Burqa (14 Viewers)

[king Ale]

A few years back, Iranian parliament was going to lay down a law which allowed men to have as many wives as they want. Women rights activists immediately started to oppose against it, many articles written, many protests started. When finally some of the activists were arrested, the others started to wonder for what reason they were protesting against this law;

Men who were disapproved of this law were obviously not going to marry a dozen of women. Women who were disapproved of this law had no reason to worry about this law as their lives were not going to be affected by it. This law, had mainly targeted the men and women of the uneducated lower classes of the society who were not writing/reading blogs, using internet and caring about women rights. For them, any law confirmed by the Islamic regime was an Islamic law which they had to obey. "If the law says that my husband can have 10 other women, he certainly can". They were approved of this law. Those activists were actually fighting for these women. They, themselves, had nothing at risk with this law being enacted. The question was WHY BOTHER when those women who were going to be oppressed by this law happen to be exactly those who were approved of it?

The answer, I think, is that because you have to be against everything wrong. Nothing else actually matters here. Even if those women can accept their men marrying as many women as they want, this is your social duty to be against it so the daughters of those women could realize their rights unlike their mothers.

Even if some women now are wearing Burqa willingly, I'm still for the ban so that the next generations could be free from something which has grossness, oppression and wrongness all over it.

 

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[Seven]

OOOOOOWWWWW MMMMYYYY GGGGGOOOODDDDD

 

[Snoop]

:superhapp

 

[swag]

A few years back, Iranian parliament was going to lay down a law which allowed men to have as many wives as they want. Women rights activists immediately started to oppose against it, many articles written, many protests started. When finally some of the activists were arrested, the others started to wonder for what reason they were protesting against this law;

Men who were disapproved of this law were obviously not going to marry a dozen of women. Women who were disapproved of this law had no reason to worry about this law as their lives were not going to be affected by it. This law, had mainly targeted the men and women of the uneducated lower classes of the society who were not writing/reading blogs, using internet and caring about women rights. For them, any law confirmed by the Islamic regime was an Islamic law which they had to obey. "If the law says that my husband can have 10 other women, he certainly can". They were approved of this law. Those activists were actually fighting for these women. They, themselves, had nothing at risk with this law being enacted. The question was WHY BOTHER when those women who were going to be oppressed by this law happen to be exactly those who were approved of it?

The answer, I think, is that because you have to be against everything wrong. Nothing else actually matters here. Even if those women can accept their men marrying as many women as they want, this is your social duty to be against it so the daughters of those women could realize their rights unlike their mothers.

Even if some women now are wearing Burqa willingly, I'm still for the ban so that the next generations could be free from something which has grossness, oppression and wrongness all over it.

I hear what you're saying. But this is a little like the crazy states in the U.S. like Oklahoma that are passing bills to prevent Sharia law. It's irrelevant where it is not even an issue, and where it is relevant is completely unaffected. So any positives here largely amount to some symbolic show of force where the places that really need the change are never going to see it or know about it. It's called "falling on deaf ears".

We can agree that the ancient Chinese practice of binding women's feet is a bad, bad thing. But that doesn't make a law in a Western country to ban women's socks a practical measure -- just because it might be construed as a symbolic show of force against some backwoods place elsewhere in the world.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

OOOOOOWWWWW MMMMYYYY GGGGGOOOODDDDD

take your jihad to the parking lot sparky

 

[king Ale]

I hear what you're saying. But this is a little like the crazy states in the U.S. like Oklahoma that are passing bills to prevent Sharia law. It's irrelevant where it is not even an issue, and where it is relevant is completely unaffected. So any positives here largely amount to some symbolic show of force where the places that really need the change are never going to see it or know about it. It's called "falling on deaf ears".

We can agree that the ancient Chinese practice of binding women's feet is a bad, bad thing. But that doesn't make a law in a Western country to ban women's socks a practical measure -- just because it might be construed as a symbolic show of force against some backwoods place elsewhere in the world.

True. I know that it could be totally useless (and I also know that it could even make those people more stubborn at doing what they are prevented from), but what's the alternative then?

