Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (62 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

I find it annoying that you, and some others, continuosly berate the quality of this forum today as opposed to 3 years ago. If it's that much worse, leave.

The thing is, it's not worse, it's just bigger. With each "idiot" poster came a good poster as well, just that it loses a piece of that cozy, warm feeling of being a smaller and closer community.

I don't blame you, I'm sure it was a lot more fun for you few years ago and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm sick of hearing about how this place has lost quality when it hasn't. It gained as much quality as it gained stupidity, just in bigger proportions.

1) The quality of the posts today are lesser than of just two years ago. Like I said, this a fact that denco, Paul and others acknowledge. It might be sad and stating such a fact might make you angry, but that's just the way it is. I find it more useful to admit such a fact and try to remedy the situation instead of just brushing it under the carpet, but if it's that difficult to fathom, then just continue denying it. And no, I won't leave.

2) It's not that much bigger than it was two years ago. Sure, there are more registered users, but that goes without saying. Therefore, if your theory would hold, it would mean that a drop in quality would not be noticable and the level of quality would actually increase. If there is a net gain in stupidity, that means a net loss in sensible posts.

Take this conversation somewhere else

You're not a moderator, gsol, just like you're not the god of Calciopoli. To me, you seem like someone with no life who continuously researches a trial through copious amounts of your own free time. When people state that you seem to care more about Calciopoli than the condition of the side as we speak, they certainly do have a point. If there is anybody here that is acting like they're better than anyone, it's you. With your attitude and failure to admit that you do not know everything about this supposed scandal, people will indeed not take too kindly to you and question your authority on the matter.

I enjoyed reading some of your first posts on this forum, and certainly appreciated your insight on the legal matters of the trial and the documents you have provided. You have certainly done this forum a good service. And while I have indeed read most of your posts and legal verbiage on here, you still have not convinced me that Juventus and/or Moggi was completely innocent in this whole ordeal. There could still be many facets missing here. That's why I'm not so quick to preach that we are completely innocent of all charges and accusations, a stance that everyone here should take as we have do not have such sources to totally clear our name. From reading your posts, I still cannot tell whether or not you believe we are completely innocent or if you just believe that our demotion was a fallacy. But in actuality, it seems like the latter is a catalyst for the former in your case, a trend that many others here have seemingly subscribed to.

In short, thank you for the posts you have provided and insight into legal interpretation, but don't prance around here saying you know it all.

this place had better quality, not the time Andy is talking about, but way earlier than that.

Snoop, this place had better quality two years ago. There is no doubt about that.

My point exactly...Like they (so calld Juve supporters), want Juve to be guilty...I mean, go and stick your head where the sun don't shine...

Not a single Juventus supporter here wants Juventus to be guilty, ya dunce. Do you actually know the meaning of keeping an open mind?

 

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[Cronios]

I want to ask someone like Cronios, do you really think that Olympiakos can get Panathinaikos relegated with no hard evidence and the whole of Greece knows that it was just for financial and political gain.

Would nothing be done? Would there still be a league to play in Greece?

I see your point and i partially agree, but i have to point out a few differences here:

I believe that these days, there is a balance of powers in every championship,
no one has the full control of the league. Political power can help on bending some rules, avoid some allegations and fines,buy some certain refs, win some certain matches, bribe some certain teams or players, but cannot win an entire championship and in any case, go us far as demote an important club...
Same thing WAS valid in Italy too, by the end of the old Agnelli dynasty...
right after that though, the balance has broken, we no longer have any political back up,
we were still the best managed club in the league and Moggi's illegal activities were barely enough to protect us and allow us to win the championship, while having the best team...but we tend to lose the background war almost every season, luckily, that wasnt enough to stop us winning the championship most of the times.
But the essence is, we were vulnerable, Moggi is just a manager, he has no real political power!
I was saying that, before calciopoli and even before the EPO farso-trial restarted.
We were too successful for our real power, smth bad was bound to happen,
one way or the other, the combined forces of our enemies were keep throwing mud and obstacles against us, but we were keep winning...till we became the victim of our success and most hated team in Italy, by both fans and managers.
So they have decided to make a big sacrifice and expose the true nature of calcio to the entire football community and take us down, once and for all !
Moggi wasnt expecting that, he knew their very own dark secrets and involvement and thought, that would be enough to protect him,
he thought he would bring them down with him, he though the light can be more blinding than the darkness, well... he was wrong, that was the only mistake of his entire "carrier" and Juventus had to pay the price for it!
This is my view on the matter,i dont believe we are innocent, but we are not any less guilty than the rest, thats what i believed even before calciopoli.

