Best Midfielders (2 Viewers)

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Karlberg ] ++


KEANE? Yeah, about five years and 5 billion braincells ago...

I took part in a huge debate on who's the best defensive mid in England once. About a dozen guys argued Keane. About the same Viera. Once guy (a nearly fanatical England fan) had the cheek to argue Gerrard. These are EPL fans. Gerard is a step below the other two. Wonderful potential - he will likely match them over the course of his career, but not yet. No one who watches English football and who has three or more firing brain cells argues that Gerard is as good as Keane or Viera.

Anyway, that aside, many people were ignoring Keane here. I won't go into how good his is. The debate raged for hours, and we never came to a satisfactory conclusion. Great points were made for both sides that evening, but only one sticks with me. An avid Arsenal fan said the following:

"If I wanted to win one game, I'd want Viera in my team. He's the more talented player by a small margin. But if I wanted to win a league, I'd have to go for Keane. There's no stopping him."

Don't agree? Ask Van Bommell and Cocu.

 

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[DAVIDZ]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


That simply is not true. Zidane lacks in many areas. He is niether strong, nor fast. He has no ability with his head, his free-kicks are average, his shooting/finishing ability is questionable. He may have great vision, passing, and dribbling, but he doesn't have those skills more than some other players. Ballack is a better playmaker than Zidane.

1. I never said Zidane is fast or has heading abilities.

2. His vision, dribbling and passing IS above other players.

3. Saying that Ballack is a better playmaker because he scores from free kicks and headers does not make any sense. Thats more of a striker's role. A playmaker makes things happen from open play and Zidane with his creativity and passing does exactly that better than anyone else.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by DAVIDZ ] ++
1. I never said Zidane is fast or has heading abilities.

No, you did not say that, but nevertheless, those things take away from his playmaking ability.

++ [ originally posted by DAVIDZ ] ++
2. His vision, dribbling and passing IS above other players.

That's a matter of opinion, but I think that if you watched some film on the subject that you might think otherwise.

++ [ originally posted by DAVIDZ ] ++
3. Saying that Ballack is a better playmaker because he scores from free kicks and headers does not make any sense. Thats more of a striker's role. A playmaker makes things happen from open play and Zidane with his creativity and passing does exactly that better than anyone else.

Actually, Ballack is a better playmaker because he can do what Zidane can do and he can do much more. Even if Zidane has a slight edge in passing and dribbling (and it can only be slight as Ballack is very good at both), Ballack is superior in shooting, finishing, heading, strength, and speed.

 

[Majed]

The best playmaker in the world is Zidane
period!

 

[Christian_Vieri]

Rickenbacker, in most people's eyes Zidane is the best player in the world. You could argue that Ballack overall is a better player than Zidane - that wouldn't be an illogical argument. But saying Ballack is a better playmaker than Zidane? That's a bit ridiculous. If you think Zidane isn't fast, ok so be it, but how does it interfere with his game? Zidane lacking strength is another ludicrous comment. Zidane is not among the best headers in the world, but he's no poor header, and his free kicks are above average if you ask me, though you can argue otherwise. It matters little when you have R. Carlos in the same team. Ronaldo is no free kick specialist; so what? He wasn't the best player back in 96/97? Furthermore, make no mistake, Zidane can't pull off 30 metre triggers like Ballack, but when you talk about finishing, when given an opportunity, he hardly ever misses more than the bar. Ballack's guts and hunger for goals make him a fiersome player, but his touches, vision, and his 3rd sense of the game aren't anywhere near of Zizou's calibre.

As Majed said, the best playmaker in the world is Zidane. The best player.......that's a whole different catagory.

 

[Christian_Vieri]

wingers: giggs, beckham, figo, joaquin, schneider
AM's: Zidane, Ballack, Aimar, Totti, Ronaldinho
DM's: Vieira, Baraja, Davids, Makalele, Keane (they all are pretty much even)

 

[Primo]

wingers: beckham, figo, camoranesi
att.mids: aimar, nedved, zidane, ronaldinho, how about that Joe Cole?
def.mids: davids, vieira

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
Rickenbacker, in most people's eyes Zidane is the best player in the world. You could argue that Ballack overall is a better player than Zidane - that wouldn't be an illogical argument. But saying Ballack is a better playmaker than Zidane? That's a bit ridiculous. If you think Zidane isn't fast, ok so be it, but how does it interfere with his game? Zidane lacking strength is another ludicrous comment. Zidane is not among the best headers in the world, but he's no poor header, and his free kicks are above average if you ask me, though you can argue otherwise. It matters little when you have R. Carlos in the same team. Ronaldo is no free kick specialist; so what? He wasn't the best player back in 96/97? Furthermore, make no mistake, Zidane can't pull off 30 metre triggers like Ballack, but when you talk about finishing, when given an opportunity, he hardly ever misses more than the bar. Ballack's guts and hunger for goals make him a fiersome player, but his touches, vision, and his 3rd sense of the game aren't anywhere near of Zizou's calibre.

