[CL] Champions League 2012/13 (65 Viewers)

[Nzoric]

I agree with Bianconero_AUS all the way in this discussion. The 80s and 90s are "long gone", and we have everything to prove in this competition, a competition which by the way is incredibly difficult this year. Notice how many good teams there actually are. Teams such as Dortmund, Shakhtar, PSG, Malaga, Anderlecht etc. We're "just another team" in this competition as it now stands, with everything to prove. Top 8 in Europe, my ass. We come from 10 draws in a row in Europe, only beating Nordsjælland along the way, and even before that we had a reputation for choking big time in Europe. We're building something for the future. It would be a disappointment to be eliminated, but definitely not embarrassing. If it's Chelsea and Shakhtar that go through, it won't come as a shock to anyone but the most deluded of juventini and Serie-A fans.

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. We were 49 games undefeated in Serie A, and however you twist it Shakhtar and Nordsjælland are teams that we must beat. The quality we have on the field is recognized not only by Juventini and Serie A followers but by anyone who knows football. We have the very best goalkeeper in the world, two world class CB's, Pirlo is the best regista in the world, Arturo and Marchisio are recognized top players. We have a better team than Chelsea on paper and we should put it to good use.

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Making apologies to make our blatant failure less apparent is not going to cut it, we had an OK group and we should've qualified by now. We should have beat Nordsjælland and we would already be in the knock out round.

 

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[Hængebøffer]

Nah, I haven't got a degree in pedagogy which I think is needed.

No, you just can't. Stop being an arrogant prick and tell us the differences between Dortmund last year, and us this year. I can give you one - they struggled more than we do.

 

[LiquidPLP]

I see it this way: If Quag keeps his current form and Vucinic comes back we have a very good chance beating Chelsea. I recognize Vucinic and Quag as our best forwards right now while Giovinco is always dangerous when gets on from the bench against tired defenders. Other formations don't leave a shadow of a doubt, maybe the right wing where Licht is struggilng in 3-5-2 a lot so I hope Isla will keep improving his form (2 assists in CL already).

 

[Maddy]

No, you just can't. Stop being an arrogant prick and tell us the differences between Dortmund last year, and us this year. I can give you one - they struggled more than we do.

Your tone isn't very conducive for the discussion.

 

[Jem83]

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. We were 49 games undefeated in Serie A, and however you twist it Shakhtar and Nordsjælland are teams that we must beat. The quality we have on the field is recognized not only by Juventini and Serie A followers but by anyone who knows football. We have the very best goalkeeper in the world, two world class CB's, Pirlo is the best regista in the world, Arturo and Marchisio are recognized top players. We have a better team than Chelsea on paper and we should put it to good use.

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Making apologies to make our blatant failure less apparent is not going to cut it, we had an OK group and we should've qualified by now. We should have beat Nordsjælland and we would already be in the knock out round.

We have the necessary tools to progress, hence why I said it would be disappointing. I'm just with Bianconero_AUS in saying it wouldn't be embarrassing. The reasons for this stance are two-fold: 1) respecting the current level of quality all across the competition that is the Champions League, 2) recognizing that both Chelsea's and Shakhtar's respective squads have more CL experience than us currently (I will remind you that despite of Shakhtar's poor showing in the CL last season, at least they participated, which gives experience, and the season before they finished first in their group, ahead of Arsenal!)

You may resort to pure numbers, which team has the best squad on paper etc. as much as you like, but what Juventus currently doesn't have is hands-on experience of playing together in the Champions League. It is a factor that isn't easy to measure, but the importance of this factor is still there, and I think it showed both against Shakhtar at home and Nordsjælland away.

It will definitely be disappointing to go out, but it can't come as a shock, that's our stance.

 

[Nzoric]

We should cover our faces in shame if we fail to progress from this group, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Jem83]

Do what you must. All I know is that Shakhtar were playing the likes of Arsenal and Barcelona when we were losing against teams such as Cagliari, Palermo and Lecce in Serie-A under Delneri. Shakhtar have been regular participants in the CL and that counts for something. Yes, we are better than them on paper, but football, as it has always shown, is not always about that. And yes, we have grown alot since then, under Conte, and we are a much better side now. Still, we can't just barge into this competition expecting to easily push Shakhtar and Chelsea aside. It just doesn't work that way. When we play to our best, of course we can beat both of those teams, but it's silly to think that their CL experience counts for nothing and that everything that matters are names, squads on paper etc. Experience is key in this competition.

 

[Hængebøffer]

Your tone isn't very conducive for the discussion.

Like your behaviour.

 

[Hængebøffer]

We should cover our faces in shame if we fail to progress from this group, that's all I'm saying.

Can't tell if you're sarcastic. It will be a failure, but not an embarrassment.

 

[Nzoric]

Do what you must. All I know is that Shakhtar were playing the likes of Arsenal and Barcelona when we were losing against teams such as Cagliari, Palermo and Lecce in Serie-A under Delneri. Shakhtar have been regular participants in the CL and that counts for something. Yes, we are better than them on paper, but football, as it has always shown, is not always about that. And yes, we have grown alot since then, under Conte, and we are a much better side now. Still, we can't just barge into this competition expecting to easily push Shakhtar and Chelsea aside. It just doesn't work that way. When we play to our best, of course we can beat both of those teams, but it's silly to think that their CL experience counts for nothing and that everything that matters are names, squads on paper etc. Experience is key in this competition.

