. I sometimes wonder at the attitude of some Christians towards bad times. They seem to believe that you just pray to God and he'll sort it out. It's counter-intuitive for me.
That said, I'd probably pray if I knew I was going to die. Such is the level that religion is ingrained on us.
The thing is, the Christian God is at least said to have claimed to be God (or rather the Christian saviour is said to have claimed to be the Son of God), and so if he wasn't God, but as you say an influential philosopher, he was more in line with a cult leader than a philosopher.
I'm too unfamiliar with the Old Testiment to remember the supposed origins of the early teachings of the Jewish faith (and consequently the Christian and Islamic ones too), but I think they were basically passed down by word of mouth for generations until they were eventually written down.
I also like the sound of that philosophy. I sometimes wonder at the attitude of some Christians towards bad times. They seem to believe that you just pray to God and he'll sort it out. It's counter-intuitive for me.
That said, I'd probably pray if I knew I was going to die. Such is the level that religion is ingrained on us.
The thing is, the Christian God is at least said to have claimed to be God (or rather the Christian saviour is said to have claimed to be the Son of God), and so if he wasn't God, but as you say an influential philosopher, he was more in line with a cult leader than a philosopher.
I'm too unfamiliar with the Old Testiment to remember the supposed origins of the early teachings of the Jewish faith (and consequently the Christian and Islamic ones too), but I think they were basically passed down by word of mouth for generations until they were eventually written down.
Evil hasn't done anything to stop Him.
"How could a good God allow this to happen? How can a God of love allow killers to kill, terrorists to terrorize, and the wicked to escape without a trace?"
God is omnipotent -- infinitely powerful -- and thus can present tragedies. We can't speak of God’s decree in a way that would imply Him to be the author of evil, and we can't fall back to speak of His mere permission, as if this allows a denial of His sovereignty and active will.
Romans 8:28: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose."
Humans can't know the full truth. We dare not speak on God’s behalf to explain why He allows acts of evil to happen at a given time to specific people. Yet, at the same time, we dare not be silent when we should testify to the God of righteousness and love and justice who rules over all in omnipotence. Humility requires that we affirm all that the Bible teaches, and go no further. There is much we do not understand. As Charles Spurgeon explained, "when we cannot trace God’s hand, we must simply trust His heart."
I know that many would consider these answers to be unsatisfactory. Theologians have been debating the this puzzle for centuries, without making a great deal of progress :down:
Perhaps it could be said that tragedy happens for a greater good, strange as it sounds.
At the National Cathedral four days after the WTS and Pentagon tragedies, the Reverend Doctor Billy Graham said that many times, he has asked the question, 'Why does God permit evil?'...he said he has never answered that question fully to his satisfaction. Later, he said that America needs spiritual renewal and revival. He believed that the terrorist attack brought the country to the start of that process.
When a nation becomes great and powerful by God’s Permission, as America has... and that nation then has a spiritual lapse and begins to sink into moral decline, God can then seizes that nation with distress and affliction, that it might humble itself. Only in humility can the proud and the powerful heed the guidance of God. Hopefully, God used this tragedy to bring a great nation to Himself.
Maybe God caused the tragedy, and worked through the terrorists to accomplish mass murder. But God did this in order to create a greater good: to cause the entire nation to come close to God.
"How could a good God allow this to happen? How can a God of love allow killers to kill, terrorists to terrorize, and the wicked to escape without a trace?"
God is omnipotent -- infinitely powerful -- and thus can present tragedies. We can't speak of God’s decree in a way that would imply Him to be the author of evil, and we can't fall back to speak of His mere permission, as if this allows a denial of His sovereignty and active will.
Romans 8:28: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose."
Humans can't know the full truth. We dare not speak on God’s behalf to explain why He allows acts of evil to happen at a given time to specific people. Yet, at the same time, we dare not be silent when we should testify to the God of righteousness and love and justice who rules over all in omnipotence. Humility requires that we affirm all that the Bible teaches, and go no further. There is much we do not understand. As Charles Spurgeon explained, "when we cannot trace God’s hand, we must simply trust His heart."
I know that many would consider these answers to be unsatisfactory. Theologians have been debating the this puzzle for centuries, without making a great deal of progress :down:
Perhaps it could be said that tragedy happens for a greater good, strange as it sounds.
At the National Cathedral four days after the WTS and Pentagon tragedies, the Reverend Doctor Billy Graham said that many times, he has asked the question, 'Why does God permit evil?'...he said he has never answered that question fully to his satisfaction. Later, he said that America needs spiritual renewal and revival. He believed that the terrorist attack brought the country to the start of that process.