 

[Fred]

If you put it that way, every country that forbids me to walk around completely naked is not democratic and is no different than a country that forces me to wear a burqa, or a hijab as it's the case with Iran.

True.

I can say the same thing about banning women in Saudi to walk around without a Hijab if we're going to get technical about it. In France you aren't allowed to walk around naked, in Saudi Arabia you aren't allowed to walk around with your head uncovered. The line we draw is arbitrary and is subject to a country's religious beliefs, ideologies, cultural biases, prejudices etc.

What I'm going to say is a mixture of facts and opinions.

Burqa is not an Islamic hijab, that is right. It's not an accident though that a very large proportion of women who wear Burqa are Muslims. This is why this has mostly become a topic Muslims look at as yet another way of harassing Muslims in Europe.

I don't know why Burqa is banned in France. It could be an honest reason that they do it for the sake of women, however, it could well be an outcome of recent intolerance towards Muslims in Western societies. This is what I don't know and this is what I don't care about either. I'm for the ban because this is the right decision regardless of the intentions behind it. It will be for the good of women.

Not true. It will only be good for the women whom are forced to wear a burqa, it won't be good for anyone else.

I've been wearing hijab since I was 9. It was a part of my religion and it's still a part of my clothes. It's actually a part of me so it doesn't bother me that I'm forced to wear it. Many women willingly wear hijab because not having it would be a sin in their religion. Islamic hijab, as far as I know, is not forced on women only because men want their women to cover themselves up. Burqa, on the other hand, is something which has been strictly forced on women through time. Right, some, probably many women now might wear it because they want it themselves but it is historically an extremely manly wish forced on women. Burqa is not a traditional costume. It is men preventing other men to see their women's faces. It is men forcing something on what they consider as their "properties". It is men "protecting" what they "possess". Even if this hypothetical man doesn't force his woman to wear burqa today, it still won't change the story behind it.

What do you base these generalizing statements of yours on?
From my personal experience most of the women i know who wear a burqa wear it out of choice. I highly doubt my personal experience or yours is a representative sample of muslim women, so both aren't really credible in such a discussion. Show me some kind of objective data, statistics or anything like that. Until you do that, the bolded statement is nothing but your own personal experience that is not representative of muslim women in general.

Deneb, living in a country where only certain beliefs can be practiced has not made me become radical on the opposing side. I know well how terrible it is to live in a radical environment, this is what I wouldn't want for anyone. What I'm saying is my opinion as a woman.

I could be wrong but I guess Muslims' judgments here have been clouded by the impression of Muslims being harassed in Europe by this law. I know you guys try hard and loud to buy credibility for your opinions by insisting that "Hey, burqa is not an Islamic hijab, so what we say has nothing to do with Islam or religion, we only care about women's freedom of choosing what they wear" but women rights seems to be the last thing you care about, I'm afraid.

Says the one who wants to place rules that dictate what a woman wears.

True. I know that it could be totally useless (and I also know that it could even make those people more stubborn at doing what they are prevented from), but what's the alternative then?

Are you completely dismissing the possibility that there might exist women that wear the burqa voluntarily??

 

[swag]

True. I know that it could be totally useless (and I also know that it could even make those people more stubborn at doing what they are prevented from), but what's the alternative then?

In countries with freedoms, allow them. It's a matter of opinion, but to me it does more to damage the credibility of a social norm when outsiders can take it or leave it -- versus banning it outright as some statement about the other country. Let them see women walking freely in society without a hijab. And let them see women allowed to wear the burqa for the few who want to.

There's nothing more radical to these types than women with a choice -- not women with choices made for them. Whether those choices are made for them by a repressive society or by a federal government.

 

[only-juve]

I don't like the Burqa but IMO women should be free to choose either wearing the Burqa, hejab or whatever they want to wear.

Its a personal choice.

 

[X Æ A-12]

In countries with freedoms, allow them. It's a matter of opinion, but to me it does more to damage the credibility of a social norm when outsiders can take it or leave it -- versus banning it outright as some statement about the other country. Let them see women walking freely in society without a hijab. And let them see women allowed to wear the burqa for the few who want to.

