Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (65 Viewers)

[gsol]

Another thing I want to ask Denco is why he is so quick to believe the opinion of Jason Burke. Did he source anything? Did he reference anything? Where were his facts?

All he did was state a personal opinion on events that may or may not have taken place yet you have no problem agreeing with it. Could it be because you like what he is saying and don't really require further convincing?

I on the other hand have been demanded to post proof of riots, proof that I have documents, wiretaps, proof of financial ties, etc. and everytime I do it just gets swept under the rug and dimissed. That's hypocritical.

I showed how the trial lacked evidence. You claimed that the evidence was there but remained hidden. I find that grossly improbable considering they were relegating the team anyway but now it is your turn; do you have any proof that could lend credibility to your claim or is it just a theoretical possibility however improbable it may be?

 

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[gsol]

Salman

How many times do I have to post the same thing? When will it sink in?

Don’t bother with the already dismantled SIM Card excuse because you know the answer to that.

Did you not read the post I left regarding the arrests linked to the manipulated and computer generated phone tables?

Those calls may very well have been created by a computer and is likely why they only came up well after the trial. Needless to say Moggi has his engineers to court to dismantle that allegation.

 

[Cronios]

The reason that more evidence remains hidden, is because it would involve more teams and persons in the scandal, there definitely, is more evidence somewhere in those tapes,
but the point was to punish us only.
The investigation was aimed to harm Juve and Juve only,
the rest of the teams involved were, more or less, collateral victims, the evidence against them was gathered due to investigations on Juve and favorable teams/players/refs.
The rest of the facts remain hidden, the court had access to them but chose to ignore them. The media protected the other teams and did not publish them,
those evidence may include much more incriminating evidence, than the ones that were published, against Juve.
Gsol i dont think you will, ever, be able to get access, to information that could harm some powerful clubs/people.

Even though, the fact that we were demoted by insufficient evidence, remains
and proves how corrupted and injustice this trial was, BUT
it doesnt prove we are totally innocent either...

 

[gsol]

Sorry man but the tapes I have are the tapes used in court and all they show is that teh other teams were anything but collateral victims. The biggest questions on my mind were "what the hell did Juve do wrong?" and "how did Udinese not get investigated?".

 

[Cronios]

Sorry man but the tapes I have are the tapes used in court and all they show is that teh other teams were anything but collateral victims.

I meant, that there was no intention to harm anymore teams initially, not that they were not guilty...

The biggest questions on my mind were "what the hell did Juve do wrong?" and "how did Udinese not get investigated?".

Thats easy, i ll pull a m_elayan here:

Essentially, you(Juve) are guilty of winning. When you break it all down, no matter what side you are on Juve were punished for winning.

 

[gsol]

I think there is some confusion regarding fact and theory here in court. Many people have come up with hypothetical possibilities and claims that no one can know the whole truth but in doing so are missing a cardinal rule in court.

I’m no lawyer but even I am well aware that a trial (yes even a Sports Trial) is based on the prosecutions ability to present evidence supporting an accusation and the defense’s ability to discredit the accusations by creating doubt.

We can all come up with hypothetical theories and I am well aware that we will never hear each and every conversation conducted by Moggi in that year for the simple reason that he only had his phones tapped. His car for instance wasn’t bugged meaning he could have taken the referees out for joyrides while deciding how to fix games (though I doubt this considering at least one eye witness would have been able to vouch for such an occurrence) but a trial can’t possibly be based on what may have occurred, it can only be based on what they know occurred.

The trial was a farce because the verdict was in no way justified by the evidence gathered by the prosecutors. The very proof of that is the fact that the court had to temporarily modify its rules in order to make the (let’s face it…already decided) sentence presentable to the public. Even considering the team’s dismal defense (due in part to limitations like no video evidence) one can’t justify a sentence that had no proof of wrongdoing (Article 6) behind it. If all they could find were Article 1 violations than they should have been tried for Article 1 violations period.

I believe that Moggi was innocent because I feel that if this man really had such a strangle hold on the referees that at least one of those 100,000 recordings and countless audits would have confirmed at the very least one fixed match. They didn’t. That’s it.

Please leave the hypothetical possibilities aside and focus on what was presented in court. I just think that too many people here had been fed bullshit regarding Moggi for too many years and now such obvious points as an unlawful trial and soccer’s power structure are just too new and too late to open their eyes to the fact that we’ve been had.

 

[Cronios]

I believe that Moggi was innocent because I feel that if this man really had such a strangle hold on the referees that at least one of those 100,000 recordings and countless audits would have confirmed at the very least one fixed match. They didn’t. That’s it.

