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[Seven]

Sarkozy Says Burqas Aren’t Welcome In France
Posted by: Carrie Wasterlain | Filed in: News & Culture
6:00PM, Monday June 22nd 2009
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President Nicholas Sarkozy stood before the French Parliament today and proposed a ban on burqas, garments that completely cover a woman and mask her face, in France. According to The New York Times, he stated: “We cannot accept in our country women imprisoned behind bars, cut off from social life, deprived of identity. That is not our idea of maintaining the dignity of women.”

While Parliament has yet to make a final decision concerning the ban of the burqa, Sarkozy’s proposal alone has created a fair amount of uproar. Is the proposed ban a naïve and overly simplistic idea, a commendable suggestion, or just a calculated political move?

It’s hard to say. Sarkozy is taking on a controversial political issue while also championing women’s rights. What an admirable combo! But is this ban proposal really a constructive, or even feasible, idea? Islamic headscarves and other “conspicuous religious symbols” have already been banned from public schools, so maybe banning wearing head-to-toe burqas in public is the appropriate next step.

But while I’m vehemently against any form of female suppression, I’m not sure that banning burqas will have any positive effects on Muslim women. As an outsider, I see the full body scarves as oppressive and limiting; I agree with Sarkozy that they are debasing, and more of a political statement than a religious one. But I also feel that it is in the hands of the Muslim women to change (if they wish to) their own burqa destiny without pressure from either their religion or Sarkozy. Dictating a dress code, even if it seems to protect women from subservience, might not be very productive. In fact, a ban of burqa-wearing in public might result in limiting—not extending—women’s rights. Muslim women who wish to wear burqas may very well choose to stay confined to their houses—keeping themselves even more hidden from the public eye.

After giving it quite a bit of thought, I still can’t decide whether Sarkozy’s proposed ban is praiseworthy, or whether it will only further stigmatize Muslim women in France. Can you?

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What do you guys think? It's starting to become a big issue in Europe. It always was a big issue in France, because the seperation of state and Church is very strict over there, but recently it has become important in Belgium as well. Just yesterday a school in Antwerp banned clothing that would show any sign of religious affiliation, which is what some schools in Switzerland have done before and there is the famous case of the university girl in Turkey too.

As you are well aware the ECHR bases its opinions on several conditions:

- there has to be a clear rule and it has to be predictable how the rule will be applied.
- the rule has to serve a public interest.
- the rule shouldn't needlessly limit personal freedom and should not go any further than strictly necessary.

 

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[ßöмßäяðîëя]

 

[Seven]

I also urge people who don't know what the ECHR is without googling to refrain from making any sort of comment. This of course to elevate the discussion to a somewhat acceptable level.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

 

[rounder]

This is very interesting and also very hypocritical. This Sarkozi person demands freedom, liberty, basic human rights so to speak. But wouldn't that include allowing people t wear or dress however the fuck they want?

I mean, why isn't he imposing these bans on muslim males who wear religious types of clothing if he doesn't like the political message behind it all? I think it has everything to do with image and nothing to do political statements.

 

[Seven]

This is very interesting and also very hypocritical. This Sarkozi person demands freedom, liberty, basic human rights so to speak. But wouldn't that include allowing people t wear or dress however the fuck they want?

I mean, why isn't he imposing these bans on muslim males who wear religious types of clothing if he doesn't like the political message behind it all? I think it has everything to do with image and nothing to do political statements.

Freedom isn't infinite. Rights are bound to collide at some point and you have to make a choice. The choice here is that the freedom to dress how you want is restricted in favour of the freedom to support whatever religion you want. There are two ideas behind this:

- muslim girls might by forced to wear a burqa
- it is somewhat agressive to wear a burqa in general TBH

Also note that in most European countries you are not allowed to wear masks or completely disguise yourself, because of security reasons. The minute you're outside, you're supposed to be more or less recognisable. This law does not exist in France though IIRC.

EDIT: as for muslim males, they don't have anything that comes remotely close to a burqa.

 

[Ahmed]

aggressive? do women in burqas scare you?

 

[Seven]

aggressive? do women in burqas scare you?

I am not posting my opinion. I'm saying why the European Court of Human Rights (might) and Sarkozy (does) say burqahs aren't allowed.

As for me personally, I find them to be utterly repulsive. I cannot understand why someone would want to wear them. But that's a whole different issue than having the right to do so. If we're talking about the right to wear what you want to wear, I agree with the ECHR. Their reasoning is extremely solid.

 

[Fred]

TBH, i never understood muslim women wearing burqa's and i always thought it was a bit excessive. Wearing the Burqa is neither compulsory nor even required in Islam.

Still what Sarkozy is doing is extremely hypocritical, he's championing women rights one minute and telling them how to dress the other minute.

 

[Seven]

TBH, i never understood muslim women wearing burqa's and i always thought it was a bit excessive. Wearing the Burqa is neither compulsory nor even required in Islam.

