Controversy Thread part 2: Religious discussion (7 Viewers)

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++


Yes but this is what I dont understand. Isnt God fair? For many people being part of a religion simply hasnt been an option. If you are taught by your parents to not worship then you wont do it etc, Is it fair to then be judged as someone who rejected God in your life? I cant see a loving God doing that. What about all the starving kids in africa who have never heard of God? I was hoping someone would quote me somethings for their respective religious books that might explain it, or atleast explain to me what way your religion deals with this. Surely its to big to be overlooked.

It's not God who making your decisions. God blessed all of us with a brain, eyes, and senses..etc. use them to find the right path. Those of us who become mentally ill or whom are born that way won't be punished in life or afterlife for whatever they do. As for those of us who had the misfortune of being born into a family who dont believe in God or a family who's isolated from the world (like North Korea maybe..) then it's a bit tougher for them, but nontheless, God gave you sense to seek the truth. As a Muslim, and I'm sure in christianity too, it's our duty to spread the word of God so people can make a choice. Again, nobody's forced...

In Islam, promises of paradise for making good deeds and warnings of hellfire for sinning are in abondance, but it's not up to us creations to even say who's going to heaven or hell. We are at ease knowing that God'll be just and he won't break his promise. For the people who have been isolated, it's our duty to do our best to spread the word, but if we can't make it, then God only knows. But, as mentioned many many times in the Quraan, God is all forgiving.

The only person from any religion who has answered this to something I can accept was from a Mormon (dont disregard because of its 'bad' name, its a christian religion that follows all christian principles, except it has more). That person told me that the purpose of life was to come to earth to get a body. Before we came here we were only spirit. Body and spirit are combined on earth and though you leave your body on death. You are reunited with your body in heaven.

no offense, but do you really really see that answer as satisfying? Does that really explain the "purpose of life."
if you mean "life" as our creation, then what you said above still doesn't explain why the spirits and earth was created.
If you mean "life" as our time on earth, then do you really see "uniting body and spirit" as a purpose of life? I dont really see how uniting makes up a purpose.

The marriage in religions is another issue. What kind of religion forces someone to join that just to get married? And why is it doing that? Whats the point? Does your religion consider marriage as a marriage on earth? Or a marriage for eternity? If its a marriage for eternity then what happens if you die while married but are not happy with your partner? Does divorce even erase the eternal link?

With all due respect to Salihah, her words weren't accurate.
I explained in another post above about religion.

You can't force your wife to convert. you can't force anyone to convert for that matter. and the verse in the Quraan is clear: 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in religion... "

This passage from an article might be interesting to read... It shows the difference between Islam's image now and back when all it's principles were practiced. Not only is Islam's image bad now, but the many people in the muslim world now mix religion with culture morals and ethics that contradict to Islamic teachings.


The Byzantine historians record of the Muslims an almost miraculous degree of religious toleration during this period, for Muslims were deeply immersed in the Quranic spirit of tolerance which declares, "There shall be no compulsion in religion" <Quran, The Cow 2:256>. It is almost impossible for the modern mind to comprehend some of the actions of the early Companions. When the Caliph 'Umar heard that a church had been demolished by a group of Muslims in the distant Syrian mountains and a mosque erected in its stead, he grew angry and issued an order for the demolition of the mosque, and commanded the renegade tribesmen responsible to rebuild the church with their own hands. The Christian clergy wrote in astonishment of the new spirit of brotherhood which filled the East after the retreat of the Byzantines, who were long resented for their extortionate taxes and religious intolerance towards the Monophysite and Arian churches. The Muslim world became a place of refuge for all manner of religious dissent in Europe: Arians, Cathars, Jews. In the same vein, that the Mongol/Tartar invaders of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries ended up adopting the religion of the conquered, attests to the natural appeal and strength of Islam.

Thoughtout my life ive always been a protestant i guess. But to be honest I dont think this religious teaching is complete. There is just to much and too many things that are missing or are not explained. There isnt hardly any devotion needed to be given to God, there isnt that many rules you must abide by.
[
And until ive had this discussion online (ive never actually discussed this with Islam etc) I consider the Mormon religion to be the only one that can answer every single question. Does this mean something?

Then i encourage you to continue looking for your answers.... Give many religions a glance with an open mind and find the one that makes sense.

 

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[River]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


It's not God who making your decisions. God blessed all of us with a brain, eyes, and senses..etc. use them to find the right path. Those of us who become mentally ill or whom are born that way won't be punished in life or afterlife for whatever they do. As for those of us who had the misfortune of being born into a family who dont believe in God or a family who's isolated from the world (like North Korea maybe..) then it's a bit tougher for them, but nontheless, God gave you sense to seek the truth. As a Muslim, and I'm sure in christianity too, it's our duty to spread the word of God so people can make a choice. Again, nobody's forced...

