Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (76 Viewers)

[Dasaev]

Whilst not being a Juve fan (my allegiances lay with Parma), I've enjoyed reading this thread.

To anyone who's watched Italian football in the last decade it's been self evident that there was a murky underbelly and that the letter of the law was not evenly applied to all teams. When the Calciopoli story finally broke it was of no surprise...or perhaps a little as I half-expected that the truth would remain suppressed until time immemorial.

Do I think that those found guilty are so? Yes. Do I think that many of the kingpins went unpunished? Yes underscored. We've only been made privy to the tip of the iceberg, courtesy of what's been reported in the media and documentation released by the law courts...but even then, how can anyone possibly know what truly occurred unless they were in fact instrumental within the whole insidious system?

Gsol, I admire your endeavour and your enthusiasm. Your research of the topic is quite clearly thorough but like any budding investigative reporter or truth-digger, you're having to rely purely on media coverage, articles and documentation as your sources, and we know how scrupulously clean, objective and reliable both the media and the law courts are in Italy. My point being, you're well versed on findings made available to us, the little people, but you'll probably never be privileged enough to know what truly went on. I doubt that the authorities are even privy to that.

I just think it's a point worth remembering without any disrespect intended.

Good display last night by the way guys!

 

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[gsol]

I understand your point but there is something that you should be made aware of. This case was a sporting case of a team that is a publically traded company. The law requires that all information revealed in the case be made public as a result. Though the media in Italian is terrible and there is little to trust in the Italian system teh fact is that the trial documents in ther entirety needed to be made public and was not made public via the media. I have souced the FIGC website where the official trial documents are posted. Seeing as these were the documents used to sentence Juventus I find it senseless to call them into question. Media yes, definitely, but trial documents are official and public. Much of the truth lies in them.

 

[Snoop]

Snoop, I have the feeling you are angry at this guy and anyone who agrees with him. Why? Did you read everything what he posted: wiretaps, declarations, trial documents, etc.??

If you did, isn´t it clear that it makes a lot of sense what he is talking about and that Moggi is maybe not a devil what he was painted, that maybe there is a conspiracy in which even our new owners took part of? It all sounds very reasonable and Gsol is very convincing. He also backs up his statements perfectly. I like his point of view, I like the efforts he made. He does know a lot about this things, more than any for us. And I am personally very angry at people like Salman and Denco for not reading his pots properly and not accepting anything they don´t want to hear. And on top of that they are abusing him. Man, I would be pissed as hell too...... all they do is trolling and ranting on about something they haven´t read one bit, unlike Gsol who is very, very knowledgeable and informed.

All the guys wants is to shed some light and information and we Juventini should be pleased with the fact that our club wasn´t cheating and that they deserved every title they fought so hard for. Isn´t that better than being labelled a cheater and mafia? Are you happy we got relegated, lost money, world class players, directors for practically nothing?

for nothing? man stop fooling yourself, I am not against Moggi because of what papers wrote about him. I was disgusted of the favors of the referees in the past years. there are tens or hundreds incidents that made me sick in the past, all thatwas expected to end some day, and that was last year. This has nothing to do with being a fan or not, I am a fan of justice before being a fan of Juventus. I was expecting heavier punishment, but the punishment we received wasn't any easy one, did other clubs involved in this dirt pay for the punishment fairly? Maybe no, but is that that important for us? These are all past, we have a clean and new and even better Juventus these days, I love it more now this way, by starting from scratch. Are there still cheats these days? maybe, but let's not be paranoids, we can't say that this soon, sure refereeing mistakes will happen, sure some referees might involve in these dirty works, but let's not relate it to other clubs or federation this soon, let's not be losers like Inter fans and moan for every wrong decision against us, let's do the business in football fields, that's where I am interested only, if that makes me less fan, then fuck it, call me bad fan or whatever you want. That's what gsol idiot does, that's why me Salman or others think of him that way..

 

[gsol]

First of all make your list of favors. I guarantee I match it or better with games where Juve were held back by the same referees or where other teams benefitted from the same errors. Go ahead. Everybody is an expert so let's hear it.