There's nothing more radical to these types than women with a choice -- not women with choices made for them. Whether those choices are made for them by a repressive society or by a federal government.

 

[JBF]

I've been wearing hijab since I was 9. It was a part of my religion and it's still a part of my clothes. It's actually a part of me so it doesn't bother me that I'm forced to wear it. Many women willingly wear hijab because not having it would be a sin in their religion. Islamic hijab, as far as I know, is not forced on women only because men want their women to cover themselves up. Burqa, on the other hand, is something which has been strictly forced on women through time. Right, some, probably many women now might wear it because they want it themselves but it is historically an extremely manly wish forced on women. Burqa is not a traditional costume. It is men preventing other men to see their women's faces. It is men forcing something on what they consider as their "properties". It is men "protecting" what they "possess". Even if this hypothetical man doesn't force his woman to wear burqa today, it still won't change the story behind it.

That's just not true. I'd love to see where you got those "historic" points of yours. Burqa isn't any diiferent from Hijab when forcing is concerned. Both of them were once forced upon some woman. to solely blame Burqa and bash it like a symbol for woman opression is rediculous.

I know you guys try hard and loud to buy credibility for your opinions by insisting that "Hey, burqa is not an Islamic hijab, so what we say has nothing to do with Islam or religion, we only care about women's freedom of choosing what they wear" but women rights seems to be the last thing you care about, I'm afraid.

Lovely

I couldn't care less about what you make me out to be Hoori, I stand out for what I believe in and ffs I won't fake and twist my own opinion to buy any credibility form you or anyone else for that matter.

And if anything, you're the one whose woman rights' is the last thing on her mind. Simply because you're standing against one of their rights in freedom to choose what to wear but again I'll say it, you've become so biased over this that you can't give a moderate opinion about it anymore.

Greg, And only in France can we have such a law, not in Afghanistan. The next generations of women in France whose grandmothers were forced to wear Burqa and their mothers were forced to not wear Burqa, will be freely practicing their religion, wearing hijab, without being forced to wear Burqa.

All this again assuming most womans wearing a burqa these days are doing so against there will. Which for the thousand times. isn't the case. Get over it already.

 

[Zé Tahir]

I've yet to meet an Iranian Muslim. Either they know something we don't and are holding out on us or they're in complete denial about the fact that when religion (or anything for that matter) is forced down your throat by the writ of the law creates animosity towards that very thing.

 

[king Ale]

So Fred and JBF didn't get it. Who else thinks I, even in the slightest, turned down the possibility of women wearing Burqa willingly? Either I couldn't explain myself or you two were so frustrated that couldn't read properly.

I haven't still gotten over the last night result so I'm not going to go over the whole thing. In a few words, what I said was that even though some, perhaps many, women now wear Burqa willingly, it is historically a manly wish forced on their women. The reason behind the very existence of Burqa is men forcing their women to cover their faces up. Easy, easy, I already said, it is not an Islamic issue. No worries, Islam is not to blame here, shall you now please see me as someone who is just having an opinion? An opinion which has nothing to do with the place I'm living in, the hijab I'm wearing and the problems I have with religions? You two keep insisting over and over that Burqa is not an Islamic hijab, so now just for a minute, have faith in what you say ffs and believe that this IS NOT a religious argument.

Men (could be Muslims or not) have forced their women to conceal their faces so the other men couldn't see them. I'm talking to you about the origins of Burqa. Women used to be considered as men's properties so Burqa was only a way of men protecting what they possessed. There are still men who force their women to wear Burqa. Many women on the other hand are wearing it willingly. But this doesn't matter. Burqa came to existence as a consequence of a horrible cause, which was the macho way men used to see women as. If we agree that such cause has no place in today's society anymore, Burqa is automatically losing its meaning.

 

[Fred]

I'm not saying that you said no women wear it willingly. The question was a leading one, of course you're going to say that some women wear it willingly and out of their own conviction. In which case i ask you, what do you say to them? Tough luck?

