Burqa (2 Viewers)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

By "man" I mean those who are typically having a say in what their women wear, where they go, who they marry and when they die; Fathers, brothers, husbands.

So yea, I have a father, two brothers and a boyfriend

Well I meant a boyfriend\fiancé. How long have you two been together?

 

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[WΏΏdy?]

I'm not bitter, there has not been any man in my life forcing me to do anything. I'm talking about the past. Women USED TO be considered as men's belongings, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Are you a Muslim? I can then refer you to Qoran if so. Men used to bury their daughters alive in the Jaheliyyah era. Even now, in the 21st century, there are still women only in the Middle East who can't vote. Men still can marry four women at the same time. The history of women fighting for their rights in extremely masculine societies of the past and the present is not the stuff I've made up. It's only that you need to read/study more.

Now this post,i get most of it.
About the bold part...its about the country you live and and the few surrounding it,i dont think 4 marriges are allowed in france or europe and i agree with the ban even thought it is allowed in islam. But when the ban says "you are allowed to cover yourself from head to toes the neck and every inch except the face" is kinda ridiculous,especially when women doing it as their own choice.

You have a problem with the rule that says "the wifes belong to their husbands",so brush your women ego aside and interpret if carefully....in a marrige,regardless of a religion,the husband and wife do belong to each other...and you make it sound like in quran there are rules just for the wife,have you not read about the rules for the men of u just chose to ignore them? i do not have a lot of knowledge about quran and islam but this is i am sure about,if a women is not allowed to show off her body to other men similarly men are not allowed to gaze on other women,first look might be accidental and can be excuses but men too have to look away. And plenty other hard rules for men as well.

 

[WΏΏdy?]

That must be a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome.

BTW, I'm just curious. In the present world, is there any other form of face-covering women follow everyday? And I'm not talking about temporary ones like a full body suit a nuclear scientist wears, or a fencing mask. I mean something that a woman, or anyone would wear to, lets say, a shopping mall or a restaurant. Anything like this other than a burqa?

Not that i am aware of,except those halloween costumes

 

[WΏΏdy?]

Btw hoori,since we are talking about history,i suggest u read about the killings of girls/women/girl child/wives in indian and chinese culture You might find it interesting that killing girls due to misinterpreted islamic values is still massively few compared to these two.

There might be more in other cultures as well but these two i will speak about since i know about them...the islamic values and come into focus only because of the terror attacks and the islamaphobia some poeple have.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

But when the ban says "you are allowed to cover yourself from head to toes the neck and every inch except the face" is kinda ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but covering your face is ridiculous. I've already stated the reason before.

And Woody, can you answer my question in the previous post? Is there any other form of face-covering other than the burqa that women or people do while they're in public on a normal day? Anything to suggest that covering your face is good for humanity in the same way as you wear footwear to protect yourself from the harsh ground, or wear a sweater to keep yourself warm? Any natural reason that would compel a person, regardless of their religion, to cover their face everyday?

EDIT: I see that you answered it. Halloween comes along once a year. And in the rest of the 364 days, no one wears a costume that covers their face.

Anything else?

 

[king Ale]

Well I meant a boyfriend\fiancé. How long have you two been together?

It's been about three years :smile:

Btw hoori,since we are talking about history,i suggest u read about the killings of girls/women/girl child/wives in indian and chinese culture You might find it interesting that killing girls due to misinterpreted islamic values is still massively few compared to these two.

There might be more in other cultures as well but these two i will speak about since i know about them...the islamic values and come into focus only because of the terror attacks and the islamaphobia some poeple have.

Islam actually stopped that fashion, men were burying their daughters alive in the pre-Islam era. There is a verse in Qoran (Takwir surah) condemning those men.

 

[WΏΏdy?]

I'm sorry, but covering your face is ridiculous. I've already stated the reason before.

And Woody, can you answer my question in the previous post? Is there any other form of face-covering other than the burqa that women or people do while they're in public on a normal day? Anything to suggest that covering your face is good for humanity in the same way as you wear footwear to protect yourself from the harsh ground, or wear a sweater to keep yourself warm? Any natural reason that would compel a person, regardless of their religion, to cover their face everyday?



EDIT: I see that you answered it. Halloween comes along once a year. And in the rest of the 364 days, no one wears a costume that covers their face.

Anything else?

Your previous posts were "i am ok with this---but not with this-----because i think this---"

And please direct me to the post where i suggested wearing the burqa is good for humanity or is scientifically proved to be benificial?

Maybe there is,maybe there isnt...I dont know,so i will not speak about it on half knowledge

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

It's been about three years :smile:

Wonderful!

Wait a minute... Niloo.. isn't that a girls name?

 

[king Ale]

Wonderful!

Wait a minute... Niloo.. isn't that a girls name?

