Bible bashing (12 Viewers)

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Bürke ] ++
True, but I heard that there was also a book of the Bible that was written by Jesus, and it was left out because it says that one needs to look only into themselves to find God, God is not found in buildings. Or something similar to that.

I've never heard that. I'd be a little suprised if it is a reputable rumour to be honest.

 

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[ßöмßäяðîëя]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

I've never heard that. I'd be a little suprised if it is a reputable rumour to be honest.

I'm sure it is some kind urban myth, but still, what if the Vatican had some kind of book written by Jesus we didn't know about?

 

[Dan]

Well, you can all see the fine city I live in when the pope is on TV. I just saw him go by in the boat, and he is holding a speech at our beautiful cathedral soon. I would go actually, but im feeling unwell.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++
Well, you can all see the fine city I live in when the pope is on TV. I just saw him go by in the boat, and he is holding a speech at our beautiful cathedral soon. I would go actually, but im feeling unwell.

That Cathedral is great, I loved walking up and looking all around Köln.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Bürke ] ++
I'm sure it is some kind urban myth, but still, what if the Vatican had some kind of book written by Jesus we didn't know about?

The Vatican has a lot of shit we've never heard of. It never bothered me before.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

The Vatican has a lot of shit we've never heard of. It never bothered me before.

Yea, but wasn't there a problem years ago with face relics?

I just don't like a country the size of my kitchen with the money and power of the whole of Asia.

 

[swag]

Somebody has to keep all those Swiss guards employed who would actually wear that crap...

 

[Dragon]

Ive heard about that book written by Jesus, its supposed to be the fifth gospel, but supposedly the Catholic Church left it out because it cant be proven that it was Jesus the one who wrote it and it says some stuff that they dont want the whole World to know


In that movie called Stigmata at the end the girl finds the Jesus gospel and they say that it does indeed exist but the corrupt church we have nowadays (and well, that weve always had) doesnt want to release it

 

[Slagathor]

Snoop - I meant it's impossible that the Quran hasn't changed.

 

[jaecole]

Ever think that maybe the world isn't ready for it? Maybe there is a reason it isn't released and maybe it isn't supposed to have been released yet.

I bet it's mega.

Though no, I don't buy it.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

++ [ originally posted by fabiana ] ++
Ive heard about that book written by Jesus, its supposed to be the fifth gospel, but supposedly the Catholic Church left it out because it cant be proven that it was Jesus the one who wrote it and it says some stuff that they dont want the whole World to know

See, that is what I'm talking about, they are punks I think.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Yes we do believe the Quran is unaltered.The translations and such differ and they change, but the original text itself remain the same

 

[scorpion10]

Don't mean to offend you snoop, but i know a lot about christianity because my mom was a christian and I have lots of christian friends. It isn't my opinion, I've actually heard people say this.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
I'll just do some (bad flu, sore throat and quite sleepy mind you)



The reference is to a plot made by the Apostle's enemies to kill him when he was returning from Tabuk. The plot failed. It was all the more dastardly in that some of the conspirators were among the men of Medina, who were enriched by the general prosperity that followed the peace and good government established through Islam in Medina. Trade flourished: justice was firmly administered with an even hand. And the only return that these men could make was a return of evil for good. That was their revenge, because Islam aimed at suppressing selfishness, stood for the rights of the poorest and humblest, and judged worth by righteousness rather than by birth or position.

This text was from Sura Tauba; the sura in part of its summary:

.....the Byzantine invasion did not come off. But the Apostle took the opportunity of consolidating the Muslim position in that direction and making treaties of alliance with certain Christian and Jewish tribes near the Gulf of Aqaba. On his return to Medina he considered the situation. DUring his absence the Hypocrites had played, as always, a double game, and the policy hitherto followed, of free access to the sacred centre of Islam, to Muslims and Pagans alike, was now altered, as it had been abused by the enemies of Islam.





Taken from Sura Muhammad;

... which deals with the organisation of the Muslim Ummat or community both for external defence and in internal relations. The present Sura deals with the necessity of defence against external foes by courage and strenuous fighting, and dates from about the first year of the Hijra, when the Muslims were under threat of extinction by invasion of Mecca.

When once the fight (Jihad) is entered upon, carry it out with utmost vigour, and strike home your blows at the most vital points. You cannot wage war with kid gloves.

In the first onset there must necessarily be great loss of life: but when the enemy is fairly beaten, which means, in a Jihad, that he is not likely to seek again the persecution of Truth, firm arrangements should be made to bring him under control.

When once the enemy is brought under control, generosity (ie the release of prisoners without ransom) or ransom is recommended




There must've been a mistake; because in the fifth Sura (Maida) the 33-34 is actually:

"The (selfish) soul of the other let him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones." (33)

"Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother, 'Woe is me!' said he: 'Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother'? Then he became full of regrets" -

Which is actually a different story altogether.

Good job Sally.