Now about the riot argument;
indeed, Juve even, if it hasnt any political power to react and the only real weapon of our divided, or not, managers was and is "silenzio stampa", Juve has the largest fan base in Italy, by far. Under normal circumstances, they couldnt do that , to us without facing the rage of 10millions or so, angry Juve fans, BUT:

-we really have a degree of guilt and we know it, so we can take it much less painfully
-our enemies have been advertising this guilt for ages, it has installed in everybody's soul, even in Juventini's fans, even to the ppl that know little to nothing about serie A
-they have all the means necessary for this war and esp the media,
the media are enough to influence the ppl's opinion In Italy and halt public unrest manipulating the truth and presenting the parts of the truth that would harm only us, ignoring the rest of the corrupted reality
-the lack of an aspirant champion, of a true leader (official or unofficial) did not allow us, any organized counter attack, there was no one to lead the Juventini in a protest, let alone a riot...
-the world cup and all the circus and influence it had to the ppl, prevented a club-based incidents at the beggings of the scandal
-an ultimate scapegoat was needed, someone to take the blame for everybody, because the situation was beyond of any control at a certain period of time
and the selection of a single easy victim would minimize the damages

Call it coincidence or a well planned conspiracy, but i dont see any similar abundance of favoring factors in the Greek or any other championship,
at the moment! If the circumstances change, everything can happen.
Besides, the Mediterraneans are capable of extreme behaviour, under extreme circumstances, we are a bit of...flammable ppl...
Maybe in a nordic country, such a thing, could be wisely avoided. The Italian drama queens, though, wouldnt miss that for the world. Generations and generations of Italian fans were raised hating the gobbi-cheaters, they all had the lifetime opportunity to nail us for good, for the 10million Juventini that would start a riot if Juve was unfairly relegated, there was a response of 60million anti-Juventini, that would start a riot if Juve wasnt relegated as it should, the truth was quite irrelevant, the fact that Moggi advised his son how to date a bitch was enough...

The press was proved THE most effective weapon in this war, it has clearly demonstrated that the public opinion is easily manipulated by the press,
the manipulated/corrupted public opinion was beyond the prime minister and the president of the Italian league, the final sentence was demanded by the media and the sports court just executed the pre-determined/decided verdict.
There was no room for a fair trial one way or the other, the judges wouldnt be allowed to prove Juve innocent, even if they werent Moratti's men,
maybe they wouldnt handle the title to Inter, or maybe they would go on with the investigations and implicate more persons and teams, but that wouldnt help us much anyway...
The exact way it happened though clearly proved how powerful our opposition really is, in the "under the table" negotiations! They didnt just buried us, they did it with authority, we were totally helpless for a great sum of reasons.
Thats why our board has chosen to quit so early and thats why they left so many "evidence" for ppl like gsol to find, they dont care about that anymore, they dont feel threatened,
noone will dare to face them again after that, not even Berlusca...
The other teams are happy to take a new share in the game balance, pieces of the old Juve empire are enough to feed many vultures...

PS: It seems that, the only thing that saved Berlusca and his team, is that he had the league's TV rights and a great deal of serie A incomes, under control.
He had anything we hadnt, political influence, media favor, connection in the highest places, an aspirant leader that dared to declare "Milan has nothing to do with this" from day one, just like Bill declared "I did not had any sexual relations with Monica"
and they were still came up against similar accusations to ours, in the end though, everybody saw what true power really means...you dont mess with the best, cause you will die like the Juve rests!

I think that my opinion includes most of the gsol "facts", (apart of the inside enemy part, witch i dont fully comprehend yet, did Respaul made, any comment on that????) and with Denco's psychosis, that we are guilty as hell, also considering the Italian "cosa nostra" reality, the calcio recent history and modern re-writing of future history... As the times paces our view on the matter will become, more complete.
I presented my current view on the matter in a Catania resident, a Juventino from Bari and and a Milan fan from Palermo IIRC, my view was always caught it the middle, so i think it tends to be an objective one...Do not overestimate Italian's knowledge on the matter, only Juve supporters and Juve haters remember half of the facts.
My opinion though changes with the constant flux of facts and opinions backed with solid arguments, thats why i m really interested in gsol's job (the facts speak by them selves some times but there sure has to be more incriminating info against us, remained undiscovered) and i do appreciate Deco's presence and devil's advocate stance, to keep doubts, at bay,(even though he lacks facts, he has some solid argumentations based in common logic, not always though ) i hope he wont permanently leave the conversation, as he threatened...