Don't say you are a fan of justice either. If you were you'd be outraged by Calciopoli. You call being convicted with no evidence justice? Look up justice.

It is important that other clubs didn't pay because now Juve has to rebuild while they remained strong. That's a problem of the present not the past.

i don't give a rats ass what you think of me. try proving me wrong before calling me an idiot though...good luck

 

[denco]

If people refuse to read my posts at least read this one

It doesn’t bother me when someone disagrees with me so much as who and why. It has been said that I am arrogant and that may be true but that is only because I know what I am saying. If this thread had to do with basketball I wouldn’t be arrogant because I don’t know anything about the sport and would therefore not be so adamant about things. When it comes to this scandal I know what I’m saying. I’ve been asked if I dug up the evidence on my own when the evidence is publically posted for all to see and I’ve provided links.

I get upset when a guy like Denco shows up admitting he doesn’t speak Italian meaning he has no comprehension of the trial documents. He has no comprehension of the judge declarations. He has no comprehension of the wiretaps. Yet he calls everything written into question.

Denco, you are in no position to contest anything based on the fact that you have no means by which to understand and accurately interpret it. I’m lucky enough to have that capability and others that do sound remarkably similar to me. But if this case happened in China and all the evidence was in Chinese I would have never said a word because I would have been as limited as you. Your problem is that you think that your posts based only on personal opinion and prejudices are valid when they are not. You are way out of your element.

- No match fixing occurred in 2004-2005
- No wiretaps revealed article 6 violations
- No financial transfers by Juventus were out of line
- No Moggi system existed
- Evidence in the case was tampered with
- The referee selection process was never compromised
- The commissioner of the trial not only was a former Inter Director but a Director of Telecom Italia which provided the taps
- Telecom is owned by Tronchetti who also owns Pirelli (Inter’s biggest sponsor) and TIM (FIGC’s biggest sponsor)

These things are not up for debate like Denco seems to think. These things were confirmed by the very judges presiding over the trial. They were confirmed by La Guardia Della Finanza (Revenue Investigators), they were confirmed in the very sentences that are now available to the public. They were confirmed by the company’s (very public) corporate structure.

You can disagree (I’m not sure why you want to) but you are wrong. These are facts whether you like them or not. The trial was a farce because Juventus was not found guilty of what they were convicted of (Article 6 violations). They were found guilty of Article 1 violations but that would only constitute a point deduction as high as 5 points.

Denco, accept that this is a lost cause. You don’t have the basis to form an argument that can discredit the very evidence that exists (not that I created). I expect a tone like yours from Interisti because they fundamentally want to believe that they were cheated and that Juve were responsible but that you a Juventino is refusing to accept this is nothing short of confusing.

You say you use common sense yet you are trying to discredit trial evidence based on absolutely nothing.

Juve were found not guilty of match fixing/conditioning etc. but were convicted of it for a variety of reasons (mostly financial). Would it be the first corporate scandal in our lifetime?

Denco use common sense and accept your limitations. I wrote what was found. I cited actual legal documents and more. You call it all into question not being able to even understand the evidence that has been posted. If I’m arrogant then what are you?

If you were to say “its personal, I’m not so much contesting the facts as I am contesting you because of how you come off” I would understand. Frankly if you see it as a personal challenge because you don’t like me then fine. I don’t really care if you don’t like me as I’m not here to make friends. But to contest facts as though they were my own is absurd. I didn’t write the sentences…I read them and was shocked at what I found. That’s why I presented them to everyone here.

If you can’t understand it then I’m sorry but don’t think you are in a position to question it. It’s a documented fact that is not up for debate.

Okay please cite an example where I have abused you and tell me where I have written that i don't like you.

Its snoop that cannot stand your ass and I am not snoop as I have said before you are interesting.

I may not be in Italy but you don't have to be Italian to know you cannot bring down an empire on the basis of the evidence you have presented

Dasaev said exactly what I have been saying and that it is impossible for you to be privy to all the facts.

You say I should use my common sense and that is exactly what I have been doing.

