[CL] Real Madrid 1-3 Juventus [April 11th 2018] (8 Viewers)

[Dostoevsky]

Maybe we don't. But that doesn't mean we can't.

That makes no sense.

You need an evidence to stand behind such statement. Like: we did that in that, that and that season. Unless you dig an old year I doubt we'll see many such signings. I personally don't recall many during my fan era.

We opt for players like Vidal, Pjanic, Cuadrado, Costa, Berna, Dybala etc. It's clear that we always chase best players from our league (Alen made a good post not so long ago when he said how we wouldn't even sign Pjanic or Dybala had they played in Spain or England). Other than that, we're in a good position to sign faded stars who need to be revived or just generally useful and good players.

I highly doubt our board thinks like "we'll skip on Griezmann so we can sign D.Costa" just because we think he's a better player. We're not even in the race for players when City, Psg, Real and Barca are after them. Such players would never come, or rarely would, maybe just in a case if they are fans or something.

What you say literally sounds like: we can win the champions league, but we won't do it.

 

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[Seven]

That makes no sense.

You need an evidence to stand behind such statement. Like: we did that in that, that and that season. Unless you dig an old year I doubt we'll see many such signings. I personally don't recall many during my fan era.

We opt for players like Vidal, Pjanic, Cuadrado, Costa, Berna, Dybala etc. It's clear that we always chase best players from our league (Alen made a good post not so long ago when he said how we wouldn't even sign Pjanic or Dybala had they played in Spain or England). Other than that, we're in a good position to sign faded stars who need to be revived or just generally useful and good players.

I highly doubt our board thinks like "we'll skip on Griezmann so we can sign D.Costa" just because we think he's a better player. We're not even in the race for players when City, Psg, Real and Barca are after them. Such players would never come, or rarely would, maybe just in a case if they are fans or something.

What you say literally sounds like: we can win the champions league, but we won't do it.

You're mistaken. I didn't say we regularly buy big players. I said there's no reason we shouldn't be able to buy big players. Those are two very different statements. If I had said the first, I agree, I should be able to come up with an example. However, I said the second. You're claiming that we aren't able to buy big players, so you're saying there is in fact a reason. As it's impossible to prove a negative (I cannot prove there is no reason), the burden of proof is on you (you should prove there is a reason).

And winning the CL is not just about buying big players. Otherwise PSG and Man City would have obviously already won it.

 

[Dostoevsky]

You're mistaken. I didn't say we regularly buy big players. I said there's no reason we shouldn't be able to buy big players. Those are two very different statements. If I had said the first, I agree, I should be able to come up with an example. However, I said the second. You're claiming that we aren't able to buy big players, so you're saying there is in fact a reason. As it's impossible to prove a negative (I cannot prove there is no reason), the burden of proof is on you (you should prove there is a reason).

And winning the CL is not just about buying big players. Otherwise PSG and Man City would have obviously already won it.

I think it's silly to even point that out. Because I could say the same for a couple more clubs at least, but it's obvious they are not in a position to buy top players.

And yeah, there's a reason. We're not in a position to attract star players here. Proof is big enough to see a bigger picture and our transfer history and Serie A reputation compared to other league.

I agree that you don't win CL with top players only. But might as well point out how you won't win it with players like Khedira in the middle. Or a fragile defense and a shitty right back. You see, City and others spent big and tried to win it, yet failed. We didn't try to strengthen our middle or our right back position, but we failed. So I'd say we didn't play it smart in previous summer.

And no, we're not going to sign Griezmann. And that's not because we won't be interested, but because he won't sign for us compared to the other bids that he'll receive.

 

[Seven]

I think it's silly to even point that out. Because I could say the same for a couple more clubs at least, but it's obvious they are not in a position to buy top players.

And yeah, there's a reason. We're not in a position to attract star players here. Proof is big enough to see a bigger picture and our transfer history and Serie A reputation compared to other league.

I agree that you don't win CL with top players only. But might as well point out how you won't win it with players like Khedira in the middle. Or a fragile defense and a shitty right back. You see, City and others spent big and tried to win it, yet failed. We didn't try to strengthen our middle or our right back position, but we failed. So I'd say we didn't play it smart in previous summer.