 

[Pingo]

Not a single Juventus supporter here wants Juventus to be guilty, ya dunce. Do you actually know the meaning of keeping an open mind?

No...U tell me, Andy from USA... So why r u against gsol or his arguments? Why don't you acknowledge his findings and posts? Why are most of the so calld Juve fans against him on this forum? Tell me that,ya dunce... Every one who possess a common sense, knows that the trial was a joke...

No video evidence was allowed to be used by the defense and no witnesses were allowed to be brought forth + no wire taps were heard in court...So that we couldn't proof our innocence... Than changing the rules duiring the trial and then changing tham back after it's over...Does this look like a fair trial to you???? You must admit that is a bit shady


@Cronios...well put:toast:

 

[Enron]

No...U tell me, Andy from USA... So why r u against gsol or his arguments? Why don't you acknowledge his findings and posts? Why are most of the so calld Juve fans against him on this forum? Tell me that,ya dunce...

I don't think the Juve fans on this forum are for or against Gsol. Many of them merely question his findings and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Gsol appreciates the questioning on some level, as he gets to reiterate his views time and again. You really can't expect people to just accept something without question, no matter how much evidence you have, it just doesn't happen that way. Granted it probably isn't good that each side go after one another like enemies, when they should be joining together, differing views aside. After all, you are all Juventus fans.

 

[Bjerknes]

No...U tell me, Andy from USA... So why r u against gsol or his arguments? Why don't you acknowledge his findings and posts? Why are most of the so calld Juve fans against him on this forum? Tell me that,ya dunce... Every one who possess a common sense, knows that the trial was a joke...

No video evidence was allowed to be used by the defense and no witnesses were allowed to be brought forth + no wire taps were heard in court...So that we couldn't proof our innocence... Than changing the rules duiring the trial and then changing tham back after it's over...Does this look like a fair trial to you???? You must admit that is a bit shady

If you actually simply read my post instead of just looking at my location, you wouldn't have had to write any of that. It might be a little difficult for you to comprehend, but one can believe that the trial against us was unfair while still keep an open mind that we may not be entirely innocent.

 

[ZhiXin]

Take note of your way of presentation fellas, a lot of unncessary conflicts happen because of presentation, there is nothing wrong with anybody, but the conflicts in here become redundant as there is misconception of each other.

Wouldn't it be a shame to see this resourceful thread go down just like that?

 

[gsol]

Andy I’m not a mod but you have been told by a mod to stay on topic and continue to drift. How many messages need to be deleted before you guys learn?
Me having no life is a stupid assumption. Having cleared 25,000 it’s obvious that you devote plenty of your spare time to Juventus as well. I read in my spare time. It hasn’t kept me from maintaining a job, getting a post graduate education and getting married while maintaining all of my friends. This past year given the publications of trial documents, rather than reading other books I read trial documents. As a result I am far more equipped than many to approach this topic.
My position is that Juventus were guilty of article 1 violations and should have been fined and penalized at least 5 points. The relegation was part of another agenda and unlawful given the manner in which the sentence, trial, and evidence were structured.
If all the legal documents that state no match fixing, all the wiretaps that conclude no match fixing, and all the judges admitting no article 6 violations haven’t convinced you an others that the relegation and stripping of titles was a farce than there is little more I can do. Needless to say I will be more than happy to provide whatever answers I can to satisfy your curiosities. If and when I am asked a question that I have no answer for I admit it. Such a question has not yet been posed to me.

 

[gsol]

I don't think the Juve fans on this forum are for or against Gsol. Many of them merely question his findings and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Gsol appreciates the questioning on some level, as he gets to reiterate his views time and again. You really can't expect people to just accept something without question, no matter how much evidence you have, it just doesn't happen that way. Granted it probably isn't good that each side go after one another like enemies, when they should be joining together, differing views aside. After all, you are all Juventus fans.

I have no problem with people questioning findings. It's when people refuse to accept certain unchangeable answers that I get annoyed. The problem here is that many things are clear and pointless to debate (i.e. not guilty of match fixing according to the sentences) and certain people won't acknowledge or accept that chosing to make fun or post hypothetical questions or stupid analogies.

