Capitano Giorgio Chiellini (18 Viewers)

[Elvin]

Losing despite having a 3-0 lead after 45 minutes of play? That's choking.

Personal choking of Maldini? Even if he did choke, he won CL, so is not a CL choker (highest possible standard in football).

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No chance of getting to any consensus in this debate with @Elvin with those examples… quite far away from even beginning to prove any point here with those silly Maldini or Del Piero comparisons because of a few unlucky moments/games in an almost 20years spanning career..

Unless you guys find some Sergio Ramos moments when he choked and cost them(or eventually didn’t actually cost them that much because overall those numerous brainfarts were brushed away and went unnoticed because those sides were stronger and with way more individual quality than the ones Chiellini had to play with for large parts of his career) Real Madrid or Spain that is, then maybe there might actually be a chance to have him understand how out of place he is when he labels Chiellini or Buffon as chokers based on a few debatable episodes in a almost 20years long career which they spent with a club that went through hell and back up.

Dude. Neither Chiellini nor Buffon wonn won the most prestigious trophy in club football. And in many of those disqualifictions they were at fault personally, not because of having weaker squads. Chokerness is dismissed once you finally win the damn thing, which Robben did for example.

Both Buffon and Chiellini are great footballers and both are CL chokers. Radical truth. Not the end of the world and not offensive.

 

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[Alin]

Personal choking of Maldini? Even if he did choke, he won CL, so is not a CL choker (highest possible standard in football).

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Dude. Neither Chiellini nor Buffon wonn won the most prestigious trophy in club football. And in many of those disqualifictions they were at fault personally, not because of having weaker squads. Chokerness is dismissed once you finally win the damn thing, which Robben did for example.

Both Buffon and Chiellini are great footballers and both are CL chokers. Radical truth. Not the end of the world and not offensive.

So basically by your logic only who won UCL is not a choker and somehow Juve 2007-2022 had the same quality in their squads as for example Real Madrid during the same time period as obviously the only difference was that they had the legendary flawless Ramos while we only had the choker Chiellini to show for when everyone else in those teams were very much the same quality position by position along with us ofc also getting the same preferential treatment from referees as the others we were competing with… right… and altough initially you cited one or two specific episodes that lead you to labelling them as chokers now you are claiming that multiple CL exits were precisely because of them, but yeah i guess anything to try and prove a point no matter how exaggerated that is.

At this stage i genuinely don’t know why we are even wasting our time on this.

 

[Bianconero81]

So basically by your logic only who won UCL is not a choker and somehow Juve 2007-2022 had the same quality in their squads as for example Real Madrid during the same time period as obviously the only difference was that they had the legendary flawless Ramos while we only had the choker Chiellini to show for when everyone else in those teams were very much the same quality position by position along with us ofc also getting the same preferential treatment from referees as the others we were competing with… right… and altough initially you cited one or two specific episodes that lead you to labelling them as chokers now you are claiming that multiple CL exits were precisely because of them, but yeah i guess anything to try and prove a point no matter how exaggerated that is.

At this stage i genuinely don’t know why we are even wasting our time on this.

Dude. It's Elvin, the greatest lawyer in the history of Azerbaijan. Put some respect on his name.

 

[Juve92]

Personal choking of Maldini? Even if he did choke, he won CL, so is not a CL choker (highest possible standard in football).

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Dude. Neither Chiellini nor Buffon wonn won the most prestigious trophy in club football. And in many of those disqualifictions they were at fault personally, not because of having weaker squads. Chokerness is dismissed once you finally win the damn thing, which Robben did for example.

Both Buffon and Chiellini are great footballers and both are CL chokers. Radical truth. Not the end of the world and not offensive.

 

[Strickland]

Dude. Neither Chiellini nor Buffon wonn won the most prestigious trophy in club football. And in many of those disqualifictions they were at fault personally, not because of having weaker squads. Chokerness is dismissed once you finally win the damn thing, which Robben did for example.

Both Buffon and Chiellini are great footballers and both are CL chokers. Radical truth. Not the end of the world and not offensive.

hard to agree there. too lazy to do one for Chiello, so I'll do only Buffon.