If I felt that Shakhtar or Chelsea were teams commanding of our utmost respect I wouldn't have this stance. I watched the games and our failure is solely pinned on us, for not taking the chances and playing terrible football for periods. If we played a good game and were outplayed I would've kept my mouth shot, but our performance against Shakhtar was cringe worthy and don't get me started on our blatant failure against the Danes.

 

[Maddy]

Like your behaviour.

You are most welcome to ignore me. I will not lose out.

 

[Jem83]

If I felt that Shakhtar or Chelsea were teams commanding of our utmost respect I wouldn't have this stance. I watched the games and our failure is solely pinned on us, for not taking the chances and playing terrible football for periods. If we played a good game and were outplayed I would've kept my mouth shot, but our performance against Shakhtar was cringe worthy and don't get me started on our blatant failure against the Danes.

I hear you and I know what you're getting at here, but when I talk about experience, though, I'm talking about something that for instance results in getting that important point away from home like Shakhtar did at Juventus Stadium, just because they have their CL away game tactics figured out from having done so several times in the recent past. An even better example of what experience in this competition might lead to, is what we saw happen in injury time of injury time on Stamford Bridge last night. When they got that corner, every cell in my body informed me that they were gonna score. It's just something you do when you have experience, and are the current champions of Europe. Experience makes you edge out your opponents when it comes to the little things, the margins etc. It's a bitch, but it's part of the game, and we're lacking it.

For instance, experience would see us beat Nordsjælland away, despite not playing well. We just didn't know how to do it.

Edit: What I wrote about the Chelsea match may be countered by saying: well, don't both of those teams have experience? They do, but Chelsea have more, and they also have more quality, which was the difference last night. So there are many factors.

 

[Nzoric]

I understand you, I just don't agree that it isn't a shock and that we weren't expected to progress further than this. We have a CL winner, Buffon, Chiellini, Barzagli, Vucinic all players with considerable CHL experience and all players of considerably higher quality than what Shakhtar and Nordsjælland have.

 

[Jem83]

I understand you, I just don't agree that it isn't a shock and that we weren't expected to progress further than this. We have a CL winner, Buffon, Chiellini, Barzagli, Vucinic all players with considerable CHL experience and all players of considerably higher quality than what Shakhtar and Nordsjælland have.

Indeed, and there's also a very thin line between our stances here, so ... It's all good.

All juventini will be disappointed if we go out in the group stage, including myself. I do recognize the quality we possess in the squad. I can't speak for Bianconero_AUS and the others who share my views on this topic, but my own reason for participating in this discussion is that I feel that there are so many teams in the CL now who deserve respect, and have more experience with the current CL format than we do. Two of them are in our group, and my stance is purely that, because of the CL experience of these two sides, it wouldn't be a shock if we crash out. That should be well documented now, however, so I'll retire from the discussion with that

 

[JuveJay]

We should cover our faces in shame if we fail to progress from this group, that's all I'm saying.

We have the current champions and a team who have outplayed the current champions in both games in our group.

You severely underestimate how good Shakhtar are, and that's basically where your argument fails. This group was always 2 from 3, and not a lot between the 3. There would be disappointment but absolutely no shame in not qualifying from this group.

 

[Hængebøffer]

We have the current champions and a team who have outplayed the current champions in both games in our group.

You severely underestimate how good Shakhtar are, and that's basically where your argument fails. This group was always 2 from 3, and not a lot between the 3. There would be disappointment but absolutely no shame in not qualifying from this group.

We only really struggled against Shaktar, but even in that game, we created the biggest chances and should've scored 3-4 goals.

 

[Cuti]

Gary Neville yesterday on Sky Sports prior to the games. "Chelsea were lucky against Juventus to not lose in the first game"

 

[Jem83]

Gary Neville yesterday on Sky Sports prior to the games. "Chelsea were lucky against Juventus to not lose in the first game"

They were, but 1) Neville will never miss an opportunity to bash Man United's rivals and 2) Chelsea had the quality, experience and the little bit of extra luck which ensues from that, to still come away with a point.

We're a quality side, too, but....sigh... I think this topic is a matter of, either you know what experience in a competition might mean for a team, or you don't. It's that simple.

Edit: This was just a side-remark, I'm officially gone now. Hitting the gym. Later peeps. *Poof*

 

[Nzoric]

We have the current champions and a team who have outplayed the current champions in both games in our group.

You severely underestimate how good Shakhtar are, and that's basically where your argument fails. This group was always 2 from 3, and not a lot between the 3. There would be disappointment but absolutely no shame in not qualifying from this group.

I disagree, I think we're better than that. It all comes down to us failing against Nordsjælland. If we bagged three against Nordsjælland we would be sitting pretty on 10 points with 2 games to go. If we don't go through I'm positive that the draw against Nordsjælland will be the determining factor, if there is no shame in that then I don't know where there is

 

[Hængebøffer]

They were, but 1) Neville will never miss an opportunity to bash Man United's rivals and 2) Chelsea had the quality, experience and the little bit of extra luck which ensues from that, to still come away with a point.

We're a quality side, too, but....sigh... I think this topic is a matter of, either you know what experience in a competition might mean for a team, or you don't. It's that simple.

Agree, but don't forget our inability to convert chances to goals, which, in CL, will be punished. It also has something to do with experience, but imo, it's the lack of quality up-front.