Questioning the case was exactly what I did...I encourage thers to be just as inquisitive. Don't refuse answers though just because they may go against the norm.

 

[gsol]

Cronios, friendly question.

What were we guilty of?

 

[HelterSkelter]

Cheating.

 

[Fred]

Whatsa matter with you? Don't you no logic is not permitted on here?

We are just meant to believe what we are told here and that is it.

In his first post in this thread he stated that a certain judge said that the rulings were wrong and when i called him on it , that the judge is 81 and probably senile he goes the other way and says that is his point that they put an 81 year old as 1 of the judges.

First he uses this judge as 1 of the people that agrees with him then he calls him senile when the tables are turned against him

He stated that they listened to 100,000 phone calls. Can you imagine am 81 year old listening to 100,000 phone calls and still live to talk about it?

Going back to phone calls and wire taps, he stated that Moggi proved that anyone could have impersonated him on a tv show, to prove his point he even posted you tube to impress us.

But if someone impersonated Moggi then why post the wire-taps, surely they are irrelevant as they were obviously engineered to frame Moggi?

I asked how come the uproar has not been so great, he says I should visit forums

Did I have to visit a forum to find out that there were riots on sunday?

He says a football tribunal is a court but as you have pointed out you cannot do that in a court as it against eu law and other legalities

He says Moratti invented wiretaps for the sole purpose of Calciopoli in that to frame Juventus but how does that explain Vieri being tapped

Moratti is not a nice person we all know that with his illegal means of gathering information to suit his needs but it does not mean that he invented stuff

I ask how come Inter are not universally loathed, he says according to GOAL.COM, they are the most hated team. They are champions and won it by a long way, what do you expect and noone likes a grass as that was all Inter are guilty of

I want to ask someone like Cronios, do you really think that Olympiakos can get Panathinaikos relegated with no hard evidence and the whole of Greece knows that it was just for financial and political gain.

Would nothing be done? Would there still be a league to play in Greece?

Or Fred Weasley, I believe you are from Egypt, can Zamalek get Ahly National relegated for the reasons we have been told on here and there would be no nationwide riot because this is the bullshit we are been told to swallow here

All those years ago were Marseille not relegated for bribing a club to lose so they can win the league early and concentrate on facing milan in cl final? Didnt Tapie protest his innocence then?

Didnt Marion Jones protest her innocence for years? Did the authorities find anything until she confessed 7 years later? Did she not lie under oath?

How many of you guys that keep defending him listened to all the alleged 100,00 calls?

How many of you looked at the whole documents? How many of you have actually taken the time to ask your Italian friends that are not Juventus fans or iNTER fans and listen to their take on the matter?

To be honest I am bored of this thread, there is no stimulation, I was hoping to be impressed by 1 man's quest to get to the truth but instead all I get is someone so full of discrepancies in his statements, never realises when he is putting his foot in it.

You question him and he comes up with you don't know Italian or you don't have evidence

I don't need to understand English to know Manchester United cannot be relegated by Abramovic, never in a million years.

Nobody hates unfairness like I do and if i though for a minute that Juventus were innocent then I would be like a rabid wolverine and would definitely go beyond forums but I don't believe we are innocent

carry on Gsol, its your house, I am taking my slow-milan-loving-inter-adoring-media-believing-douche-period-having-illiterate-non-italian-speaking-pig-headed self out here

Dazzle them with your wit and rhetoric as there is no more bad guy to your good guy

No mate your mistaken i'm not egyptian..i'm libyan

But i understand what you're saying and i completely agree..i dont know enough about Calciopoli..but it is virtually impossible to get a huge globally followed insititution to be relegated..Its common sense..

 

[V]

1) The quality of the posts today are lesser than of just two years ago. Like I said, this a fact that denco, Paul and others acknowledge. It might be sad and stating such a fact might make you angry, but that's just the way it is. I find it more useful to admit such a fact and try to remedy the situation instead of just brushing it under the carpet, but if it's that difficult to fathom, then just continue denying it. And no, I won't leave.

2) It's not that much bigger than it was two years ago. Sure, there are more registered users, but that goes without saying. Therefore, if your theory would hold, it would mean that a drop in quality would not be noticable and the level of quality would actually increase. If there is a net gain in stupidity, that means a net loss in sensible posts.

Whatever, I and most current users would disagree with you, denco and Paul, but it doesn't matter. You believe what you want to believe, I think I got it spot on and from what people have told me, the majority would agree with me.