In Islam, promises of paradise for making good deeds and warnings of hellfire for sinning are in abondance, but it's not up to us creations to even say who's going to heaven or hell. We are at ease knowing that God'll be just and he won't break his promise. For the people who have been isolated, it's our duty to do our best to spread the word, but if we can't make it, then God only knows. But, as mentioned many many times in the Quraan, God is all forgiving.

It dosent answer it clear cut, but helps, thanks. In Islam does it mention anything about beginning or accepting the religion after life? I believe some religions claim people who havent had the chance in life, will afterwards.

no offense, but do you really really see that answer as satisfying? Does that really explain the "purpose of life."
if you mean "life" as our creation, then what you said above still doesn't explain why the spirits and earth was created.
If you mean "life" as our time on earth, then do you really see "uniting body and spirit" as a purpose of life? I dont really see how uniting makes up a purpose.

No it isnt completely satisfying, nor did I say I actually believed that. Only that it seems to be the only religion that considers the purpose of life here.
And whats so hard to believe about that? Before we came to earth we existed only as a spirit, right? I meant life as in everything. United body and spirit isnt exactly it, its more getting a body, becoming a physical being. That was also in the simplest terms. The mormon belief about life is that, the getting a body to become physical and also the 'free agency' thing, deciding what we want to do, accepting religion and making decisions upon which we will be judged. They believe that everyone on earth has already chosen to follow christ before coming here, those who decided to follow satan were cast out. I believe this is also the same or similiar in christian religion.

Im not claiming this to be the right thing, only its the only religion that has answered this question. I was hoping Islam and christians etc would explain what they are taught. I am christian but never came across it.

With all due respect to Salihah, her words weren't accurate.
I explained in another post above about religion.

You can't force your wife to convert. you can't force anyone to convert for that matter. and the verse in the Quraan is clear: 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in religion... "

This passage from an article might be interesting to read... It shows the difference between Islam's image now and back when all it's principles were practiced. Not only is Islam's image bad now, but the many people in the muslim world now mix religion with culture morals and ethics that contradict to Islamic teachings.


The Byzantine historians record of the Muslims an almost miraculous degree of religious toleration during this period, for Muslims were deeply immersed in the Quranic spirit of tolerance which declares, "There shall be no compulsion in religion" <Quran, The Cow 2:256>. It is almost impossible for the modern mind to comprehend some of the actions of the early Companions. When the Caliph 'Umar heard that a church had been demolished by a group of Muslims in the distant Syrian mountains and a mosque erected in its stead, he grew angry and issued an order for the demolition of the mosque, and commanded the renegade tribesmen responsible to rebuild the church with their own hands. The Christian clergy wrote in astonishment of the new spirit of brotherhood which filled the East after the retreat of the Byzantines, who were long resented for their extortionate taxes and religious intolerance towards the Monophysite and Arian churches. The Muslim world became a place of refuge for all manner of religious dissent in Europe: Arians, Cathars, Jews. In the same vein, that the Mongol/Tartar invaders of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries ended up adopting the religion of the conquered, attests to the natural appeal and strength of Islam.

Ah ok. Thankyou.

But you didnt answer the question about if marriage was eternal or for earth only.

Then i encourage you to continue looking for your answers.... Give many religions a glance with an open mind and find the one that makes sense.

Thats exactly what I am doing. Except im mostly studying out of interest and not exactly looking for a religion to follow, maybe later

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Minfana ] ++
Another strict atheist here...

Sorry to disturb you, but has anyone ever proved there is "a god" (no God with the capital G for me, 'coz I don't believe in that stuff.)

Some things I'm quite curious about:

Why is "god" always a he?

someone already answred this. It doesn't mean God is a man/male. God is genderless.

Why are there many religions - isn't "the god" the one and only who has created (???) you all?

Each believe that God created all of us. it's the principles and charactoristcs that differ. There are many religions, because there are many interpretation. We dont believe that each religion has its own god!

Who needs priests - especially catholic - I've heard a lot about child abuse

Yes, the child abuse and sexual molesting thing is a discrace, but it's not the person's behavior that defines the religion, it's the opposite. The Bible is against all these terrible things that some priests do. they are bad apples who DONT follow their teachings, so it's unfair to blame religion for their acts. You can'r even say that it's religion's fault because child abuse and molesting could happen anywhere, but it only hits the front pages when a priest does it because it's shocking. These people are supposed to be role models who are more faithful to their religion.

