Claudio Ranieri (65 Viewers)

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
Then how can you explain Camo having a great game, IQ/Marchisio/Gio having a good game and even Trez doing well when coming on and others not so great? Seems to me that CR did his job with those mentioned? The others just weren't up for the game....sorry, the coach can't do everything...Olof made some very elementary mistakes that probably in any other game he wouldn't have made, that is not CRs fault but the players...being in a game mentally is also down to the players will and want to play the game...

You're right to an extent yes the coach plays a big part in that, but once the players step onto the pitch its their duty to convert.
 

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Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
Did you not see the way the team played from the start of the second half to the point we went ahead?

There was no lack of effort.


The team's heart and determination just isn't enough to overcome the technical and tactical deficiencies.
Elaborate. I fail to acknowledge how we could beat stronger teams earlier in the season with a much more ravaged injury list but are unable to overcome technical and tactical deficiencies against Chievo with a near complete squad?

AND considering what was riding on this victory for the league title should have been enough for our team to destroy Chievo...that alone CR really didnt need to say anything, the team knew was was riding on this game.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,912
Then how can you explain Camo having a great game, IQ/Marchisio/Gio having a good game and even Trez doing well when coming on and others not so great? Seems to me that CR did his job with those mentioned? The others just weren't up for the game....sorry, the coach can't do everything...Olof made some very elementary mistakes that probably in any other game he wouldn't have made, that is not CRs fault but the players...being in a game mentally is also down to the players will and want to play the game...

You're right to an extent yes the coach plays a big part in that, but once the players step onto the pitch its their duty to convert.
We're not getting anywhere here. I'm not blaming CR for Mellborg's mistake. Of course the players shoulder some of the blame. But CR is the person who chooses some of these players, even no matter how long they play poorly.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,912
Elaborate. I fail to acknowledge how we could beat stronger teams earlier in the season with a much more ravaged injury list but are unable to overcome technical and tactical deficiencies against Chievo with a near complete squad?
Using the right players, the right tactics, come to mind.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
We're not getting anywhere here. I'm not blaming CR for Mellborg's mistake. Of course the players shoulder some of the blame. But CR is the person who chooses some of these players, even no matter how long they play poorly.
Understood.

Using the right players, the right tactics, come to mind.
But, what poor tactics were used against Chievo? What could have been done differently?
 

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
Elaborate. I fail to acknowledge how we could beat stronger teams earlier in the season with a much more ravaged injury list but are unable to overcome technical and tactical deficiencies against Chievo with a near complete squad?

AND considering what was riding on this victory for the league title should have been enough for our team to destroy Chievo...that alone CR really didnt need to say anything, the team knew was was riding on this game.
It is a very different skill beating big teams rather than small teams. Big teams give you space to play and attack more slowly rather than merely counter attacking.

And there is no telling when technical and tactical deficiencies will come back to bite you on the ass. We played a great second half against Chievo, but that wasn't enough to overcome the individual limitations of some of the players (notably Mellberg and Chiellini on this occassion).
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
It is a very different skill beating big teams rather than small teams. Big teams give you space to play and attack more slowly rather than merely counter attacking.

And there is no telling when technical and tactical deficiencies will come back to bite you on the ass. We played a great second half against Chievo, but that wasn't enough to overcome the individual limitations of some of the players (notably Mellberg and Chiellini on this occassion).
I don't think these mistakes are something they make often or even again, to me they were just freak mistakes as both of them are smarter, much smarter than that. They both have weaknesses but I don't necessarily think they were evident in the goals conceded, just a lapse of concentration.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
It is a very different skill beating big teams rather than small teams. Big teams give you space to play and attack more slowly rather than merely counter attacking.

And there is no telling when technical and tactical deficiencies will come back to bite you on the ass. We played a great second half against Chievo, but that wasn't enough to overcome the individual limitations of some of the players (notably Mellberg and Chiellini on this occassion).
Sorry for the double post, i just thought of this. We did play a great second half, but perhaps was that because CR brought on Trez and Zebina, hence making a couple good tactical choices?
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,893
The big team players are never motivated when they play Chievo or Bologna (well, unless it's a last round match and they desperately need the points), while Chievo and Bologna players are always motivated when they play Inter, Milan or Juve.

To win a league you need to win at least 90% of the matches against these small teams. If you have top quality in the team, even without motivation you will win 90% of these matches.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
The big team players are never motivated when they play Chievo or Bologna (well, unless it's a last round match and they desperately need the points), while Chievo and Bologna players are always motivated when they play Inter, Milan or Juve.

To win a league you need to win at least 90% of the matches against these small teams. If you have top quality in the team, even without motivation you will win 90% of these matches.
But we should have been motivated from the start knowing what would happen should we do anything other than win. The league was on the line, it shouldn't matter at this point whom we were playing...
 