I never intended this to become an arguement either, I purposely made a funny remark because I knew the reaction it would get and I wanted to say what I think about the subject. I've done that and there's really not much room for debate here.


Take it away gsol, sorry for ruining your thread.

 

[gsol]

Fred, don't assume that it is impossible, it happened.

Salman Inter fan...what game?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

everybody, if want to argue and post crap, just go to burke's calciopoli vs. farsiopoli thread.

 

[gsol]

Ya it’s a great thread. Where guys talk about how much common sense others have even though there is no common sense involved in simply disagreeing with points that aren’t debatable (like whether or not Telecom and Inter are linked when both owners sit on the same board and sponsor each other).

Then they say that I am a conspiracy theorist when they don’t know the meaning of the word. A conspiracy is a conspiracy only as long as there is no proof. When there is proof it ceases to be conspiracy and becomes fact. When I say that the court had no evidence of match fixing and back it up with the sentence and judge quotes from various interviews there is no conspiracy…it’s a fact. When I say that Inter were heavily involved in our sentence and show that the trial Commissioner was a former Inter director, that Telecom provided the wiretaps where Moratti is a Director, where Moratti admitted on television to have authorized the wiretap project, where the owner (Tronchetti) simultaneously owns Pirelli Tires that happen to be Inter’s biggest sponsors (see their jerseys) there is no conspiracy theory. It’s a fact.

The only real conspiracy left is the one all these guys seem to still believe, the theory that Juventus conspired to control all of soccer. There is no proof of that, there is no proof Moggi controlled refs, there is no proof of a single fixed match, and there is no proof of a single incident of bribery. Actually there is way more evidence that all that was bullshit than true. Yet they believe and call it “logic” or “common sense”.

Common sense is often a phrase used by people who have no proof. They said the earth was flat once, it was common sense because otherwise they would fall off.

With all their “intelligence”, “common sense” and lines like “if gsol was a muslim I’d say I was a jew” I can only wonder how long that thread will last before someone with actual common sense closes the shit.

 

[Azzurri7]

Cronios, thats one great post.

 

[Bjerknes]

Andy I’m not a mod but you have been told by a mod to stay on topic and continue to drift. How many messages need to be deleted before you guys learn?

I'm not insulting anybody, however. Every threard goes slightly off topic but in my same post I actually address you and Calciopoli, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

My position is that Juventus were guilty of article 1 violations and should have been fined and penalized at least 5 points. The relegation was part of another agenda and unlawful given the manner in which the sentence, trial, and evidence were structured.
If all the legal documents that state no match fixing, all the wiretaps that conclude no match fixing, and all the judges admitting no article 6 violations haven’t convinced you an others that the relegation and stripping of titles was a farce than there is little more I can do.

Now you're getting somewhere. There's no doubt in my mind that the punishment we received was unfair and that we were essentially used as the scapegoat in the forefront of it all. And if that is the case, we deserve reparations. However, I'm not excluding the possibility of some other incriminating evidence against us that is still under the woodwork at FIGC, as that does seem reasonable considering denco's argument of plausibility of bringing down an entire club with little evidence.

Whatever, I and most current users would disagree with you, denco and Paul, but it doesn't matter. You believe what you want to believe, I think I got it spot on and from what people have told me, the majority would agree with me.

I never intended this to become an arguement either, I purposely made a funny remark because I knew the reaction it would get and I wanted to say what I think about the subject. I've done that and there's really not much room for debate here.

You're not right, Vlatko. When members such as denco, Paul, Padovano, Fred and others, who have been here far longer than you have, state there has been a noticeable drop in quality, you're wrong. Sorry. That's just how it is.

 

[Enron]

Cronios, friendly question.

What were we guilty of?

Essentially, you are guilty of winning.

 

[V]

You're not right, Vlatko. When members such as denco, Paul, Padovano, Fred and others, who have been here far longer than you have, state there has been a noticeable drop in quality, you're wrong. Sorry. That's just how it is.

I know for a fact some of those guys hardly agree with you, but I'll end it here.

 

[gsol]

Andy

Denco's argument failed to address a key issue. Hiding evidence in a verdict is against the law. I doubt judges were willing to risk their jobs to protect the image of Juve while they were tarnishing it anyway. Had Juve been saved from relegation the notion of buried evidence would have held more weight but they were relegated...why hide why? If a person is convicted of murder I doubt the judges would hide the body.