As for why we need priests, i dont know. maybe Gray can answer that. I'm a Muslim. The purpose of our "Imam" is to guide us. He serves as no medium to reach god what so ever. In Islam, it's between the individual and God. we pray to him, ask forgivness from him, and thank him. There are no confessions to mere people.
No offense Graham, but It has always puzzled me how the Pope got the power to forgive sins?

And about pain and suffering: C'MON, WE ALL WILL DIE eventually. Who suffer are the ones who are still living after their loved ones have passed. The dead do not feel anything any more. Besides, what is so horrible about dying? Who wants to live forever anyway...

you have no physical evidence that the spirit (the dead) doesn't feel anything just as we can't physically prove that they do.
The thing is, if we believe in God and follow his message then we have absolutely nothing to lose. In life we gain things like order, meaning, balance, purpose, comfort and direction. And when we do die, we have the chance to go to paradise. Think about it this way.. **If** we are all wrong, we just die like everyone else.
Athiests on the other hand have a lot to lose by not believing. If you were wrong, there's a possibility that you'll be punished for ignoring/not believing in God.

There's so much to gain and so little for us to loose

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
How does one know for sure about their religion. The way I see most people now adays are born into a religion, grow up with it and just accept it. Much like myself. However I found myself asking. What has my life in religion done for me? Without playing the sad story my life really couldnt have been much worse, when I might have needed something, turning to religion never helped. Sure everything perhaps happens for a reason, but thats aload of crap, I would be way better of if I had things normal.

How do you know that your religion is true? Has something ever happened to you that just made you know? How do you know it wasnt a coincidence. Surely there needs to be something on a personal level that convinces you.
Before answering with 'religion makes you feel better' or something, consider that alot of things make you feel better. Couldnt it simply be the learning and determination that is making you feel better? Loads of things make me feel better, drugs and alcohol can make someone feel better.

Isnt it entirely possible that your faith is nothing more than a tradition passed from your parents? That you feel obliged to continue and pass to your children and so the circle continues.

Let me say that I haven't tasted Islam, I haven't sampled Hinduism and I haven't dabbled in Buddhism either. I've read a lot of information regarding these religions and their teachings, and (no offence to anyone of those religions) I came to the conclusion of Christianity. As you said in your example, I was born into a Christian family, but nobody accepts their faith blindly. Of course I had my questions and doubts, but those questions were answered to my satisfaction.

As for "what has my life in religion done for me", I'm not in it for my own benefit, and it does make me feel better, but that's not what draws me to it, nor do I seek brownie points from God. For me, serving God is a natural reaction to what I've learned about his love for me and the salvation from inevitable damnation that I believe can only come from God.

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
Also I heard once that certain religions tell that unexplainable things that could happen when you join a particular religion could be an act of satan. Satan can use such things to get people to join and practice that religion. So if this is true, shouldnt you ask yourself if thats the case with you?

I haven't heard about this before, but I get the feeling that Satan's plan has failed if he intended for me to become a Christian and somehow fit into his plan. I mean why would he want me to join a religion that loves God and detests sin?

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++Furthermore, why hasnt religion changed? Or advanced. Surely everything cannot have been given to us. Surely there is more required of us or that we could do. Why are we a more advance people, still practicing an old unchanged religion of our ancesters. From a christian point of view it dosent seem enough. Yeah you can find anything in the bible, but you can find anything if you dont know what you are looking for or if you dont quite understand what you are reading. Who has made up these guidelines on all modern day things?

The purpose of religions is not to change to suit the times; in fact it's quite the opposite. If for example Christianity 'advanced' to suit the times we live in, it would be nothing more than a wishy-washy guideline by which to live. How exactly do you propose that religions evolve? By taking a lax standpoint on the decay that is so blatantly apparent in society? I don't really understand what you mean by that. Also, the God we serve never changes, so why should those who serve him change the way we live?

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
I've heard that the people who believe in God suffer the most, and the people who don't won't know suffering until they reach the Judgement Day. I know many fellow Catholics who are very good people, who never miss a mass and pray the Rosery everyday. And these people, sadly, seem to have had their fair share of suffering. Deaths, among other problems, seem to be most common occurences.

I haven't heard of this before, and I don't think it's true. Of course Christians are going to have their fair share of suffering too, and that's perfectly natural since God loves all of us equally and doesn't play favourites, but even in the midst of pain, the promise God has made is that he'll always be with us no matter what suffering or grievances we may go through.

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
I do believe that the people who suffer most in Life will suffer the least when they die, and vice versa for the people who don't have a place for God in their lives. But thats just an opinion, and no offense to anyone. But isn't it strange?

I also disagree with this, and as you said, it is a strange theory. To be honest, I see little reason why the people who have no place for God in their lives should/would be rewarded.