If my brother tells me that he is being jailed for 20 years for stealing a toothbrush because some ppl that did not like him and they had the jury and the judge in their pocket

Would i take his word for it when I know he has been making millions for years but no idea how he has been making the millions?

Thats what you are telling me to do here, to take part of the entire evidence and ignore the rest of it because you have done your research.

Another thing that I don't like is you say you have posed questions to me and i dont answer but when i ask you what particular questions you say who the fuck am i that you should treat me differently.

Then you say I am ignorant of the facts, ignorant of how it works in Italy and just plain ignorant and say i insult you and don't like you

 

[Snoop]

@ Gsol: I am not here to prove or convince people something, that's what you do. I like reading posts here, share my opinions, get the latest news of Juventus and have fun with my fellow Juventini, that's it. Wasting huge effort for brick-headed like you for nothing won't help me.

 

[ReBeL]

Hear hear, ReBeL, Ze Tahir

He may mean another mod, Jack


Look. I may seem biased here, but I don't support anybody on an absolute basis.

All what I said was that generalizing a "stupid" description was an exaggeration.

 

[gsol]

@ Gsol: I am not here to prove or convince people something, that's what you do. I like reading posts here, share my opinions, get the latest news of Juventus and have fun with my fellow Juventini, that's it. Wasting huge effort for brick-headed like you for nothing won't help me.

I'm brick headed? I present evidence that certain people refuse to accept and I'm brickheaded. This is like the pot calling the kettle black no?

 

[gsol]

“I may not be in Italy but you don't have to be Italian to know you cannot bring down an empire on the basis of the evidence you have presented”

They didn’t bring it down they caused it major problems and yes they did it with no evidence. Not up for debate. If you are hinting at hidden motives then we agree. There had to be people that wanted it. But there is no hidden proof because if there was it would be public. Why would they convict them and then hide why. That’s not common sense talking. That’s a last ditch effort to make a point Denco. Bottom line you don’t speak Italian, that was my point. You are in no position to pretend to know anything.

“Would i take his word for it when I know he has been making millions for years but no idea how he has been making the millions?”
You’re hinting that your “brother” would be guilty of something but Juve weren’t. Where were all of Juve’s benefits that were so obvious? And don’t say the refs were obviously favoring them because you are wasting your time. I already posted plenty of examples where the exact opposite occurred.
By the way, no matter what I respond to you.

 

[Seven]

If people refuse to read my posts at least read this one

It doesn’t bother me when someone disagrees with me so much as who and why. It has been said that I am arrogant and that may be true but that is only because I know what I am saying. If this thread had to do with basketball I wouldn’t be arrogant because I don’t know anything about the sport and would therefore not be so adamant about things. When it comes to this scandal I know what I’m saying. I’ve been asked if I dug up the evidence on my own when the evidence is publically posted for all to see and I’ve provided links.

I get upset when a guy like Denco shows up admitting he doesn’t speak Italian meaning he has no comprehension of the trial documents. He has no comprehension of the judge declarations. He has no comprehension of the wiretaps. Yet he calls everything written into question.

Denco, you are in no position to contest anything based on the fact that you have no means by which to understand and accurately interpret it. I’m lucky enough to have that capability and others that do sound remarkably similar to me. But if this case happened in China and all the evidence was in Chinese I would have never said a word because I would have been as limited as you. Your problem is that you think that your posts based only on personal opinion and prejudices are valid when they are not. You are way out of your element.

- No match fixing occurred in 2004-2005
- No wiretaps revealed article 6 violations
- No financial transfers by Juventus were out of line
- No Moggi system existed
- Evidence in the case was tampered with
- The referee selection process was never compromised
- The commissioner of the trial not only was a former Inter Director but a Director of Telecom Italia which provided the taps
- Telecom is owned by Tronchetti who also owns Pirelli (Inter’s biggest sponsor) and TIM (FIGC’s biggest sponsor)

These things are not up for debate like Denco seems to think. These things were confirmed by the very judges presiding over the trial. They were confirmed by La Guardia Della Finanza (Revenue Investigators), they were confirmed in the very sentences that are now available to the public. They were confirmed by the company’s (very public) corporate structure.