And no, we're not going to sign Griezmann. And that's not because we won't be interested, but because he won't sign for us compared to the other bids that he'll receive.

Stop acting as if we're the Serbia of club football.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Stop acting as if we're the Serbia of club football.

No, luckily we're far from such thing.

I act objectively seeing how we act with transfers over the past 20 years.

I'm not shitting on Juventus. We made some of the most amazing transfers over the past 5 years, even compared with elite clubs who are in position to splash 150-200mln on single players. We had amazing deals like Vidal and Pogba. We signed a wizard in Pjanic. And many, many others.

But there's a huge difference between buying smart and great players under the radar, and buying top world class players from top clubs.

 

[Maddy]

No, luckily we're far from such thing.

I act objectively seeing how we act with transfers over the past 20 years.

I'm not shitting on Juventus. We made some of the most amazing transfers over the past 5 years, even compared with elite clubs who are in position to splash 150-200mln on single players. We had amazing deals like Vidal and Pogba. We signed a wizard in Pjanic. And many, many others.

But there's a huge difference between buying smart and great players under the radar, and buying top world class players from top clubs.

It would be an abnormal event were we to 'break the bank' for a player without having secured the funds thru sales.

The strategy of the board and Marotta is to have a healthy and sustainable business model [both short and long term]; nothing indicates a change of strategy.

Marotta and Allegri reached two CL finals thru this strategy, despite us nearing the end of a 'golden period', we should not expect a fast nor expensive rebuild. Arguably we only need a couple of world class players to be competitive, the problem is the price of said world class. The market aren't exactly saturated by great midfielders and outside backs.

Besides Costa (I don't wanna sign him), Can, Darmian type of player and another mediocre Italian filler, I expect a 50 million splash on a "market opportunity"; hopefully a midfielder.

 

[MikeM]

If you sit back and look at our situation objectively, you can see there are clear tiers in transfer power determined by domestic talent available and wealth. If you play in Spain, France or Germany, you have domestic talent available to you. We do not, relatively speaking. England does not. But they have global appeal, so they're a step ahead.

In terms of the absolute best comparison, we are most similar to Liverpool IMO. We can't find good domestic talent because there is none in our country. And we have almost the exact same revenue. So both clubs have to go abroad with the same resources. Liverpool has a slight edge in terms of the league they play in having global appeal.

Barcelona (Domestic talent + Wealth)
Real Madrid (Domestic talent + Wealth)
Bayern (Domestic talent + Wealth)
PSG ( Domestic talent + Wealth)
Man City (Wealth)
Man United (Wealth)
Chelsea (Wealth)
Arsenal (Wealth, in theory)

Juventus (No domestic talent, no absurd wealth)
Liverpool (No domestic talent, no absurd wealth)

Spurs (No domestic talent, slightly less wealth than Juve/Liverpool)

Dortmund (Domestic talent, slightly less wealth than Spurs)
Atletico Madrid (Domestic talent, slightly less wealth than Spurs)

 

[Dostoevsky]

It would be an abnormal event were we to 'break the bank' for a player without having secured the funds thru sales.

The strategy of the board and Marotta is to have a healthy and sustainable business model [both short and long term]; nothing indicates a change of strategy.

Marotta and Allegri reached two CL finals thru this strategy, despite us nearing the end of a 'golden period', we should not expect a fast nor expensive rebuild. Arguably we only need a couple of world class players to be competitive, the problem is the price of said world class. The market aren't exactly saturated by great midfielders and outside backs.

Besides Costa (I don't wanna sign him), Can, Darmian type of player and another mediocre Italian filler, I expect a 50 million splash on a "market opportunity"; hopefully a midfielder.

I don't expect 50mln unless we sell (even for 20-25mln).

Btw, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with our approach. I just say we're not a club who competes with elite clubs in regards to world class players. We excell at our job, but that ain't buying top class players at this point.