Valid point, i wont argue with that, because thats exactly what i have been saying even before you signed up here.I dont disagree with you in essence, you have to know that, but i do partially disagree with your final conclusion and i do have the right to do that, because its your own personal opinion and not smth your facts prove, (facts that i respect and accept as real facts).
Moggi is definitely NOT the God of calcio, our enemies hardly trying to make him look like, but he had the power to influence some certain things. And he sure did influenced many matches, even indirectly, he might have done it, just to defend Juve from anti-Juve refs, but still, that would mean he isnt innocent.
I believe Moggi is guilty, but he had limited powers, not enough power for "match-fixing", but enough to brake the laws. I wish we had more men than him today, just one wasnt enough (the rest of the "holy triad" was hardly on par ) and the proper political power to back them up...this is how the game works, was working and will be working for ever. And this is where i disagree with Denco, i would agree to see juve in serie C1 and the Italian championship ridden of corruption forever, but this will never happen, we were demoted from the super team status and the team to beat, just to let our adversaries grow stronger and more successful!

Please leave the hypothetical possibilities aside and focus on what was presented in court. I just think that too many people here had been fed bullshit regarding Moggi for too many years and now such obvious points as an unlawful trial and soccer’s power structure are just too new and too late to open their eyes to the fact that we’ve been had.

you mean...that was presented in the court... AND published on the media,
first, i dont think we have all the data the court had in their disposal and there are further more evidence presented to the court, that got discarded.
Besides the court and our prosecutors are all a big happy family, you said that your self, justice is irrelevant here, i think you missed the essence of my posts...
and one last thing, i ll repeat again, they left evidence for us to find, because they dont care, they know we can do nothing.
They punished us without any real hard evidence, just because they can,the laws were irrelevant, they dont need any real evidence, the verdict was made by gazzetta, the rest of the bureaucratic "details" were taken care of with concise processes...
A proper investigation with neutral judges wouldnt help their cause,
but still that doesnt proves us, innocent.

A corrupted investigation that found us corrupted doesnt prove that a proper investigation would find as innocent ( read that again, i think this is what Denco and the rest are trying to say)

 

[gsol]

"Moggi is definitely NOT the God of calcio, our enemies hardly trying to make him look like, but he had the power to influence some certain things. And he sure did influenced many matches, even indirectly, he might have done it, just to defend Juve from anti-Juve refs, but still, that would mean he isnt innocent."

If that is your opinion than everyone is entitled to have one but if I was to ask you to support your opinion with something concrete, could you?


"i ll repeat again, they left evidence for us to find, because they dont care, they know we can do nothing.
They punished us without any real hard evidence, just because they can,the laws were irrelevant, they dont need any real evidence, the verdict was made by gazzetta, the rest of the bureaucratic "details" were taken care of with concise processes...
A proper investigation with neutral judges wouldnt help their cause"

you are right...I like that, but they thought we could do nothing. Time will tell


"A corrupted investigation that found us corrupted doesnt prove that a proper investigation would find as innocent ( read that again, i think this is what Denco and the rest are trying to say)"

Innocent until proven guilty. That phrase exists for a reason. Suspicion means shit.

 

[Cronios]

There is no such a thing as innocence...

 

[C4ISR]

gsol, correct me if Im wrong, and feel free to add anything, but Ive made a list of things which courts in other countries would never accept:



- Illegal wiretaps by a non-governmental organization (Telecom Italia) being admissable in court.
- To give these wiretaps to a newspaper and make public
- Allowing only sections of the wiretaps to be heard.
- The refusal of this same wiretap evidence to be used by the defence
- Creating a new article to the sporting justice, and than taking it away after the punishment has been served.
- Having an ex Inter director handle the trial.
- Not allowing the defence their legal right to a defence (I remember reading somewhere they were given time limit, in minutes, to state their case. On top of not being allowed to bring in any witnesses, or use any materials which proved their innocence)

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

this keeps getting more and more one-sided.

 

[gsol]

gsol, correct me if Im wrong, and feel free to add anything, but Ive made a list of things which courts in other countries would never accept:



- Illegal wiretaps by a non-governmental organization (Telecom Italia) being admissable in court.
- To give these wiretaps to a newspaper and make public
- Allowing only sections of the wiretaps to be heard.
- The refusal of this same wiretap evidence to be used by the defence
- Creating a new article to the sporting justice, and than taking it away after the punishment has been served.
- Having an ex Inter director handle the trial.
- Not allowing the defence their legal right to a defence (I remember reading somewhere they were given time limit, in minutes, to state their case. On top of not being allowed to bring in any witnesses, or use any materials which proved their innocence)

actually the wiretaps weren't even heard. they only read pieces of transcripts and the time limit was 3 days for defense. that wasn't Juve's defense. It was each club, director, referee, designer,etc. In the end it translated to minutes each. You left out the part where the first trial was skipped and whee Guido Rossi dismissed former judges and hand picked new ones for the trial (one coming out of retirement).

 

[Pingo]

Another thing I want to ask Denco is why he is so quick to believe the opinion of Jason Burke. Did he source anything? Did he reference anything? Where were his facts?

All he did was state a personal opinion on events that may or may not have taken place yet you have no problem agreeing with it. Could it be because you like what he is saying and don't really require further convincing?