Still what Sarkozy is doing is extremely hypocritical, he's championing women rights one minute and telling them how to dress the other minute.

That's oversimplifying it a bit. You see, Sarkozy thinks MEN say women have to wear burqas. But I do agree with you that Sarkozy doesn't make the best argument.

 

[rounder]

Freedom isn't infinite. Rights are bound to collide at some point and you have to make a choice. The choice here is that the freedom to dress how you want is restricted in favour of the freedom to support whatever religion you want. There are two ideas behind this:

- muslim girls might by forced to wear a burqa
- it is somewhat agressive to wear a burqa in general TBH

Also note that in most European countries you are not allowed to wear masks or completely disguise yourself, because of security reasons. The minute you're outside, you're supposed to be more or less recognisable. This law does not exist in France though IIRC.

EDIT: as for muslim males, they don't have anything that comes remotely close to a burqa.

- It's a choice they make, at least in most families it is. You can be a muslim and not wear the burqa, but some women choose it not because they are forced but because it's part of their tradition. Remember that arab muslim women in general have a completely different mindset from European women. They still believe that exposing one's self at the beach for example is a cultural tabboo. They don't want to do it. Whether they have this mindset because their familly and culture have been spoonfeeding it to her is not very relevant here.

The point is that these women may feel that they are betraying their culture and religion and it's not very ethical to force them into to doing this.

- Why is it aggressive?

 

[Seven]

- It's a choice they make, at least in most families it is. You can be a muslim and not wear the burqa, but some women choose it not because they are forced but because it's part of their tradition. Remember that arab muslim women in general have a completely different mindset from European women. They still believe that exposing one's self at the beach for example is a cultural tabboo. They don't want to do it. Whether they have this mindset because their familly and culture have been spoonfeeding it to her is not very relevant here.

The point is that these women may feel that they are betraying their culture and religion and it's not very ethical to force them into to doing this.

- Why is it aggressive?

- That's where some disagree.
- Because they kind of impose their religion on others. If you wear a burqah and a girl next to you is wearing a miniskirt, you might as well call her a whore.

 

[Fred]

That's oversimplifying it a bit. You see, Sarkozy thinks MEN say women have to wear burqas. But I do agree with you that Sarkozy doesn't make the best argument.

That is the case sometimes. But most women make their own choices regarding Burqa's. At least most of the women i know.

 

[Osman]

I dont care about Sarkozy or whatever, and will be very brief, Hijabs (covering the hair)

Burqa's (see what Fred said for why)

 

[Seven]

That is the case sometimes. But most women make their own choices regarding Burqa's. At least most of the women i know.

I think most problems are in school though. Girls in burqahs tend to have a thing for calling other girls whores. You might say it ain't so, but in all fairness, it very often is. Which is why a school in Belgium has gone as far as saying that even basic veils are not allowed anymore.

 

[Seven]

I dont care about Sarkozy or whatever, and will be very brief, Hijabs (covering the hair)

Burqa's (see what Fred said for why)

I don't have a particular problem with hijabs personally, but I do think that people who work for the goverment and are in touch with the public should not be allowed to wear them. State and Church have to be separated and that means government officials cannot wear religious symbols.

Obviously only a minority of people are put in that position, so I don't see it as big restriction of their freedom. They can even still work for the governement, just as long as they don't do jobs in which they have to communicate with the public.

 

[Fred]

I completely agree Osman. They are excessive and way too radical. But you shouldn't be able to tell people what to wear.

I also kind of understand when Seven says that they come of as a bit aggressive.

 

[rounder]

- That's where some disagree.
- Because they kind of impose their religion on others. If you wear a burqah and a girl next to you is wearing a miniskirt, you might as well call her a whore.

- That's why Sarkozi's statements are not very convincing for me. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that in this day and age women still wear burqas. But I do however recognize that this is just my personal opinion which I cannot really substantiate with a very convincing reason. I think things like this should be made illegal only if it causes harm to people, in this case, I really don't see how clothing would do such a thing.

- That's not very convincing either. For example, people who have tattoos that depict images of the devil may be deeply offensive to certain people. Does that mean we should ban these tattoos? If not, then why should we ban burqas?

 

[Osman]

Which is why a school in Belgium has gone as far as saying that even basic veils are not allowed anymore.

This is a big no no, and shouldnt fly even for a second. Though weirdly enough biggiest crooks for this are the extreme ataturk worshipping secularists Turks. Disallowing hijabs in Unis and several work places etc.

 

[Fred]

I think most problems are in school though. Girls in burqahs tend to have a thing for calling other girls whores. You might say it ain't so, but in all fairness, it very often is. Which is why a school in Belgium has gone as far as saying that even basic veils are not allowed anymore.

No i won't say it ain't so. Because thats the experience i've had with most of the burqa wearing girls too. But still, it doesn't give anyone a right to tell them what to wear.