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
But why do you have to suffer at all? This whole God thing is a bit strange to me. I mean, if God is all mighty, all powerful, perfect etc, why does he need us? Why did he create humans? What, was it just to ffffwatch us struggle day in and day out. To amuse himself? What is it to him if we go to heaven or not, of we live or die, if we're good or bad? Why does he need us to worship him, is it an ego thing?

God created humans so that he could be in a loving relationship with us. God is love, and we are created in God's image, which is why we are naturally 'programmed' to love and be loved.

++ [ originally posted by Minfana ] ++
Why is "god" always a he?

It's a figurative term, God was described as a "He" because the character of God is most likened to a father who cares for and protects his children, which is why they say "God the Father" etc.

++ [ originally posted by Minfana ] ++
The dead do not feel anything any more. Besides, what is so horrible about dying? Who wants to live forever anyway...

Nothing is horrible about dying, it's what comes afterwards that is potentially horrible. As for living forever, it's not the same as living forever on this Earth, where we'll get bored and old. The eternal life that is written of is in Heaven, and

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" 1 Corinthians 2:9

Basically what that's saying is, you know how there's all these people who say that in heaven, everyone will drive a Rolls Royce and have great feasts all day long... what will be waiting for people in heaven is inconceivable to the human mind, and I'm very glad of that. I mean, if eternal life is going to spent in a place that the feeble human mind can imagine, I don't think it'll be very special at all. I hope that makes sense

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
Mormon (dont disregard because of its 'bad' name, its a christian religion that follows all christian principles, except it has more).

I know this isn't the point here, but I must disagree here. Mormonism claims to be a Christian religion, but to simply say that "it has more" isn't exactly correct. Mormonism teaches things completely unfounded in the original Christian Scriptures, such as the belief that we can become like God. The entire basis of Mormonism is a man claiming that he received a vision from God choosing that man to lead the 'correct' religion, because the religions that already exist on Earth aren't entirely correct.

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
They also explain the struggles etc etc as something God has given us, 'Free Agency', the right to choose what actions etc we will do, we will then be judged on these. God dosent interfere with your free agency hence murders, rapes etc. This is probably the same across all christian religions.

You're right, God has given us free will, and my belief is that this free will is necessary for the loving relationship I spoke of above. I've heard people say "why does God let us sin? Why doesn't he just force us to be good?", but that wouldn't be love, now would it? I'm sure a lot of you would have seen those dolls that say "I love you", when you squeeze them. If God didn't give us free will, we'd be little more than those dolls.

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
And until ive had this discussion online (ive never actually discussed this with Islam etc) I consider the Mormon religion to be the only one that can answer every single question. Does this mean something?

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the fact that it has an answer to every question, could be a discredit to that religion? God requires faith from his believers, which is why some concepts (e.g. the Holy Trinity) will never be fathomed by the human mind, and if the Mormon religion has an answer to every question, doesn't that serve as an indication of the depth of it? I'm not saying that the complication of a religion is proportional to the significance of it, but I find it to be more than a coincidence that a religion based entirely on the claims of one man's visions can be understood completely by the limited minds of humans.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
Yes, the child abuse and sexual molesting thing is a discrace, but it's not the person's behavior that defines the religion, it's the opposite. The Bible is against all these terrible things that some priests do. they are bad apples who DONT follow their teachings, so it's unfair to blame religion for their acts. You can'r even say that it's religion's fault because child abuse and molesting could happen anywhere, but it only hits the front pages when a priest does it because it's shocking. These people are supposed to be role models who are more faithful to their religion.

Thanks M

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
As for why we need priests, i dont know. maybe Gray can answer that. I'm a Muslim. The purpose of our "Imam" is to guide us. He serves as no medium to reach god what so ever. In Islam, it's between the individual and God. we pray to him, ask forgivness from him, and thank him. There are no confessions to mere people.

Same goes with Christian ministers/pastors. No offence to any Catholics here, but I've never understood the need to go to confession and to hear a person say "You are forgiven", nor the need to recite a mantra a certain number of times in order to be forgiven, since it's clearly stated that our sins are forgiven by faith, not by works. Nor we do we need a channel to God. When Jesus was crucified, the curtain of the temple was torn, which signified that every human had direct access and communion with God [HISTORY LESSON]In Old Testament times, there was a certain area of the temple that was closed off with a curtain, and only one ordained priest could enter that area and offer a sacrifice to God. If anyone else entered that place, they were struck dead. When the chosen priest entered that area, they would hand him a bell and attach a rope to his ankle, so that if that priest happened to die, they could drag him out without anyone needing to enter the area [/HISTORY LESSON]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
No offense Graham, but It has always puzzled me how the Pope got the power to forgive sins?