Oh and I'll point one more thing. I'm scared as fuck at this point. Seriously. I think we're gonna gamble quite a lot this summer (and possibly the next). What worries me is loss of our key players due to their age. It's gonna hurt like a bitch to lose Gigi and Barzagli. It's also painful to see last struggle of Chiellini and possibly Marchisio as well (Khedira is not getting any younger either, but not just that, he's made of glass as well). Lichtsteiner also leaving is horrible and although he's not really useful at this point, can't forget the wonderful years he has had here ever since he joined from Lazio. Asamoah leaving too?

Our midfield is gonna be really butchered come summer. Defense as well. We're going to face a real problem and IMO this will be the toughest tast Marotta has ever face so far. He has to replace our key players and he won't really have a huge wallet at his disposal. People mention how we have Caldara already, but oh boy, can't say I'm really looking forward to see a young kid directly replace Barzagli who was our best defenders for many years.

 

[Dostoevsky]

If you sit back and look at our situation objectively, you can see there are clear tiers in transfer power determined by domestic talent available and wealth. If you play in Spain, France or Germany, you have domestic talent available to you. We do not, relatively speaking. England does not. But they have global appeal, so they're a step ahead.

In terms of the absolute best comparison, we are most similar to Liverpool IMO. We can't find good domestic talent because there is none in our country. And we have almost the exact same revenue. So both clubs have to go abroad with the same resources. Liverpool has a slight edge in terms of the league they play in having global appeal.

Barcelona (Domestic talent + Wealth)
Real Madrid (Domestic talent + Wealth)
Bayern (Domestic talent + Wealth)
PSG ( Domestic talent + Wealth)
Man City (Wealth)
Man United (Wealth)
Chelsea (Wealth)
Arsenal (Wealth, in theory)

Juventus (No domestic talent, no absurd wealth)
Liverpool (No domestic talent, no absurd wealth)

Spurs (No domestic talent, slightly less wealth than Juve/Liverpool)

Dortmund (Domestic talent, slightly less wealth than Spurs)
Atletico Madrid (Domestic talent, slightly less wealth than Spurs)

 

[Hydde]

Marotta indeed will have nightmares this mercato.

He will not have the luxury to lose objectives, otherwise we could be fucked before the season even start

 

[juve103423]

I don't expect 50mln unless we sell (even for 20-25mln).

Btw, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with our approach. I just say we're not a club who competes with elite clubs in regards to world class players. We excell at our job, but that ain't buying top class players at this point.

Oh and I'll point one more thing. I'm scared as fuck at this point. Seriously. I think we're gonna gamble quite a lot this summer (and possibly the next). What worries me is loss of our key players due to their age. It's gonna hurt like a bitch to lose Gigi and Barzagli. It's also painful to see last struggle of Chiellini and possibly Marchisio as well (Khedira is not getting any younger either, but not just that, he's made of glass as well). Lichtsteiner also leaving is horrible and although he's not really useful at this point, can't forget the wonderful years he has had here ever since he joined from Lazio. Asamoah leaving too?

Our midfield is gonna be really butchered come summer. Defense as well. We're going to face a real problem and IMO this will be the toughest tast Marotta has ever face so far. He has to replace our key players and he won't really have a huge wallet at his disposal. People mention how we have Caldara already, but oh boy, can't say I'm really looking forward to see a young kid directly replace Barzagli who was our best defenders for many years.

I dont think it is as bad as your post make it seem, regarding the next years upcoming challenges. Since you are aware that it is now time to substitute some players (buffon, barzagli, lichtsteiner, chiellini, khedira, marchisio) is because they are already showing weakness and limiting us. That is the current situation we are in right now, we are dealing with the consequences right now, yet we are still doing well this season objectively. Of those players, only Buffon, Chiellini and Khedira would I consider starters on our team. Buffon we already got a currently better replacement for in Szczesny and when Buffon finally retires and Szczesny gets all the games, it will be an upgrade!
Khedira and Marchisio are not supposed to play anyway and we should expect a top quality CM as replacement. Chiellini will be a bit harder to replace but maybe Caldara could be our man. Anyhow, as long as we get an actual football player for the defence, even with weaker general defending skills then it could turn out positive for us and our now more technical gameplay.
I would be happy to get rid of Buffon, Marchisio, Khedira (if we can some $$), Chiellini (if some $$ and we find an intelligent and technical defender), Mandzukic, Lichtsteiner.
Lets keep Barzagli and Asamoah.