When a nation becomes great and powerful by God’s Permission, as America has... and that nation then has a spiritual lapse and begins to sink into moral decline, God can then seizes that nation with distress and affliction, that it might humble itself. Only in humility can the proud and the powerful heed the guidance of God. Hopefully, God used this tragedy to bring a great nation to Himself.
Maybe God caused the tragedy, and worked through the terrorists to accomplish mass murder. But God did this in order to create a greater good: to cause the entire nation to come close to God.
Branches of the same religion? That being which, I beg your pardon?
I wouldn't say that Islam's Allah and the God of Christians are the same.
I've already given most of my views on Christianity, and since I'd like to know more about Islam, I'll try to cite what I know:
In the Quran there are 99 names for god. You will not find the word 'father' or 'love' attributed to God. God is no father in Islam, nor is He love.
In Islam the one true God, Allah, is a distant god; unknowable and unapproachable. He does not love all people, only those who do well. He is the author of evil as well as good since he predestines all things. He is not a triune God (three distinct beings)
Sin is lack of obedience to Allah. Man is sinful by act only, not by nature. Original sin is viewed as a "lapse" by Adam. Man is not really "fallen" in his sin nature; he is merely weak and forgetful. The most serious sin is that of shirk, or considering God as more than one, for example, as triune.
Allah predetermines the eternal destiny of each person, and the hope of salvation for the Muslim is based on works, although no Muslim has the absolute assurance of heaven. Islam teaches its followers to prepare for the day of judgment in which each person's good and evil works will be measured, resulting in everlasting life in heaven or in hell.
I think the main difference here is grace.
The salvation that makind so desperately needed being given as a free gift, rather than a redemption required to be earned through good works.
Naturally
Not really... Christianity's focus now seems to be shifting toward Asian nations, whereas last century most activity was based in Western Europe and North America. I know what u mean though
Yes, it puts my heart at peace knowing that I have your approval
:LOL:
I think I did okay...oh well, I'm glad it's over. 3 months of holidays!:extatic:
Thanks for asking
I wouldn't say that Islam's Allah and the God of Christians are the same.
I've already given most of my views on Christianity, and since I'd like to know more about Islam, I'll try to cite what I know:
In the Quran there are 99 names for god. You will not find the word 'father' or 'love' attributed to God. God is no father in Islam, nor is He love.
In Islam the one true God, Allah, is a distant god; unknowable and unapproachable. He does not love all people, only those who do well. He is the author of evil as well as good since he predestines all things. He is not a triune God (three distinct beings)
Sin is lack of obedience to Allah. Man is sinful by act only, not by nature. Original sin is viewed as a "lapse" by Adam. Man is not really "fallen" in his sin nature; he is merely weak and forgetful. The most serious sin is that of shirk, or considering God as more than one, for example, as triune.
Allah predetermines the eternal destiny of each person, and the hope of salvation for the Muslim is based on works, although no Muslim has the absolute assurance of heaven. Islam teaches its followers to prepare for the day of judgment in which each person's good and evil works will be measured, resulting in everlasting life in heaven or in hell.
I think the main difference here is grace.
The salvation that makind so desperately needed being given as a free gift, rather than a redemption required to be earned through good works.
Naturally
Not really... Christianity's focus now seems to be shifting toward Asian nations, whereas last century most activity was based in Western Europe and North America. I know what u mean though
++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
It's far from selfish, maybe just lazy. If you're happy with your religion, and not stupid about dealing with other religions, that's OK with me. :thumb:
It's far from selfish, maybe just lazy.
If you're happy with your religion, and not stupid about dealing with other religions, that's OK with me. :thumb:
:LOL:
I think I did okay...oh well, I'm glad it's over. 3 months of holidays!
:extatic:Thanks for asking
That's quite interesting. I have to admit that I didn't know all of that before now, and it does seem to be a fundimental shift in certain regards.
However, I would argue that while you are right that the religions differ, the God they worship is one and the same.
In the beginning there was Judaeism. They believed in God (strangely singular). They believed that God would send a saviour. Jews don't believe that Christ was that saviour, or anything else.
Christians believe that Jesus was that saviour, and shifted their theology based on his teachings. The church has further refined that over the past two millenia.
Several centuries AD, a bloke called Muhammed came and expressed his philosophies about God, claiming them devinely inspired, and so the theology of Islam was founded. Islamics believe that Jesus was a prophet, and presumably that a saviour is still to come (or maybe they dropped that idea, I don't know.
Three religions, one God. IMHO.
You're welcome. Enjoy the holidays!
However, I would argue that while you are right that the religions differ, the God they worship is one and the same.