02/03 we lost the final, 0:0 in 120 minutes, 2:3 on penalties, enough said
03/04 we went out against Deportivo 0:1 and 0:1, we scored 0 goals. Their goals were through no fault of Buffon
04/05 we went out against Liverpool, we scored 0 goals. Again their goals were through no fault of Buffon
05/06 we lost against Arsenal, we scored 0 goals. you could argue that Buffon didn't judge the situation well enough on the Henry goal in the 2:0 loss.
08/09 we went out against Chelsea 0:1 and 2:2, Buffon fucked up a nasty deflection in the 2:2, rest of the goals were not on him
09/10 dark ages, enough said
12/13 we went out against Bayern 0:4, we scored 0 goals. Buffon fucked up that nasty Alaba deflection against Bayern, but we were totally outclassed with or without it that goal.
13/14 I don't remember a single thing Buffon did wrong in that embarrassing group stage elimination
14/15 lost the final against Barcelona. I guess Buffon could've done better on the 2nd goal in that final, but for me it's not a mistake
15/16 we went out against Bayern who in the end scored 6 goals on us. not a single one even remotely Buffons fault imo.
16/17 we lost the Cardiff final 1:4. I think Buffon could've done better on the Casemiro deflection, but again, similarly to 12/13 we were totally outclassed in that 2nd half.
17/18 I don't think Buffon made any mistakes in the 4 goals Real scored. maybe the 3rd one were Marcelo dribbled past him was savable, but again hardly a mistake.

the only one were I could say yeah, perhaps we exited because Buffon wasn't on his A game was the 08/09 against Chelsea. and even then I wouldn't go as far as saying Buffon was at fault personally for Juventus being eliminated. Was Gigi perfect in all of our CL eliminations? Nope, he wasn't, but he surely wasn't a CL choker and surely wasn't personally at fault for many of our eliminations. I feel the same way about Chiellini, just too lazy to check when he was playing, when he wasn't and rewatch the goals again.

the cold hard reality is that pre-Calciopoli Juventus was always one of the CL favorites, but post-Calciopoli Juve in terms of resources has always been 9-10th in Europe. getting to those CL finals and eliminating Barcelona and Real Madrid in the process was already seriously punching above our weight.

 

[JuveJay]

Talking about choking in team sports lol.

 

[Alin]

And one other thing worth pointing out is that basically if we label players by the same logic that @Elvin is applying to this narrative then it means that context and details are irrelevant, for example the fact that the cunt Cakir (turkish referee in 2015 UCL final) is directly responsible for Buffon and Chiellini being labeled as chokers because he nonchalantly refused us a clear PK in the second half of that final while the score was still 1:1 with all the momentum on our side, meaning essentially that he prevented us from going on to win it(or at least to have a fair chance to) and as a result of that poor refereeing decision this is the way two legendary players will be remembered by some, as being supposedly chokers in this competition, again, based on a wrong refereeing decision that went against Juventus and them that one time when it mattered most.

 

[Elvin]

hard to agree there. too lazy to do one for Chiello, so I'll do only Buffon.

02/03 we lost the final, 0:0 in 120 minutes, 2:3 on penalties, enough said
03/04 we went out against Deportivo 0:1 and 0:1, we scored 0 goals. Their goals were through no fault of Buffon
04/05 we went out against Liverpool, we scored 0 goals. Again their goals were through no fault of Buffon
05/06 we lost against Arsenal, we scored 0 goals. you could argue that Buffon didn't judge the situation well enough on the Henry goal in the 2:0 loss.
08/09 we went out against Chelsea 0:1 and 2:2, Buffon fucked up a nasty deflection in the 2:2, rest of the goals were not on him
09/10 dark ages, enough said
12/13 we went out against Bayern 0:4, we scored 0 goals. Buffon fucked up that nasty Alaba deflection against Bayern, but we were totally outclassed with or without it that goal.
13/14 I don't remember a single thing Buffon did wrong in that embarrassing group stage elimination
14/15 lost the final against Barcelona. I guess Buffon could've done better on the 2nd goal in that final, but for me it's not a mistake
15/16 we went out against Bayern who in the end scored 6 goals on us. not a single one even remotely Buffons fault imo.
16/17 we lost the Cardiff final 1:4. I think Buffon could've done better on the Casemiro deflection, but again, similarly to 12/13 we were totally outclassed in that 2nd half.
17/18 I don't think Buffon made any mistakes in the 4 goals Real scored. maybe the 3rd one were Marcelo dribbled past him was savable, but again hardly a mistake.

the only one were I could say yeah, perhaps we exited because Buffon wasn't on his A game was the 08/09 against Chelsea. and even then I wouldn't go as far as saying Buffon was at fault personally for Juventus being eliminated. Was Gigi perfect in all of our CL eliminations? Nope, he wasn't, but he surely wasn't a CL choker and surely wasn't personally at fault for many of our eliminations. I feel the same way about Chiellini, just too lazy to check when he was playing, when he wasn't and rewatch the goals again.

the cold hard reality is that pre-Calciopoli Juventus was always one of the CL favorites, but post-Calciopoli Juve in terms of resources has always been 9-10th in Europe. getting to those CL finals and eliminating Barcelona and Real Madrid in the process was already seriously punching above our weight.