 

[Dostoevsky]

I dont think it is as bad as your post make it seem, regarding the next years upcoming challenges. Since you are aware that it is now time to substitute some players (buffon, barzagli, lichtsteiner, chiellini, khedira, marchisio) is because they are already showing weakness and limiting us. That is the current situation we are in right now, we are dealing with the consequences right now, yet we are still doing well this season objectively. Of those players, only Buffon, Chiellini and Khedira would I consider starters on our team. Buffon we already got a currently better replacement for in Szczesny and when Buffon finally retires and Szczesny gets all the games, it will be an upgrade!
Khedira and Marchisio are not supposed to play anyway and we should expect a top quality CM as replacement. Chiellini will be a bit harder to replace but maybe Caldara could be our man. Anyhow, as long as we get an actual football player for the defence, even with weaker general defending skills then it could turn out positive for us and our now more technical gameplay.
I would be happy to get rid of Buffon, Marchisio, Khedira (if we can some $$), Chiellini (if some $$ and we find an intelligent and technical defender), Mandzukic, Lichtsteiner.
Lets keep Barzagli and Asamoah.

Don't let the present cloud your memories. Marchisio spent quite a lot time on the pitch over the past years (2000, 2700 and 3000 minutes played over the past 3 seasons). I don't think of Marchisio as highly as others surely, because I think he had his best years as a DM/regista here which didn't last for a long time. Other than that he was good, but not special by any means. Still, what here offered here was quite unique and his calmness was always needed in the middle. His positioning and ability not to fuck up. I think we see his successor in Pellegrini while the only difference is that Lorenzo makes fucking stupid mistakes for no reasons and out of nowhere.

Gigi was/is amazing and I won't even discuss that here. I think that Szczesny will be a great replacement, though.

Caldara could be our man? Well, maybe. But Caldara might as well not be our man and totally screw up our defense for upcoming year. It's a gamble.

Also, Gigi is gonna retire. We're not gonna make any money out of him. Same goes for Khedira. Marchisio? I don't think we'll sell, but if we do, we surely won't earn money on him since he's not really young. Also, we're not (and we should not) sell Chiellini.

And no, you should not expect a top quality CM. Because we're not gonna sign a top quality player unless we sell Sandro or Dybala -- which would be stupid. Don't expect big names. If we make moves in the middle it's going to be Can and Pellegrini.

 

[juve103423]

I agree with most of that. I know we are not selling any of those all players except for maybe Mandzukic and if we were to sell Chiellini (wouldnt happen). By getting rid of I meant when they retire. Overall, CM and CB will be places with need of reinforcement (unless Rugani and Caldara explodes - which I find too unlikely too). Add to that a better RB and some filler players (sturaros), but that I trust Beppe will provide. I would say we have seen more radical changes recent years and I think we got some very good players on the remaining positions. We just need some more athleticism, power, youth and desire from those guys replacing the few oldies.

 

[Ventus]

Marotta indeed will have nightmares this mercato.

He will not have the luxury to lose objectives, otherwise we could be $#@!ed before the season even start

He should start by not selling his best players for a starter. We wouldn't have this midfield issue otherwise.

 

[Xperd]

Makes me hate our players for performing the way they did in Turin

Fuck you Buffon and Chiellini just fuck you

 

[CrimsonianKing]

If we give in without a fight I'll be so pissed beyond belief. Go at them damnit!

 

[Juventinoo]

waaaaw Roma made it, qualified !!! hope we do ...

 

[Juventus 32]

I hope Chiellini and Buffon watched the Roma game! DAI CAZZO! :flag1:

 

[Mike-e-y]

If we can see off real then this has all of a sudden turned into a very winnable tournament for us. Bayern, Liverpool and Roma?!

 

[Niku]

Right Juventus, go now and advance to semifinals.