Why would that offend me M? I'm not a Catholic, and therefore have no connection or responsibility to the Pope in any way. I think I've explained this above, but just to make it clear I don't think that any human has the power to forgive sins, nor is it necessary for us to seek forgiveness through a person.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
There's so much to gain and so little for us to loose

Well said

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
Yes but this is what I dont understand. Isnt God fair? For many people being part of a religion simply hasnt been an option. If you are taught by your parents to not worship then you wont do it etc, Is it fair to then be judged as someone who rejected God in your life? I cant see a loving God doing that. What about all the starving kids in africa who have never heard of God? I was hoping someone would quote me somethings for their respective religious books that might explain it, or atleast explain to me what way your religion deals with this. Surely its to big to be overlooked.

As you said, this is a big issue, and I think this post has gotten long enough :stress: I'm going out now, but I'll post an answer to this seperately when I get back. I'm glad to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

I haven't heard of this before, and I don't think it's true. Of course Christians are going to have their fair share of suffering too, and that's perfectly natural since God loves all of us equally and doesn't play favourites, but even in the midst of pain, the promise God has made is that he'll always be with us no matter what suffering or grievances we may go through.

I also disagree with this, and as you said, it is a strange theory. To be honest, I see little reason why the people who have no place for God in their lives should/would be rewarded.

But doesn't it say that in the Bible somewhere, that people who know God will suffer the most, or something like that? Believe me, I have heard it before, I'm not making it up.

 

[gray]

Oooh I get what you're talking about.

John 15:18-21
"When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. Do you remember what I told you? `A servant is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don't know God who sent me.

That's about persecution and rejection rather than the suffering you spoke of. I think that's what you're talking about, but I don't think personal loss such as family deaths etc are included

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Oooh I get what you're talking about.

John 15:18-21
"When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. Do you remember what I told you? `A servant is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don't know God who sent me.

That's about persecution and rejection rather than the suffering you spoke of. I think that's what you're talking about, but I don't think personal loss such as family deaths etc are included

Yeah, I guess thats what I'm speaking of, but I have heard it in different ways.

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
As for "what has my life in religion done for me", I'm not in it for my own benefit, and it does make me feel better, but that's not what draws me to it, nor do I seek brownie points from God. For me, serving God is a natural reaction to what I've learned about his love for me and the salvation from inevitable damnation that I believe can only come from God.

Surely you should be in it for your own benefit. As the purpose of all religion is to advance in eternal life. Also my point wasnt really what has it done for you, more what has it done to show you its true. You never answered the questions on perhaps its merely the study that intriges you and satisfies you. And it could be the study itself that draws you to it.

I haven't heard about this before, but I get the feeling that Satan's plan has failed if he intended for me to become a Christian and somehow fit into his plan. I mean why would he want me to join a religion that loves God and detests sin?

Maybe that plan is to keep you from another religion, a religion that could be the correct religion. Maybe with christianity your wasting your time. Maybe it takes more than just loving god. Your trying to understand satan now?

The purpose of religions is not to change to suit the times; in fact it's quite the opposite. If for example Christianity 'advanced' to suit the times we live in, it would be nothing more than a wishy-washy guideline by which to live. How exactly do you propose that religions evolve? By taking a lax standpoint on the decay that is so blatantly apparent in society? I don't really understand what you mean by that. Also, the God we serve never changes, so why should those who serve him change the way we live?

I mean concearning modern day issues like drugs, abortion etc. The christian religion is quite simple. One book that generally covers alot of points and sometimes its even hard to get the points or they can be taken wrong.

Is that all that this religion requires? Loving god and reading the book again and again?

I know this isn't the point here, but I must disagree here. Mormonism claims to be a Christian religion, but to simply say that "it has more" isn't exactly correct. Mormonism teaches things completely unfounded in the original Christian Scriptures, such as the belief that we can become like God. The entire basis of Mormonism is a man claiming that he received a vision from God choosing that man to lead the 'correct' religion, because the religions that already exist on Earth aren't entirely correct.

The belief that we can become like god? Thats not the way it is I dont think. I believe it to be something like 'becoming a leader in heaven' They believe heaven is split into various kingdoms of different status. What you do on earth determines where you go. Again seems logical. You really think I deserve the same place in heaven as you do? Im certain though that they do not believe in becoming equal to god, thats rediculous.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the fact that it has an answer to every question, could be a discredit to that religion? God requires faith from his believers, which is why some concepts (e.g. the Holy Trinity) will never be fathomed by the human mind, and if the Mormon religion has an answer to every question, doesn't that serve as an indication of the depth of it? I'm not saying that the complication of a religion is proportional to the significance of it, but I find it to be more than a coincidence that a religion based entirely on the claims of one man's visions can be understood completely by the limited minds of humans.