How do you know the historic origins of Burqa? Direct me to a reliable source where it says that burqa is historically a thing that was forced upon women by men. You seem to know a lot about this.

 

[king Ale]

No. I direct them to the right way. I know women who are approved of their men marrying as many women as they want. They think this is a right given to men by Islam so they have to obey. And I'm all for a law which forbids this even if those women, who are supposedly the victims of this stupid law, are approved of it. You must stop wrong things to happen and Burqa is wrong Fred.

Secondly, for those women who are forced to wear Burqa, NOTHING but a law preventing women from wearing it would help. Do you know what I mean? This time lets see this as a humane issue. Those women who are willingly wearing Burqa will lose nothing by not wearing it (not to mention that the whole concept behind this hijab is way too sexist). I'd much rather a case when 1000 women are forced to not wear Burqa while 10 other are now not forced to wear it against their will to the situation when 1000 women are wearing Burqa willingly and 10 other are forced to wear it.

 

[WΏΏdy?]

I think you are not able to explain youself well hoori,because your recent few posts suggest a lot of bitterness towards the men from where you live...here are a few quotes which you have mentioned again and again..

"historically men forcing women to wear burqa"
"A few years back, Iranian parliament was going to lay down a law which allowed men"
"Women used to be considered as men's properties so Burqa was only a way of men protecting what they possessed"
"Burqa came to existence as a consequence of a horrible cause, which was the macho way men used to see women as"
"It is men forcing something on what they consider as their "properties". It is men "protecting" what they "possess"


also it might be true where you live in Iran or afghanistan coz i have not been there,but that definitely is not the case to the countries i have been to.



"Women used to be considered as men's properties so Burqa was only a way of men protecting what they possessed"
"Burqa came to existence as a consequence of a horrible cause, which was the macho way men used to see women as"

Unless your major of studies is "opression of women by men using burqa" or you have been living for centuries to provide us with some more insight to support your info,these are just you personel opinions and not something backed by facts...again this might be true in where you live or places like afghanistan or iraq but definitely not in other places....

Most of the protests against the ban,the rallies and stuff are filled with women,in fact everytime i see a protest about this issue it is dominated by women,so maybe they enjoy be dominated by men who force them to wear burqa or love bondage,even in that scenario they have the right to choose


"I know you guys try hard and loud to buy credibility for your opinions by insisting that "Hey, burqa is not an Islamic hijab, so what we say has nothing to do with Islam or religion, we only care about women's freedom of choosing what they wear" but women rights seems to be the last thing you care about, I'm afraid. "

The last thing you seem to care about is women rights or religion....it looks more like a issue you have based on a personel experience,I'm afraid.

 

[king Ale]

I'm not bitter, there has not been any man in my life forcing me to do anything. I'm talking about the past. Women USED TO be considered as men's belongings, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Are you a Muslim? I can then refer you to Qoran if so. Men used to bury their daughters alive in the Jaheliyyah era. Even now, in the 21st century, there are still women only in the Middle East who can't vote. Men still can marry four women at the same time. The history of women fighting for their rights in extremely masculine societies of the past and the present is not the stuff I've made up. It's only that you need to read/study more.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Most of the protests against the ban,the rallies and stuff are filled with women,in fact everytime i see a protest about this issue it is dominated by women,so maybe they enjoy be dominated by men who force them to wear burqa or love bondage,even in that scenario they have the right to choose

That must be a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome.

BTW, I'm just curious. In the present world, is there any other form of face-covering women follow everyday? And I'm not talking about temporary ones like a full body suit a nuclear scientist wears, or a fencing mask. I mean something that a woman, or anyone would wear to, lets say, a shopping mall or a restaurant. Anything like this other than a burqa?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I'm not bitter, there has not been any man in my life forcing me to do anything.

Would you mind me asking if you have or ever had a "man" in your life?

 

[king Ale]

Would you mind me asking if you have or ever had a "man" in your life?

By "man" I mean those who are typically having a say in what their women wear, where they go, who they marry and when they die; Fathers, brothers, husbands.

So yea, I have a father, two brothers and a boyfriend