You can disagree (I’m not sure why you want to) but you are wrong. These are facts whether you like them or not. The trial was a farce because Juventus was not found guilty of what they were convicted of (Article 6 violations). They were found guilty of Article 1 violations but that would only constitute a point deduction as high as 5 points.

Denco, accept that this is a lost cause. You don’t have the basis to form an argument that can discredit the very evidence that exists (not that I created). I expect a tone like yours from Interisti because they fundamentally want to believe that they were cheated and that Juve were responsible but that you a Juventino is refusing to accept this is nothing short of confusing.

You say you use common sense yet you are trying to discredit trial evidence based on absolutely nothing.

Juve were found not guilty of match fixing/conditioning etc. but were convicted of it for a variety of reasons (mostly financial). Would it be the first corporate scandal in our lifetime?

Denco use common sense and accept your limitations. I wrote what was found. I cited actual legal documents and more. You call it all into question not being able to even understand the evidence that has been posted. If I’m arrogant then what are you?

If you were to say “its personal, I’m not so much contesting the facts as I am contesting you because of how you come off” I would understand. Frankly if you see it as a personal challenge because you don’t like me then fine. I don’t really care if you don’t like me as I’m not here to make friends. But to contest facts as though they were my own is absurd. I didn’t write the sentences…I read them and was shocked at what I found. That’s why I presented them to everyone here.

If you can’t understand it then I’m sorry but don’t think you are in a position to question it. It’s a documented fact that is not up for debate.

After reading a few of your posts I have come to the following conclusion: you fail to understand the importance of the voice of the public and more importantly you are clueless as to how Italians generally react to scandals. There are a couple of things you need to take into account when writing about an Italian football scandal:

1. Italians are always on the look for new scandals. They always see a conspiracy. Whether it be money sent and lost down south or socialist politics in Milano, "someone" is behind it.

2. If there's a conspiracy, the guilty must be punished at some point. Or the ones most likely to be found guilty. Either way, "someone" has to take a hit. The public demands so.

3. Football equals passion, which makes our situation even worse. There was never going to be a fair trial and I never bothered to take a look at the evidence, because no matter what happened, Juventus had to be punished. The public felt betrayed and the public needed a capro espiatorio.


I'm saying this of course assuming that Juventus were not or at least not that much guilty. IMHO there's a good chance they were. Moggi's a cheater. We laughed it off, but we knew he was. I see no need to bitch about it now. We knew about the risk we took.

Most importantly though all of this leads to only one conclusion:

Juventus had to be punished and there's nothing anyone can do about it anymore simply because that would cause public outrage. But hey, you can continue your little crusade for all I care, just realise that you're not making a difference and that Italian society simply does not work that way.

 

[gsol]

After reading a few of your posts I have come to the following conclusion: you fail to understand the importance of the voice of the public and more importantly you are clueless as to how Italians generally react to scandals. There are a couple of things you need to take into account when writing about an Italian football scandal:

1. Italians are always on the look for new scandals. They always see a conspiracy. Whether it be money sent and lost down south or socialist politics in Milano, "someone" is behind it.

2. If there's a conspiracy, the guilty must be punished at some point. Or the ones most likely to be found guilty. Either way, "someone" has to take a hit. The public demands so.

3. Football equals passion, which makes our situation even worse. There was never going to be a fair trial and I never bothered to take a look at the evidence, because no matter what happened, Juventus had to be punished. The public felt betrayed and the public needed a capro espiatorio.

I don't need to understand this. I agree totally with it and Judge Mario Serio confirmed it when he said that despite the lack of evidence Juventus were convicted based on the collective interests of the parties involved. Granted he was likely referring more to people like Tronchetti and Rossi than the public but I feel the public was a huge factor. I know Italy well. I lived there. The country is gossip hungry and love scandals and witch hunts. Up to that point I agree with you.

 

[Seven]

I don't need to understand this. I agree totally with it and Judge Mario Serio confirmed it when he said that despite the lack of evidence Juventus were convicted based on the collective interests of the parties involved. Granted he was likely referring more to people like Tronchetti and Rossi than the public but I feel the public was a huge factor. I know Italy well. I lived there. The country is gossip hungry and love scandals and witch hunts. Up to that point I agree with you.