Ok i didnt mean EVERY question. Only some of the bigger ones that I find impossible to not be answered.
And the faith thing dosent really stick as the Mormon religions requires more faith and dedication than most other religions.

Religion based on one mans visions? The religion isnt completely based on that. Its based on christian faith but has been advanced by 'revelation'. Nor is it understood completely. Mormonism claims that alot of information hasnt been given yet, but will when people are ready for it. Hence the whole advancing religion thing. I find it hard to believe that we at this advanced stage in human life are not undoing ourselfs when following an ancient unchanged religion. It just logically seems wrong.

Anyways all that is a result of listening to a friend rant on to me for the past few years Ive never looking into the religion enough to judge it, I also find alot of it hard to digest. However I know enough about the religion to know that almost all of the common beliefs about Mormonism are completely wrong.

Its also quite ironic that i was usually drunk when discussing this. Mormonism being a religion that completely forbids the use of alcohol and drugs

Same goes with Christian ministers/pastors. No offence to any Catholics here, but I've never understood the need to go to confession and to hear a person say "You are forgiven", nor the need to recite a mantra a certain number of times in order to be forgiven, since it's clearly stated that our sins are forgiven by faith, not by works. Nor we do we need a channel to God. When Jesus was crucified, the curtain of the temple was torn, which signified that every human had direct access and communion with God [HISTORY LESSON]In Old Testament times, there was a certain area of the temple that was closed off with a curtain, and only one ordained priest could enter that area and offer a sacrifice to God. If anyone else entered that place, they were struck dead. When the chosen priest entered that area, they would hand him a bell and attach a rope to his ankle, so that if that priest happened to die, they could drag him out without anyone needing to enter the area [/HISTORY LESSON]

Yeah exactly. I dont understand that at all. Or much about the Catholic religion like going out and getting fuc&ked on alcohol and loaded on drugs one night, then going to church the next morning without having broken any church things. How can that be right. Without offending any catholics i see the religion as 60% tradition 40% loss my guilt.

As you said, this is a big issue, and I think this post has gotten long enough :stress: I'm going out now, but I'll post an answer to this seperately when I get back. I'm glad to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability

Alrighty

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++

Surely you should be in it for your own benefit. As the purpose of all religion is to advance in eternal life. Also my point wasnt really what has it done for you, more what has it done to show you its true. You never answered the questions on perhaps its merely the study that intriges you and satisfies you. And it could be the study itself that draws you to it.


Maybe that plan is to keep you from another religion, a religion that could be the correct religion. Maybe with christianity your wasting your time. Maybe it takes more than just loving god. Your trying to understand satan now?



I mean concearning modern day issues like drugs, abortion etc. The christian religion is quite simple. One book that generally covers alot of points and sometimes its even hard to get the points or they can be taken wrong.

Is that all that this religion requires? Loving god and reading the book again and again?



The belief that we can become like god? Thats not the way it is I dont think. I believe it to be something like 'becoming a leader in heaven' They believe heaven is split into various kingdoms of different status. What you do on earth determines where you go. Again seems logical. You really think I deserve the same place in heaven as you do? Im certain though that they do not believe in becoming equal to god, thats rediculous.


Ok i didnt mean EVERY question. Only some of the bigger ones that I find impossible to not be answered.
And the faith thing dosent really stick as the Mormon religions requires more faith and dedication than most other religions.

Religion based on one mans visions? The religion isnt completely based on that. Its based on christian faith but has been advanced by 'revelation'. Nor is it understood completely. Mormonism claims that alot of information hasnt been given yet, but will when people are ready for it. Hence the whole advancing religion thing. I find it hard to believe that we at this advanced stage in human life are not undoing ourselfs when following an ancient unchanged religion. It just logically seems wrong.

Anyways all that is a result of listening to a friend rant on to me for the past few years Ive never looking into the religion enough to judge it, I also find alot of it hard to digest. However I know enough about the religion to know that almost all of the common beliefs about Mormonism are completely wrong.

Its also quite ironic that i was usually drunk when discussing this. Mormonism being a religion that completely forbids the use of alcohol and drugs


Yeah exactly. I dont understand that at all. Or much about the Catholic religion like going out and getting fuc&ked on alcohol and loaded on drugs one night, then going to church the next morning without having broken any church things. How can that be right. Without offending any catholics i see the religion as 60% tradition 40% loss my guilt.



Alrighty

Well Gray and River, its all Catholic Tradition about Reconciliation. I'm not sure why its that hard to believe, but since I'm Catholic I've been taught that a clean conscience is what leads you to hapiness, which is brought out by Confession.

And River, I'm not sure what you mean by that. What is 40% loss my guilt. I'm a bit drunk right now, so please bear with me.