It is haha

It's a joke, obviously

 

[Dostoevsky]

Joke huh :eyebrows:

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Your previous posts were "i am ok with this---but not with this-----because i think this---"

And please direct me to the post where i suggested wearing the burqa is good for humanity or is scientifically proved to be benificial?

Maybe there is,maybe there isnt...I dont know,so i will not speak about it on half knowledge

I can't find the post in this thread(long thread), but I stated how important a person's face is when it comes to identifying someone. The impact is pretty huge. It's the difference between me knowing you and know Snoop. I'm sure you can see what impact it has. Not to mention the role it has in relationships. It's one of the most important aspects of a person. I cannot think of anyone who would wilfully cover their face considering this. Personal choice is a pretty nice cop-out. If women would choose to cover their face for a non-religious reason, then it's important to know what that reason really is. Cos if it is a valid reason, then a lot of people around the world would do it regardless of their culture, religion and ethnicity. A LOT! And my question is, do you see this happening? And if so, do they all share the same reason?

Hey, I wasn't implying that you said something contrary to that. I was merely asking a question.

It is haha

It's a joke, obviously

Of course it is. But for a second, I thought you were a lesbian.

 

[Dostoevsky]

For a second, or for a couple of minutes? :eyebrows:

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

For a second, or for a couple of minutes? :eyebrows:

Are you suggesting I was fantasising about Hoori being a lesbian? How dare you!

 

[JBF]

So Fred and JBF didn't get it. Who else thinks I, even in the slightest, turned down the possibility of women wearing Burqa willingly? Either I couldn't explain myself or you two were so frustrated that couldn't read properly.

You couldn't explain yourself.

women now wear Burqa willingly, it is historically a manly wish forced on their women. The reason behind the very existence of Burqa is men forcing their women to cover their faces up

That's just not true.

You two keep insisting over and over that Burqa is not an Islamic hijab,

I've NEVER said that. But don't let this stop you..

Men (could be Muslims or not) have forced their women to conceal their faces so the other men couldn't see them. I'm talking to you about the origins of Burqa. Women used to be considered as men's properties so Burqa was only a way of men protecting what they possessed. There are still men who force their women to wear Burqa. Many women on the other hand are wearing it willingly. But this doesn't matter. Burqa came to existence as a consequence of a horrible cause, which was the macho way men used to see women as. If we agree that such cause has no place in today's society anymore, Burqa is automatically losing its meaning.

What origins of burqe?! Seriously what are you talking about?

Burqe and Hijab both were used in ancient arab times, back when they used to worship stones, It's a badawin culture for a woman to cover her face at that time in the face of strangers. And im not talking here about anyone who isn't a relative but about rival tribes and such.

When they got used to seeing that guy then they would show their face and hair. No culture back then would do an honor kill for that. And when Islam came the habit continued except this time woman were advised to wear a hijab yet some believed it's for the good of woman to show as little as possible of their body.

To say that burqe is historically the face of woman's oppression is WRONG. It was used by some to oppress woman but that doesn't make it a motto of that, hell woman till this day are sometimes beaten up by drunk men. Why not focus on Alcohol as the face of woman oppression?!

 

[WΏΏdy?]

I can't find the post in this thread(long thread), but I stated how important a person's face is when it comes to identifying someone. The impact is pretty huge. It's the difference between me knowing you and know Snoop. I'm sure you can see what impact it has. Not to mention the role it has in relationships. It's one of the most important aspects of a person. I cannot think of anyone who would wilfully cover their face considering this. Personal choice is a pretty nice cop-out. If women would choose to cover their face for a non-religious reason, then it's important to know what that reason really is. Cos if it is a valid reason, then a lot of people around the world would do it regardless of their culture, religion and ethnicity. A LOT! And my question is, do you see this happening? And if so, do they all share the same reason?

Hey, I wasn't implying that you said something contrary to that. I was merely asking a question.

Why would u need to identify everyone who is sitting in a macdonalds? or while walking on the street? or any other public place?
its not like they are covering their faces while have their passport picture taken or somewhere where it is abolutely necessary to revel your identity.

The bold part : why is it so important for you to know that? ...and btw the women who choose to wear it is because they are religious,the reasons are obviously religious but that is something THEY choose to follow.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Why would u need to identify everyone who is sitting in a macdonalds? or while walking on the street? or any other public place?
its not like they are covering their faces while have their passport picture taken or somewhere where it is abolutely necessary to revel your identity.

The bold part : why is it so important for you to know that? ...and btw the women who choose to wear it is because they are religious,the reasons are obviously religious but that is something THEY choose to follow.

What do you mean "why it is important for me to know that"? If you saw someone do something you do not understand, then do you not ask the reason why? Especially of that something is causing a lot of discussions like these, and causing a government to ban the said something. Would you seriously not want to understand that?