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
I don't think these mistakes are something they make often or even again, to me they were just freak mistakes as both of them are smarter, much smarter than that. They both have weaknesses but I don't necessarily think they were evident in the goals conceded, just a lapse of concentration.
It was a tactical mistake by Ranieri/the defence to play such a high line against Pellisier's pace when we didn't have a DM to protect the defence. That caused the second goal and contributed to the first.

Top class defenders would never make a mistake as bad as Mellberg did for the third goal and would only make a mistake as bad as Chiellini did for the first about once a season.
 

Red

-------
Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
Sorry for the double post, i just thought of this. We did play a great second half, but perhaps was that because CR brought on Trez and Zebina, hence making a couple good tactical choices?
And those changes after poor starting tactics was almost enough to save the game, but not quite.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
Having a DM wouldn't have made a difference on Chiellini's mistake. A top class defender still makes mistakes, its hard to claim perfection or not able to make simple mistakes just because they are labeled top class. Buffon is top class, but he has allowed a few petty goals as of late. DP had a couple clear chances in the first half that weren't converated, would a top class striker had put the ball in the goal or is DP not one? Mellberg has done well this season and saved us at times from conceding, who can predict a top class defender wouldn't make mistakes leading up to goals?
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
And those changes after poor starting tactics was almost enough to save the game, but not quite.
You're confusing me...so an unfit Zebina to play a whole 90 mins is poor? Or starting our captain not knowing he was going to have an off game instead of trezeguet was a poor tactic? I was not fully aware Zebina was fully fit or DP was going to have an off game:shifty:
 

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
Having a DM wouldn't have made a difference on Chiellini's mistake. A top class defender still makes mistakes, its hard to claim perfection or not able to make simple mistakes just because they are labeled top class. Buffon is top class, but he has allowed a few petty goals as of late. DP had a couple clear chances in the first half that weren't converated, would a top class striker had put the ball in the goal or is DP not one? Mellberg has done well this season and saved us at times from conceding, who can predict a top class defender wouldn't make mistakes leading up to goals?
A proper DM presses the game and makes it harder for the opposition to play good balls in behind the defence.

If it wasn't Buffon in goal, no-one would bat an eyelid at those goals. They just aren't ones that you can expect a 'keeper to save. If Buffon does something extraordinary, that's great, but it can't be expected all the time.

Del Piero's chances weren't easy.

I'm not saying Mellberg is a bad defender or that he has made heaps of mistakes. I'm just saying that he isn't good enough to be relied on much, especially when left exposed.

You're confusing me...so an unfit Zebina to play a whole 90 mins is poor? Or starting our captain not knowing he was going to have an off game instead of trezeguet was a poor tactic? I was not fully aware Zebina was fully fit or DP was going to have an off game:shifty:
The situation had changed.

It wasn't a good starting XI, but the team that started the second half was a good one with which to try go all out attack, which is what was necessary.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,702
I guess what I was confused about with Camo/Zebina...CR was so quick to throw them both on then why didn't he just start them and sub them later if we had control of the game? THAT I could see as a tactical deficiency, but Pellisier is not that good IMO, not enough to anchor a DM to necessitate control.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,749
The big team players are never motivated when they play Chievo or Bologna (well, unless it's a last round match and they desperately need the points), while Chievo and Bologna players are always motivated when they play Inter, Milan or Juve.

To win a league you need to win at least 90% of the matches against these small teams. If you have top quality in the team, even without motivation you will win 90% of these matches.
That's totally true of the Juve that has won previous Scudetti in recent memory.

Meaning: this Juve hasn't become Inter, it's become Milan: where nobody gets interested in the game unless the competition is a title-contender. :(
 

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
I guess what I was confused about with Camo/Zebina...CR was so quick to throw them both on then why didn't he just start them and sub them later if we had control of the game? THAT I could see as a tactical deficiency.
I don't know enough about Camoranesi or Zebina's fitness to really comment on that.

It was weird with Camo, that he was fit to play for over an hour, but didn't start.

Pellisier is not that good IMO, not enough to anchor a DM to necessitate control.
It's not about Pellisier's ability; just his pace.

If you play a high defensive line, like we do, you must press the ball in midfield to make it as hard as possible for the opposition to play high quality ball in behind the defence. That is why Sissoko is such a key player in our team.

All that was needed to compensate for not playing a DM, was do defend five or ten yards deeper so that it was harder for Chievo to play the ball in behind and there would be less space for Pellisier to use his pace.
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
IMO the coach should be blamed mostly when the team suffers from collective under-performance.
Since there is little chance that everybody happened to be in a bad day...
not individual mistakes!