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Well Gray and River, its all Catholic Tradition about Reconciliation. I'm not sure why its that hard to believe, but since I'm Catholic I've been taught that a clean conscience is what leads you to hapiness, which is brought out by Confession.

And River, I'm not sure what you mean by that. What is 40% loss my guilt. I'm a bit drunk right now, so please bear with me.

Read your first sentence

Catholic religion seems to be all about feeling good about yourself, there isnt a great devotion to God. Isnt Mary even worshipped as much as God?

Its not like a religion, its full of physical things that you should do etc. I know I wont be catholic thats for sure

NO OFFENCE, IMO and all that.

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Oooh I get what you're talking about.

John 15:18-21
"When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. Do you remember what I told you? `A servant is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don't know God who sent me.

That's about persecution and rejection rather than the suffering you spoke of. I think that's what you're talking about, but I don't think personal loss such as family deaths etc are included

I love the older version

John 15:18-21
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me."

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++


Read your first sentence

Catholic religion seems to be all about feeling good about yourself, there isnt a great devotion to God. Isnt Mary even worshipped as much as God?

Its not like a religion, its full of physical things that you should do etc. I know I wont be catholic thats for sure

NO OFFENCE, IMO and all that.

Well I hope you mean that, cuz about 60 Million other Catholics would beg to differ. The Catholic faith is all about the Ten Commandments, and the Golden Rule. Feeling good about your self? What Religion doesn't have that philosophy? We believe in the Trinity, which is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit; they are all one being. So we value them all the same, cuz they are all the same. But God is who we worship the most. Not a great devotion to God? Hmmmm, thats rather weird. I'm not sure why you think that. And no, Mary is not on the same parallel as God.

But yeah, it seems like many people have something against my faith.

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Well I hope you mean that, cuz about 60 Million other Catholics would beg to differ. The Catholic faith is all about the Ten Commandments, and the Golden Rule. Feeling good about your self? What Religion doesn't have that philosophy? We believe in the Trinity, which is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit; they are all one being. So we value them all the same, cuz they are all the same. But God is who we worship the most. Not a great devotion to God? Hmmmm, thats rather weird. I'm not sure why you think that. And no, Mary is not on the same parallel as God.

But yeah, it seems like many people have something against my faith.

I have nothing against it. Its just alittle easy or something

Like i said before is it right to go out and get loaded on drugs and alcohol? Affecting the physical body God give us. Yet it seems to be allowed in many religions. Also in other religions to be forgiven for a sin it requires 1) to be truely sorry for doing it 2) to pray and ask forgiveness for it 3) To not recommit the sin.

In catholic religion it only requires going into a booth and confessing that you did it. Then chant a few things.
Why the need to even confess it? God knows everything, you dont need to tell God youve done it. This method of forgiveness just dosnt cut it for me.

Anyways like I said nothing against the faith or you. Im critical of everything, Catholics just make it to easy

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

who read all this and dont lie.

 

[Fred]

i only read Majed's and Gray's posts,what about you?

 

[Trezeguet_FC]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++

Thats exactly what I am doing. Except im mostly studying out of interest and not exactly looking for a religion to follow, maybe later

The Baha'i Faith is a very interesting religion to research. There are a fair bit of Baha'is in London too.

I haven't got time to read all your people's amazing posts (I really love religion and God discussions), but there was one question from River that really caught my attention.

++ [ Furthermore, why hasnt religion changed? Or advanced. Surely everything cannot have been given to us. Surely there is more required of us or that we could do. Why are we a more advance people, still practicing an old unchanged religion of our ancesters. From a christian point of view it dosent seem enough. Yeah you can find anything in the bible, but you can find anything if you dont know what you are looking for or if you dont quite understand what you are reading. Who has made up these guidelines on all modern day things?

You asked about why we are following religions from thousands of years ago and why most of them are so old. Well here's my standpoint on this:

I, as a Baha'i, believe in progressive revelation. God has sent His Manifestations from God down to us over the ages brining new teachings appropiate for the people. If you really study religion, you will see a recurring style. This style shows the appearance of a Messenger (Manifestation of God), at first rejected by the people around him, but finally accepted over time. That is why, when each Messenger comes, he faces trials and tribulations, and possibly crucifixion in Jesus Christ's situation. Even if we look at Muhammads, Moses's, Baha'u'llah's or any other Messengers situation, they were not welcomed and they suffered a great deal and they were most of the time imprissoned. Instead, it took hundreds of years in order for their respective religions to gain the appreciation they deserved.