In the beginning there was Judaeism. They believed in God (strangely singular). They believed that God would send a saviour. Jews don't believe that Christ was that saviour, or anything else.
Christians believe that Jesus was that saviour, and shifted their theology based on his teachings. The church has further refined that over the past two millenia.
Several centuries AD, a bloke called Muhammed came and expressed his philosophies about God, claiming them devinely inspired, and so the theology of Islam was founded. Islamics believe that Jesus was a prophet, and presumably that a saviour is still to come (or maybe they dropped that idea, I don't know.
Three religions, one God. IMHO.
I think I did okay...oh well, I'm glad it's over. 3 months of holidays! :extatic:
Thanks for asking
:extatic:Thanks for asking
we do not call him 'father' as God is everything His creations are not, and I do not know what you mean by he is not 'love' but I can assure you Allah is FULL of love.
a misconseption, perhaps? it does not mean Allah does not love the ones who don't obey him, Allah is Most merciful, but also Most Just.
Muslims believe we are not responsible for others' actions, only ours. Nobody is perfect and we are bound to make mistakes however Allah is Most Forgiving and Merciful.
I can assure most of you that Judaism, Christianity and Islam is very closely related.
I do not know gray what you meant by the difference is grace? I know how it may sound that Allah 'demands' of his creators, but being a Moslem myself I don't think its demanding at all and it is for my own best. I know there are questions, 'why must women cover their heads?' etc. but I myself cover my head and if anyone has questions about this I'd be happy to answer.
The problem is that many, MANY people have misconceptions in Islam. For eg, Many think Islam does not allow education for women? That is absolutely ludicrous, in fact Islam think VERY highly of Scholars.
I know its a bit off topic from what you're discussing but I just wanted to explain
a misconseption, perhaps? it does not mean Allah does not love the ones who don't obey him, Allah is Most merciful, but also Most Just.
Muslims believe we are not responsible for others' actions, only ours. Nobody is perfect and we are bound to make mistakes however Allah is Most Forgiving and Merciful.
I can assure most of you that Judaism, Christianity and Islam is very closely related.
I do not know gray what you meant by the difference is grace? I know how it may sound that Allah 'demands' of his creators, but being a Moslem myself I don't think its demanding at all and it is for my own best. I know there are questions, 'why must women cover their heads?' etc. but I myself cover my head and if anyone has questions about this I'd be happy to answer.
The problem is that many, MANY people have misconceptions in Islam. For eg, Many think Islam does not allow education for women? That is absolutely ludicrous, in fact Islam think VERY highly of Scholars.
I know its a bit off topic from what you're discussing but I just wanted to explain
You're losing this one Gary
I have heard that even the covering of wemen's heads is a cultural thing, and not in fact part of the teachings of Islam per se. Is this right?
The Americans have already stated that they don't want an Iraqi government to be Islamic. They're afraid of Islam because they don't underatand at all what it's about.
Well, I guess we already knew they were morons...
BTW, I just realised that I might have offended Serge, and presumably others. I'd just like ot qualify that with the statement that I feel that the American administration are morons, and not the general public. Though some of the general public are quite clearly exceptional to that.
I have heard that even the covering of wemen's heads is a cultural thing, and not in fact part of the teachings of Islam per se. Is this right?
The Americans have already stated that they don't want an Iraqi government to be Islamic. They're afraid of Islam because they don't underatand at all what it's about.
Well, I guess we already knew they were morons...
BTW, I just realised that I might have offended Serge, and presumably others. I'd just like ot qualify that with the statement that I feel that the American administration are morons, and not the general public. Though some of the general public are quite clearly exceptional to that.
Man You make it sound so bad, like there is no love in Islam and god god doesnt love anyone.:groan:
Ok as for the love part, All the names of god actualy shows that he is loving, (merciful, giving....etc). There is no word such as loving because it is clear from the names. And as for Father???? How can he be our father, he is our god!!! A god is closer than a father, and more loving.
And about the hate part...... I am not sure, but I think that if he hates, it would be really bad people I mean really bad.
And you shouldnt get free salvation you must earn it yourself, you dont get paid for doing nothing.
If you have questions about islam please ask and dont interpret it the way you think is right.
Ok as for the love part, All the names of god actualy shows that he is loving, (merciful, giving....etc). There is no word such as loving because it is clear from the names. And as for Father???? How can he be our father, he is our god!!! A god is closer than a father, and more loving.
And about the hate part...... I am not sure, but I think that if he hates, it would be really bad people I mean really bad.
And you shouldnt get free salvation you must earn it yourself, you dont get paid for doing nothing.
If you have questions about islam please ask and dont interpret it the way you think is right.