But if you're taking this into account, why bother? Seriously, why bother? If you lived in Italy you know that's how it works. Especially because the entire case is so ambiguous. Sure, there are a lot of arguments that favour Juventus, as you have shown, but come on, we can all name a few incriminating factors from the top of our heads.

The only interesting possibility to me is write a paper about the entire case. A proper argument with proper evidence. Let us be frank: there's only one thing you can truly achieve and that is be better informed yourself. You're not going to clean Juve's name and you're not going to convince any fans with a couple of posts on an internet forum. You might as well put all that energy into one, decent paper.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Seven has said it better than anyone, now close this thread prego

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

But if you're taking this into account, why bother? Seriously, why bother? If you lived in Italy you know that's how it works. Especially because the entire case is so ambiguous. Sure, there are a lot of arguments that favour Juventus, as you have shown, but come on, we can all name a few incriminating factors from the top of our heads.

The only interesting possibility to me is write a paper about the entire case. A proper argument with proper evidence. Let us be frank: there's only one thing you can truly achieve and that is be better informed yourself. You're not going to clean Juve's name and you're not going to convince any fans with a couple of posts on an internet forum. You might as well put all that energy into one, decent paper.

I love it when Hector owns people.

 

[gsol]

But if you're taking this into account, why bother? Seriously, why bother? If you lived in Italy you know that's how it works. Especially because the entire case is so ambiguous. Sure, there are a lot of arguments that favour Juventus, as you have shown, but come on, we can all name a few incriminating factors from the top of our heads.

The only interesting possibility to me is write a paper about the entire case. A proper argument with proper evidence. Let us be frank: there's only one thing you can truly achieve and that is be better informed yourself. You're not going to clean Juve's name and you're not going to convince any fans with a couple of posts on an internet forum. You might as well put all that energy into one, decent paper.

That's already been taken into consideration. Here though people ask and I answer. Plenty have been informed here and appreciate it. Don't let a few people convince you that they are the majority.

 

[swag]

Whilst not being a Juve fan (my allegiances lay with Parma), I've enjoyed reading this thread.

I respect Parma fans. Not just because they're my favorite "provincial" team in Serie A (i.e., one that isn't Juve), but also of all the crap they had to go through financially with Parmalot -- and as a fan to see so much talent have to leave.

It's good seeing your posts here.

Cheers. int:

I don't need to understand this. I agree totally with it and Judge Mario Serio confirmed it when he said that despite the lack of evidence Juventus were convicted based on the collective interests of the parties involved. Granted he was likely referring more to people like Tronchetti and Rossi than the public but I feel the public was a huge factor. I know Italy well. I lived there. The country is gossip hungry and love scandals and witch hunts. Up to that point I agree with you.

It's particularly unfortunate, because both of how arbitrary it is and how nothing was done to protect the fans and the sport from similar scandals -- whether real or imaginary -- from happening again in the future.

The fans got f'ed over the most.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

That's already been taken into consideration. Here though people ask and I answer. Plenty have been informed here and appreciate it. Don't let a few people convince you that they are the majority.

Then why are you arguing? The majority here don't really like you, and the majority of Juve fans in the world don't care or know about you, plus, 90% of Italy are probably informed to some extent and nothing happened or is going to happen. So.....I say to you sir, don't let the majority convince you they are the few.

 

[gsol]

Don't speak for the majority. Most Juve fans were and are outraged and don't think nothing will happen. The cases and appeals aren't done and I receive more praise than criticism for what I write so a few people not liking me here means shit to me. I argue because people argue with me. Why should I let them think that they are right when I know they are not?

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

giusseppe we got to go for coffee one of these days

 

[Alen]

But if you're taking this into account, why bother? Seriously, why bother?

Hmmm, if Italians like scandals so much, won't "Juventus were sentenced without a single proof and it was a conspiracy against them by this guy and that guy" be another scandal ?
More "circenses" for the boring mornings and afternoons.