In addition, religions have always come in the time of need by the people. They have always come at a time when humankind needs a change and needs a new set of religious laws to base their lives upon. During Abraham's time, people were blindly following fake gods and idols, so God sent down Abraham to teach the people not to follow these idols. Abraham simply taught the people what they needed to know at that time. He didn't teach the more detailed laws of Christ's, nor the even more complicated and details of Muhammand. However, as the ages passed there came needs for more Messengers to come down and to set the people on the right track. For example, Moses came to tell the people not to follow the Pharoah and he set the 10 commandments, which solved many issues within the people during those times. Then Jesus Christ came (I'm skipping Messengers of God here by the way, just touching on some of the more well known ones). When Jesus Christ came, he taught the people to love their neighbours and treat each other equally. The world was in desperate need for Jesus Christ's teachings at that time and that is why God sent Him. Then came Muhammad to further expand of Christ's teachings, except getting into even more detail since humankind had matured and was ready for what he was going to offer. He wrote the Qu'ran which outlined many profecies of the Promised One of all ages.

Now, in the current turmoil of the world, we are in desperate need for a New World Order. An order that abolishes all forms of prejudice and hate. An order that allows the full equality of man and woman and for the abolishment of the extremes of wealth and poverty. This is where I believe Baha'u'llah, founder of the Baha'i Faith has come. He declared his mission in 1863 in Iran, at a time when the world was in desperate need. The laws and principles taught by Baha'u'llah directly assess what the world is lacking right now. Baha'is believe that only now is humankind ready for the teachings of Baha'u'llah. Since lets try to picture Abraham teaching the people of the equality of men and women, or try picture Jesus Christ teach the need for Universal Education at his time. These ideas would have been out of this world, not even comprehendable. Of course the Messengers themselves believed in these ideas, but humankind at their respective times weren't ready. Each religion has slowly developed onto another progressively adding new and more detailed teachings. Muhammads teachings in the Qu'ran are much more detailed than Moses's 10 commandments. The Qu'ran contains all the concepts of the 10 commandments but develops on them even further.

Now Baha'u'llah has come with his teachings, that are all coherent with all the teachings taught by all the previous Messengers from God, but they get into more detail and outline the needs of humanity today. Imagine us still living by the 10 Commandments. It just simply is'nt enough anymore. The current state of the world requires something more detailed and concentrated and I as a Baha'i believe that Baha'u'llah is the Messenger for this day and age. His teachings address all the problems in the world today and as Baha'is we believe he is the Promised One of all ages. I saw some of you were asking about the harmony of science and religion. In fact, the harmony of science and religion is a topic that Baha'u'llah directly issues and it is given great importance.

I don't know if I'm making sense about this whole Progressive Revelation thing, but please ask me questions. Also, if you have any questions about the Baha'i Faith and our standpoint on the current affairs of the world today please feel free to ask me.

 

[Seven]

You know, every religion is just something created by people because they're scared. They're scared about what's going to happen after death for example, and so they create some sort of God and if they follow "his" rules everything is going to be alright. But as I-don't-know-who said: "it's better to believe in God. Because if there proves to be no God you haven't lost anything. If there is a God, you've lost everything.'

 

[Seven]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++


Read your first sentence

Catholic religion seems to be all about feeling good about yourself, there isnt a great devotion to God. Isnt Mary even worshipped as much as God?

Its not like a religion, its full of physical things that you should do etc. I know I wont be catholic thats for sure

NO OFFENCE, IMO and all that.

Catholicism is quite like a sect. But because there are so many catholics, suddenly they're alright. Though they eat the body of Jesus and drink his blood

 

[Zlatan]

I cant read all that

 

[Trezeguet_FC]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++

Like i said before is it right to go out and get loaded on drugs and alcohol? Affecting the physical body God give us. Yet it seems to be allowed in many religions. Also in other religions to be forgiven for a sin it requires 1) to be truely sorry for doing it 2) to pray and ask forgiveness for it 3) To not recommit the sin.

In catholic religion it only requires going into a booth and confessing that you did it. Then chant a few things.
Why the need to even confess it? God knows everything, you dont need to tell God youve done it. This method of forgiveness just dosnt cut it for me.

Anyways like I said nothing against the faith or you. Im critical of everything, Catholics just make it to easy

The Baha'i Faith believes in the independent investigation of the truth. Baha'u'llah said that God has invested each and everyone of us on this world with the ability to understand and comprehend. It is our duty as human beings to read the many scriptures written by Baha'u'llah and follow them. The Baha'i Faith has no clergy, since it believes that ones communion and interaction with God is personal. Whether a Baha'i fasts, says their obligatory prayer or abides by the religous laws is up to the believer's discretion and steadfastness. There is no confession in the Baha'i Faith, since no one has the right to judge you or forgive you other than God himself.

As for laws, it is forbidden the Baha'i Faith to drink any alcohol whatsoever, consume drugs for purposes other than medical, have sex before marriage, murder, backbite (gossiping behind some ones back), etc and the list goes on.