Dude this whole debate started with his mistake together with Chiellini that resulted in the Ronaldo bycicle. And you missed it

 

[Strickland]

Dude this whole debate started with his mistake together with Chiellini that resulted in the Ronaldo bycicle. And you missed it

so from 12 seasons Buffon competed with Juve in CL you pick one game in his 12th year when he was what, 37 yo?, and label him CL choker? or do the previous 11 attempts still count here? sorry, a bit hard to follow your logic here.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Guess he just can't handle those high-pressure cup competitions.

Spoiler

Oh wait.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Guess he just can't handle those high-pressure cup competitions.

Spoiler

Oh wait.

It's not the CL thoooo

And Buffon? He only won the World Cup. Pshhh... lame!

 

[zizinho]

hard to agree there. too lazy to do one for Chiello, so I'll do only Buffon.

02/03 we lost the final, 0:0 in 120 minutes, 2:3 on penalties, enough said
03/04 we went out against Deportivo 0:1 and 0:1, we scored 0 goals. Their goals were through no fault of Buffon
04/05 we went out against Liverpool, we scored 0 goals. Again their goals were through no fault of Buffon
05/06 we lost against Arsenal, we scored 0 goals. you could argue that Buffon didn't judge the situation well enough on the Henry goal in the 2:0 loss.
08/09 we went out against Chelsea 0:1 and 2:2, Buffon fucked up a nasty deflection in the 2:2, rest of the goals were not on him
09/10 dark ages, enough said
12/13 we went out against Bayern 0:4, we scored 0 goals. Buffon fucked up that nasty Alaba deflection against Bayern, but we were totally outclassed with or without it that goal.
13/14 I don't remember a single thing Buffon did wrong in that embarrassing group stage elimination
14/15 lost the final against Barcelona. I guess Buffon could've done better on the 2nd goal in that final, but for me it's not a mistake
15/16 we went out against Bayern who in the end scored 6 goals on us. not a single one even remotely Buffons fault imo.
16/17 we lost the Cardiff final 1:4. I think Buffon could've done better on the Casemiro deflection, but again, similarly to 12/13 we were totally outclassed in that 2nd half.
17/18 I don't think Buffon made any mistakes in the 4 goals Real scored. maybe the 3rd one were Marcelo dribbled past him was savable, but again hardly a mistake.

the only one were I could say yeah, perhaps we exited because Buffon wasn't on his A game was the 08/09 against Chelsea. and even then I wouldn't go as far as saying Buffon was at fault personally for Juventus being eliminated. Was Gigi perfect in all of our CL eliminations? Nope, he wasn't, but he surely wasn't a CL choker and surely wasn't personally at fault for many of our eliminations. I feel the same way about Chiellini, just too lazy to check when he was playing, when he wasn't and rewatch the goals again.

the cold hard reality is that pre-Calciopoli Juventus was always one of the CL favorites, but post-Calciopoli Juve in terms of resources has always been 9-10th in Europe. getting to those CL finals and eliminating Barcelona and Real Madrid in the process was already seriously punching above our weight.

So based on this, Buffon is a choker but Del Piero is not? Look how many times we went out without even scoring. By your logic @Elvin

 

[Elvin]

So based on this, Buffon is a choker but Del Piero is not? Look how many times we went out without even scoring. By your logic @Elvin

I said it a million times: winning it just once absolves one of any choker claims, no matter what happens/happened before or since.

Chiellini and Buffon and every other Juve player since 1996 are CL chokers. Brutal truth.

 

[zizinho]

I said it a million times: winning it just once absolves one of any choker claims, no matter what happens/happened before or since.

Chiellini and Buffon and every other Juve player since 1996 are CL chokers. Brutal truth.

So Messi didn't choke many CL and WC and Copa America ties away, because he won already?

 

[Elvin]

So Messi didn't choke many CL and WC and Copa America ties away, because he won already?

yep, you can say he choked right then and there, but you can't call him a choker in general.

 

[zizinho]

yep

Didn't know lawyers could rewrite meaning of words, that's quite convenient. I'll let you know if I need something

 

[Elvin]

Didn't know lawyers could rewrite meaning of words, that's quite convenient. I'll let you know if I need something

I clarified in my edit.

You can't call Buffon and Chiellini chokers in general either, because they've won a lot, but you CAN call them CL chokers.

Simple really.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Too simple really

 

[Alin]

It must also be said that in all honesty the ultimate chokers are actually Pelle and Maradona(with other honorable mentions being Cannavaro, Nedved, Ronaldo R9, Ibrahimovic, Sivori, Baggio, Cantona), this bunch never even came remotely close to winning the UCL, it’s just another embarassing fact that can’t be debated or erased and we just need to accept it as we all already know that is what they will be labeled as whenever their name comes up next to the CL/EC subject in the history books.

 

[Karim30]

so from 12 seasons Buffon competed with Juve in CL you pick one game in his 12th year when he was what, 37 yo?, and label him CL choker? or do the previous 11 attempts still count here? sorry, a bit hard to follow your logic here.

Logic? There is none.