This is what's confusing. You say that it is religious. Yet someone else comes along and says the Quran does not ask the women to wear a veil. So really, which one is it?

 

[JBF]

What do you mean "why it is important for me to know that"? If you saw someone do something you do not understand, then do you not ask the reason why? Especially of that something is causing a lot of discussions like these, and causing a government to ban the said something. Would you seriously not want to understand that?

This is what's confusing. You say that it is religious. Yet someone else comes along and says the Quran does not ask the women to wear a veil. So really, which one is it?

Quran says many things that some muslims choose to ignore and it also doesn't states some extremes some muslims opt to do anyway out of their own understanding. This is the religion of about 2 billion people you're discussing here, each may have his/her own understanding but we all agree on the main principles that really matters.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Quran says many things that some muslims choose to ignore and it also doesn't states some extremes some muslims opt to do anyway out of their own understanding. This is the religion of about 2 billion people you're discussing here, each may have his/her own understanding but we all agree on the main principles that really matters.

Man... all this is so pointless. No matter how much we discuss this, we'll get nowhere. Forget it.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

for the nth time this is not a religious issue, it's a civil liberties one, i think swag coined it best 'this is not afghanistan we are talking about but france'. And hoori it's really disappointing how authoritarian your views are, you want to 'save' women from their own idiocies, well isnt that rich AND condescending, if you're saying those poor misguided women need help to make decisions pertaining to them then you're no better than these agents you contend impose this culture on women. As for those who are forced to do it, using your argument is like saying we should outlaw all marriage so we can for sure get rid of domestic violence, preposterous. If we re going to take this case of burqa as a legal precedent, using your argumentation, i wonder what you would do in a country like the US where you have religious group who refuse simple medical procedures to save their lives out of "stupid" conviction, force medicine on them like rabid beats? Forcing 'what makes sense' at the expense of civil liberties is plain ergoism and authoritarian to its core.

 

[Gamaro]

There's nothing more radical to these types than women with a choice -- not women with choices made for them. Whether those choices are made for them by a repressive society or by a federal government.

I've never expected this statment to come out from the person who i consider the most mature and the wisest member in Juventuz.

Greg,don't women and even men in every society in the globe have choices made for them what to wear and what not to?!!!! Isn't exposing nipples in most places in US considerd illegal? so don't the american nudists have undesired choices made for them?

No. I direct them to the right way. I know women who are approved of their men marrying as many women as they want. They think this is a right given to men by Islam so they have to obey. And I'm all for a law which forbids this even if those women, who are supposedly the victims of this stupid law, are approved of it. You must stop wrong things to happen and Burqa is wrong Fred.

Secondly, for those women who are forced to wear Burqa, NOTHING but a law preventing women from wearing it would help. Do you know what I mean? This time lets see this as a humane issue. Those women who are willingly wearing Burqa will lose nothing by not wearing it (not to mention that the whole concept behind this hijab is way too sexist). I'd much rather a case when 1000 women are forced to not wear Burqa while 10 other are now not forced to wear it against their will to the situation when 1000 women are wearing Burqa willingly and 10 other are forced to wear it.

Do you know that this law indeed exists in Islam (atleast in our Sunni teachings,i don't know about shia)?

I don't know if u're talking about Islamic law or Iranian government,but i'm just telling you to know.

I'm not bitter, there has not been any man in my life forcing me to do anything. I'm talking about the past. Women USED TO be considered as men's belongings, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Are you a Muslim? I can then refer you to Qoran if so. Men used to bury their daughters alive in the Jaheliyyah era. Even now, in the 21st century, there are still women only in the Middle East who can't vote. Men still can marry four women at the same time. The history of women fighting for their rights in extremely masculine societies of the past and the present is not the stuff I've made up. It's only that you need to read/study more.

Women are not considered as men's belongings in Quran.Please mention the verses,I know the entire Quran by heart,and i don't know what verses you are talking about? maybe your Imams tell that but Quran no way.

Women not voting is completely sick,and everybody here agrees .Yes that exists in Mideast but that has nothing to do with Islam.

Women fighting for their rights are everywhere.Even in Europe which is the most liberal place there are feminists fighting against the heavy prostitution and pornography in Europe.

As for you not agreeing with Islam allowing men to merry 4 wives,i can tell you that,in Europe men are allowed to have affairs with many women at the same time,now will you please criticize Europeans for allowing men to do that?

And Finally,i want to remind you something Hoori.When you speak here in such religious thread especially with Sunni memebers you should keep in mind that what they taught you is Shia teachings not Sunni and here comes why sometimes Sunni memebers find what you say is strange.Surely in many things Sunni and shia are the same but in many other things there are diffrences.So whenever you want to say something regarding laws in Islam,plz mention that it's a shia point of view not the mainstream view of the muslims,also non-muslims members won't count what you say on us,if you don't know what things are different from Sunni and what are same then you are excused.