I on the other hand have been demanded to post proof of riots, proof that I have documents, wiretaps, proof of financial ties, etc. and everytime I do it just gets swept under the rug and dimissed. That's hypocritical.

I showed how the trial lacked evidence. You claimed that the evidence was there but remained hidden. I find that grossly improbable considering they were relegating the team anyway but now it is your turn; do you have any proof that could lend credibility to your claim or is it just a theoretical possibility however improbable it may be?

That is sweet ...
i realy wonder what is he going to do next or better what is he going to reply...It's easy question, provide some proof that is credibil...

 

[JuveAdam]

Gsol,

He was referring to judge Cesare Ruperto in one post and in another we were discussing judges opinions that did not preside over the trial. Ruperto did.

Sorry

“Yet you say cant get relegated for article 1, now you say you can.”
No buddy read carefully. They can’t and as a result modified the rules in order to create a violation that didn’t exist at the time of the wiretaps

So the rules were changed so that multiple offences or suspiscions relating to article 1 meant an article 6 punishment, meaning that the rules then stated this was punishable by relegation. Yes nothing was proved, yes the rule changed back again, but at the time we were relegated, those were the rules, like it or not

“You also say sporting trials aren't the same as real trials, then say its in breach of human rights? Make your mind up.”
No man sorry again but that was Denco’s idea. Sporting trials must still follow human rights as do all types of trials.

Actually very wrong. In a sporting trial you can be punished without evidence (eg Rio Ferdinand, us getting relegated, Christin Ohuruogu.) In a real court you are innocent until proven guilty. A sporting trial works on the opposite system where a player/ club /manager must prove their innocence.

“

The transfer system, technically, is a breach of freedom of trade laws, but this, my learned friend, is the governing body of a GAME! Not, as I said before, the Supreme Court.”
Elaborate how exchanging player contracts is a breach of freedom of trade laws?

Because players cannot, as you or I can, walk out on a job & start another with a rival company until the end of their contract. The are not even allowed an interview with a different employer (tapping up) without the permission of one club. Come on, how can you argue the most minor points when you obv have the intelligence to see the times you are wrong

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Gsol,
So the rules were changed so that multiple offences or suspiscions relating to article 1 meant an article 6 punishment, meaning that the rules then stated this was punishable by relegation. Yes nothing was proved, yes the rule changed back again, but at the time we were relegated, those were the rules, like it or not

so are you aying that it was right, ethically? how can they change the rules in their favour and get away with it?

Actually very wrong. In a sporting trial you can be punished without evidence (eg Rio Ferdinand, us getting relegated, Christin Ohuruogu.) In a real court you are innocent until proven guilty. A sporting trial works on the opposite system where a player/ club /manager must prove their innocence.

i'm not aware of the ohuruogu case, but wasn't ferdinand punished for missing the drugs test?(not sure)

Because players cannot, as you or I can, walk out on a job & start another with a rival company until the end of their contract. The are not even allowed an interview with a different employer (tapping up) without the permission of one club. Come on, how can you argue the most minor points when you obv have the intelligence to see the times you are wrong

??? no comment

 

[gsol]

Gsol,



Sorry



So the rules were changed so that multiple offences or suspiscions relating to article 1 meant an article 6 punishment, meaning that the rules then stated this was punishable by relegation. Yes nothing was proved, yes the rule changed back again, but at the time we were relegated, those were the rules, like it or not

There’s a problem with your statement. Since the rules were modified during the trial (after the offences were committed) Juventus couldn’t be subjected to the new rules.

 

[gsol]

Actually very wrong. In a sporting trial you can be punished without evidence (eg Rio Ferdinand, us getting relegated, Christin Ohuruogu.) In a real court you are innocent until proven guilty. A sporting trial works on the opposite system where a player/ club /manager must prove their innocence.

I disagree but don’t want to argue it because it is irrelevant. Juventus had no reason to prove innocence for Article 6 since the court already acknowledged it in the sentence. In any case Human Rights are to be respected.

 

[gsol]

Because players cannot, as you or I can, walk out on a job & start another with a rival company until the end of their contract. The are not even allowed an interview with a different employer (tapping up) without the permission of one club. Come on, how can you argue the most minor points when you obv have the intelligence to see the times you are wrong

My contract clearly stated that I could not work for a rival company for 6 months after terminating my position too but that is beside the point.

In any case you are confusing things. Players are not paid employees the way you and I are. Those players play for a club because that club owns their contract. They (the contracts) are regarded as tangible assets and not human capital like a team’s general manager or accountant would be. That is why contracts are amortized over the duration of the contract itself. If you were to buy another company’s asset (processor, computer system, etc) you would have to first approach the company. Player’s are categorized by their contract in the same manner. That is why they can’t come and go as they please.

 

[Diego]

Moggi the king! Secco can suck his dick

 

[Boudz]

Hey Gsol
I need your help, can you please give me a credible source where it says that the phone recordings weren't used in the court room even when Juve lawyers requested, they were rejected.

I have an BInter fan who needs a slap of reality.

Please the sooner I shut him up the better!