Did loverboy get it right? (2 Viewers)

[Azzurri7]

No Rab, Prophet's women in arabic = أم المؤمنين not نساء المؤمنين. Believing women means all Muslim women.

I'm not sure about this. I had many discussions concerning the Hijab with Sheiks and couple of them explained to me why and how they were using the Believing Women term.

Also not ony Prophet's women, but relatives.

 

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[Il Re]

I'm not sure about this. I had many discussions concerning the Hijab with Sheiks and couple of them explained to me why and how they were using the Believing Women term.

Also not ony Prophet's women, but relatives.

from my understanding, believing women = muslim women

oh you who believe = muslims

 

[Mohad]

I'm not sure about this. I had many discussions concerning the Hijab with Sheiks and couple of them explained to me why and how they were using the Believing Women term.

Also not ony Prophet's women, but relatives.

Well it's about which doctrine this Sheik follow. Also every Islamic country has a different thought. But the Hijab is a must unlike the Burqa.

 

[Alen]

But the Hijab

Do you know which dominantly muslim countries obligate the women to wear a hijab?

I know Iran does and i believe the Saudis also obligate the women to wear something on their heads. I also know that Turkey, Lebanon, Albania and Bosnia don't do that.

What about the other muslim countries?

 

[Azzurri7]

Do you know which dominantly muslim countries obligate the women to wear a hijab?

I know Iran does and i believe the Saudis also obligate the women to wear something on their heads. I also know that Turkey, Lebanon, Albania and Bosnia don't do that.

What about the other muslim countries?

I think all gulf countries except for Kuwait. Not sure though.

 

[Mohad]

Do you know which dominantly muslim countries obligate the women to wear a hijab?

I know Iran does and i believe the Saudis also obligate the women to wear something on their heads. I also know that Turkey, Lebanon, Albania and Bosnia don't do that.

What about the other muslim countries?

I live in Saudi Arabia.

In Mecca or any other Mosques women can't go inside without the Hijab.

The Islam ordered to wear the Hijab. But if she don't want to wear it then it's up to her.

 

[Fred]

You really think there's nothing at all in what we're suggesting, Fred? You think we're completely nuts?

I think you're making assumptions based on your own prejudices, i think your assumptions are baseless, i think the confidence in which you express your assumptions is laughable and arrogant and i think you haven't met or spoken to enough muslim women if any at all.

Do you know which dominantly muslim countries obligate the women to wear a hijab?

I know Iran does and i believe the Saudis also obligate the women to wear something on their heads. I also know that Turkey, Lebanon, Albania and Bosnia don't do that.

What about the other muslim countries?

As in obligate by law?

No that only happens in radical countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

It certainly doesn't happen in the UAE and it most certainly doesn't happen in Libya.

 

[Alen]

As in obligate by law?

No that only happens in radical countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Yes, by law is what i meant.
But it's good to hear that it doesn't happen in the other countries except Iran and Saudi Arabia.

P.S: Wait a little, Mohad says that it's women's choice in Arabia.

So it's only Iran?

 

[Mohad]

No man I'm talking about those other countries except Iran and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Fred]

Yes, by law is what i meant.
But it's good to hear that it doesn't happen in the other countries except Iran and Saudi Arabia.

P.S: Wait a little, Mohad says that it's women's choice in Arabia.

So it's only Iran?

Nope it isn't women's choice. Even foreign women are forced to wear the "3abaya".

 

[Martin]

I think you're making assumptions based on your own prejudices, i think your assumptions are baseless, i think the confidence in which you express your assumptions is laughable and arrogant and i think you haven't met or spoken to enough muslim women if any at all.

I see where you're coming from and that's a fair assessment.

However, I think you're being willfully dismissive of progress. There was a time when when people owned slaves and if you'd ask a slave if they felt happy they would say "yes, my master is treating me well and I have everything I need, I'm lucky to have this particular master". If you'd ask them if they'd ever contemplated freedom they would say it never entered their mind, this is simply the way the world is.