Except for the last part. What Andy posted is indeed from Al-Maida(surah 5) verse 33. Funny though as verse 34 was cited in Andy's post, but not quoted. Here's verse 34:

" Except those who repent before you have them in your power. So know that ALLAH is Most Forgiving, Merciful."

Andy, please, if you would like to quote verses, please read them; read up on what they are about. What exactly they address. You're in college... you should be doing better research than this. I say this because I expect higher standards from you.

Anyhow, I've read ahead and I see that you've all reached the conclusion that verses can't be taken out of context.

As for explaining that particular verse verse (5:33):
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed[, ]or crucified, or to have their hands and feet chopped off on opposite sides, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror."

It's clear to see that yes, in Islam, we are allowed to kill those who wage war against us. The punishments mentioned above are respective to the crimes. Those who fight Islam, will be killed. Respectively, those who stive for curruption, will be crucified, or to have their hands and feet chopped off on opposite sides. This last part is referring to Islam's law of crucifing those who rob and rape travelers and leave them stranded. The chopping part if for theives who steal over a certain set limit. First offenders will have their left hand cut off. If they repeat the crime, they lose their opposite (right) foot. If they repeat, they lose their right hand. If again they repeat, they lose their left foot. After that, I honestly don't know the punishment. However, i'd imagine that, without limbs, they'd have a hard time doing day to day stuff let alone of stealing again. I've never heard of a case where it got past the first offense. Being expelled is a punishment for a different crime and so on. These are all included in "strive after corruption in the land.

Again, the next verse goes on to say that we have to forgive those who have repented (before they were caught) and how allah is merciful.


**Sally: you were citing verses 30 and 31 of the same Surah.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Chxta ] ++
Problem is that both Jaecole's texts from the Bible, and Andy's from Al-Qu'ran were taken just contextually.

It has been my experiance of (not only) religious books that when you just focus on a sentence or verse, you tend to draw interpretations that are rather different from those you draw if you just sit down and read the whole passage.

Thank you Chxta.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

I seem to recall Muslims here claiming that the Quran is unaltered and untranslated. The Bible, of couse, isn't a book so much as an omnibus edition of the early holy books of the various Christian cults, with a large number left out for inconsistancies with the then dogma of the unified (ie Roman Empire-controlled) church. Umpteen translations later, there's bound to be a bit of confusion.

That's correct John. The Arabic version is unultered and not retransulated.

The versionthat is in my hand now is WORD FOR WORD, accent for accent, exactly the same as it was 1400 years ago. You will not find two different Qurans anywhere in the world.

When Islam was spreading beyond the Arabian paninsula, accents and dots (to letters that looked the same) were even invented to make sure that people pronounced all the words in the Quran correctly.
Before the Quran was written, it was memorized by hundreds of the prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) companions.

I've read claims that a couple different versions that have small differences exist, but those versions are not followed and they are a result of bad copying.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
Snoop - I meant it's impossible that the Quran hasn't changed.

Not to use this as an argument, but it's funny that you say this. There are verses in the Quran that say how the Quran itself won't be lost and will remain till judgment day. The quran, in it's content, as a piece of literature, and it remaining till the end of time is one of the miracles in Islam.

 

[Kaiser Franco]

++ [ originally posted by Altair ] ++


Excellent point throughout though I wouldn't put dante and milton in the same sentence. Paradise Lost is a chef d'oeuvres with few equals.

And the Divina Commedia is what? A bit of reading for the pooproom?

 

[Slagathor]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
Not to use this as an argument, but it's funny that you say this. There are verses in the Quran that say how the Quran itself won't be lost and will remain till judgment day.

LOL Where's Graham?

The quran, in it's content, as a piece of literature, and it remaining till the end of time is one of the miracles in Islam.

Oh I'm not saying the main messages and the chore of the faith is altered by it - but it's impossible for a work of literature not to change, even if only to a very small extent.

That's my opinion anyway. I think it's obvious I'm an atheist for it, right?

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
LOL Where's Graham?

Oh I'm not saying the main messages and the chore of the faith is altered by it - but it's impossible for a work of literature not to change, even if only to a very small extent.

That's my opinion anyway. I think it's obvious I'm an atheist for it, right?

Obvious enough, yeah.

Seriously though. NOT even a single alteration in pronouncing a single word, let alone writing it different!!
As muslims, we are not even allowed to translate the quran. We're only allowed to translate the meaning.

The Qur'an that I have next to my computer is EXACTLY the same as what was recited 1400 years ago. If I were to time-travel 1400 years ago, then I would be able to communicate with the Arabs of that time. I would understand them perfectly, but they may have trouble understanding me becaue my dialect (spoken form) is one of the many Saudi dialects of speach. However, If i were to write, then the only accepted form would be in true Arabic. That's what all our text books are in. The newspapers, the books, the signs, the instructions ona booklet are all in the same arabic that was written AND spoken 1400 years ago.

I know that i'm over-killing my point, but knowing English, I see how it's strange for non-Arabic speakers to think that Arabic or the Qur'an hasn't changed.