Individual mistakes from players who rarely ever commit any, is hardly the coaches fault. Since a large part of our team worked properly and some players who underperformed/injured were replaced, one can hardly blame CR for the lack of proper tools to overcome an impossible situation.
The only thing we can blame CR of, is that he did not supported our weak defense with one more defensive midfielder. But this has been our main point of criticism during the year and the reason we lost too many points because we (CR) were afraid to risk fielding just that! Therefore, personally, i wont blame him for this choice...


Dont forget that he started Giovinco and Salih and he kept Neddy and Marchionni on the bench, which are some great choices to boost with.
He later on, subbed out the useless Salih, Grygera and the off day DP.
The players who came in, Camo, Zebina and Treze were far better than them and contributed a lot to our cause, esp Camo and Zebi.
They were probably not fit enough to start the game and we cant blame for not starting them at the first place. So his pre-match and subs choices were all fine.

If CR had more subs left, he would probably sub out Tiago too
, but he considered that we need to replace those injured/off form players first. He considered this to be a priority and he was right since our flank was usually our weak point and the presence of Tiago could be more tolerated that then ones he set us priorities to sub out before him.

The only thing i cant understand, is why he didnt pick Poulsen instead of Tiago,
it could be smth we are missing, like Poulsen not being fully fit, or an order issued from our mangers, to use Tiago more often, as a starter, esp against the lesser teams, so that we can sell him in the coming transfer window, easier and for more money...

Tactically, i dont think that CR made many mistakes. Our team had a flow, we were threatening from both flanks and the center of the midfield. We managed to score 3 times, even with an off day DP and without Amauri.
If some of our key players had a better day, or Chievo were proved as efficient as they usually are (much less than they were with us) we wouldnt suffer the loss of those points.
IMO CR, managed to overcome the obstacles presented to his plans, with the right choices, considering the very limited material he had available!
Our greatest tactical flaw though, the reason we conceded two goals this time and 80% of our goals during the season, is the vertical passes who brake our offside trap and expose the back of our defense.
This is a tactical flaw for sure, i am not sure if its CR's fault, or its simple beyond achievable counter-measures with this faulty material we have in our defense.
BUT since it has been repeated countless times, CR ought to do smth about it!!
I mean its ridiculous to concede the very same goal time and time again.

I never did and i wont blame the coach for individual mistakes,
the collective failure of our defense was expected,
but thats mostly because of the low quality of our starters there and this choice was made before the season even started, it was probably a choice that was imposed to CR by our board, at least in a degree!!
Soon or later we were bound to lose some points because of that and no player or the coach should be blamed because of this!
CR should considered this handicap and come up with decent plan by now, but he has been proved very indecisive with that. He is either too bold or too scared.
This is were i blame him!

For this game, he took a risk, but on theory the odds would favor us, we had a tremendous creative power and the best keeper in the world to make up for our defensive mistakes, against one of the weakest teams in the league.
This was a calculated risk.

But the coaches duty does not ends here, he also carries a blame for the decisions who affect us in the long run.
I also blame CR because he personally favors some players who have proved to be extremely limited and unable to become Juve material, ever and beyond any doubt!!!
He is personally condemning our team to bear a tactical and a quality handicap, as long as he insists on using them and i m referring to our wing backs starters here.
I believe that CR is just a pawn and he has very limited control to our managerial decisions. But he should opt for a better defense, praising our worst player of the previous season like that (Moli) and dont give any chances to a far more promising player (De Ceglie) is solely his fault.
He also limited his choices in the CB position by giving away Criscito like that,
with the way he treated him, an act witch resulted into the useless Knezevic, who limited his alternative choices to none...
And also placing our priorities into signing one more expensive midfielder (Poulsen), higher than a defender, gave him the free and very limited Mellberg too. I am not sure what proportion of these strategical mistakes, belong to CR, but he shares a fair part of this fault, for embracing and support, if not actually make these certain decisions, which resulted in the current situation...
Those decisions are still undermining our future, someone has to do smth about it, better late than never...
We should avoid blaming CR for Secco and co mistakes!
I would like to see CR for asking for better defenders, if he doesnt, he becomes a conspirator into a crime against Juve's interests, i think he can afford to raise his voice by now.



PS: the lazy ones and the ones who already know my arguments and need no explanation for them, should only read the outlined text, which makes just a paragraph, i dont want to see any complains about the length of my post.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,893
PS: the lazy ones and the ones who already know my arguments and need no explanation for them, should only read the outlined text, which makes just a paragraph, i dont want to see any complains about the length of my post.
:lol:
Don't be a fool. Write as much as you want and don't give a damn about some comments about the lenght of your posts.
You don't really need to give excuses for the lenght of the post.
 

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