Today we don't have slaves and I think you would agree that even though a slave 2000 years ago would say that he's totally satisfied, that's not a good enough justification for slavery.

In other words: asking the person whose freedom is impeded does not give you a reliable answer. That's a simple fact of psychology. We turn whatever situation we find ourselves in into one that we accept, for the sake of our own sanity. And you're very bright so I don't understand why you're missing this. Do you think this piece of psychology is complete fiction?

 

[Fred]

I see where you're coming from and that's a fair assessment.

However, I think you're being willfully dismissive of progress. There was a time when when people owned slaves and if you'd ask a slave if they felt happy they would say "yes, my master is treating me well and I have everything I need, I'm lucky to have this particular master". If you'd ask them if they'd ever contemplated freedom they would say it never entered their mind, this is simply the way the world is.

Today we don't have slaves and I think you would agree that even though a slave 2000 years ago would say that he's totally satisfied, that's not a good enough justification for slavery.

In other words: asking the person whose freedom is impeded does not give you a reliable answer. That's a simple fact of psychology. We turn whatever situation we find ourselves in into one that we accept, for the sake of our own sanity. And you're very bright so I don't understand why you're missing this. Do you think this piece of psychology is complete fiction?

A communist would say the same of wage workers and would use this very same argument.

 

[Martin]

Even if he did, so what? Is it not true simply because someone could use it to deceive people?

 

[Fred]

He doesn't think he's deceiving people though. He really believes that if he were a communist. Take off communist, put in Martin, and there's my point.

 

[Martin]

He doesn't think he's deceiving people though. He really believes that if he were a communist. Take off communist, put in Martin, and there's my point.

This is complete nonsense. I ask whether this psychological principle is true. You don't say yes or no, instead you say "a communist would say the same thing". That doesn't answer the question.

I'm not a communist but I am a socialist and a capitalist, contrary as those may seem, and it's on those precepts that exist some of the most successful societies in the world. All of which is completely beside the point to the issue at hand.

 

[Fred]

This is complete nonsense. I ask whether this psychological principle is true. You don't say yes or no, instead you say "a communist would say the same thing". That doesn't answer the question.

I'm not a communist but I am a socialist and a capitalist, contrary as those may seem, and it's on those precepts that exist some of the most successful societies in the world. All of which is completely beside the point to the issue at hand.

I wasn't discussing social and economic systems. It was just an analogy.

If you're asking me if the psychological principle you were suggesting is true in the case of muslim women wearing hijab. My answer is, for the majority of them no.

 

[Martin]

But the point is you wouldn't know it if it were the case. I'm not saying it's undetectable, but these social struggles take a lot of effort to overcome. The only way you can actually know what someone would do, how they would use their freedom, is to give them the freedom and see what they do with it. Evidently no non-Muslim women are choosing to wear a scarf, which rather strongly undermines the premise that this is something that a free person would choose to do.

Anyway, it's my hypothesis and evidently I'm not completely alone in believing it.

 

[Fred]

But the point is you wouldn't know it if it were the case. I'm not saying it's undetectable, but these social struggles take a lot of effort to overcome. The only way you can actually know what someone would do, how they would use their freedom, is to give them the freedom and see what they do with it. Evidently no non-Muslim women are choosing to wear a scarf, which rather strongly undermines the premise that this is something that a free person would choose to do.

Anyway, it's my hypothesis and evidently I'm not completely alone in believing it.

Neither would you.

Probability suggests that i would be closer to the truth though as i have encountered and met much more muslim women than you have.

 

[Martin]

Exactly. Therefore giving you testimonies from countless Muslim women as you suggest I should be doing, I specifically say would not prove this. Which makes your claim to probability quite poorly founded also.

 

[Fred]

Which means that yet again it all ends pointlessly and in a stalemate like all other religious discussions between theists and atheists. So whats new?