As Majed said, the best playmaker in the world is Zidane. The best player.......that's a whole different catagory.

Well then it appears that we have a different sense of what makes a good playmaker. I value all around ability, while youvalue more specifically those abilities that allow him to set up plays. While I think that those things are important, I think that they can't make up for Zidane's lacking in other areas.

 

[Dj Juve]

joe cole can be one of the best..but he isnt going to do that at west ham

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
wingers: giggs, beckham, figo, joaquin, schneider
AM's: Zidane, Ballack, Aimar, Totti, Ronaldinho
DM's: Vieira, Baraja, Davids, Makalele, Keane (they all are pretty much even)

Add to your list:

wingers: Ljuneberg, Overmars and Pires
AM: Rivaldo

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
wingers: Ljuneberg, Overmars and Pires

Excellent additions.

 

[Adrian]

DM: vieira, davids, keane, ballack, helguera
RM: figo, becks, seedorf, camoranesi, zanetti, freddie
LM: nedved, pires, giggs, denilson
AM: Zidane, rui costa, totti, aimar

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


Excellent additions.

thnx

 

[Christian_Vieri]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


Well then it appears that we have a different sense of what makes a good playmaker. I value all around ability, while you value more specifically those abilities that allow him to set up plays. While I think that those things are important, I think that they can't make up for Zidane's lacking in other areas.

Well a playmaker's job is to make plays, no? Your definition of a playmaker seems to be a player who can make plays, attack, defend, score, head, sprint at a dashing speed, or any other aspect of a footballer's game. So a defender has to know how to score goals in order to be a good defender? It'll definitely be a plus, but it won't make him any less of a defender. Zidane does what's assigned for him in his position. To a lesser degree he does have to defend (believe/accept it or not, he's actually a good defender) for his team, but primarily, to a greater extent, it's the DM's job who plays behind Zizou. If he wasn't a good defender it'll take little away from him, but if he wasn't a good passer the effect of his game would be totally opposite. Ballack is one of the most complete midfielders out there, but again, he's not as good a playmaker.
You said everything Zidane can do Ballack can also, but even more. How so?? The only advantages Ballack has over Zizou are his goal scoring abilities: shots, headers; aggression; and possibly speed and stamina. Is Ballack as good a passer as el Maestro? What about his vision? His touch? How about their level of experience?.....No, not even close. Don't lessen the player's true capabilities for the sake of your own argument.

 

[Dj Juve]

oh my, this is gonna be fun .....

 

[DAVIDZ]

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++


Well a playmaker's job is to make plays, no? Your definition of a playmaker seems to be a player who can make plays, attack, defend, score, head, sprint at a dashing speed, or any other aspect of a footballer's game.

The only advantages Ballack has over Zizou are his goal scoring abilities: shots, headers; aggression; and possibly speed and stamina. Is Ballack as good a passer as el Maestro? What about his vision? His touch? How about their level of experience?.....No, not even close. Don't lessen the player's true capabilities for the sake of your own argument.

Excellent summation.

 

[sheva]

Hey guys I think this is a great discussion/ argument
However I truly believe that on Rui Costa's day that he is better than Zidane. Zizou was a late bloomer at Juve , wasn't he? He was never really the of Juve until Del Piero's injury. I think Rui Costa has always been magical but could never get the recognition until recently because he plays for Milan now.
You see a player is never going to win World Player of the Year unless his team WINS something.
Zidane-Played for Juventus the dreadest side and France,World Cup and Euro.

Rui -Played at Fiorentina forever and Portugal.Yes good sides , but never the best:dazed:
The same for Shevchenko. Single handedly took Ukraine to the World Cup Playoffs being leading scorer at the time.Or for Dynamo Kiev where he beat every big side in the world that they played in Champions League, Real ,Barca,Arsenal,Bayern,and I think Lazio tooUntil Ukraine win something he could never get it.
Anyway,You see of recent matches Rui seems to either be the cheese in the cheese cake or the Parmatti of Juve.But even in Ac vs Real ,Rui did outclass Mybe its just me , but Real did go for Rui first, before Silvio Berscolini(really bad spelling), president of Italy stepped in.Anyway there are lots of young talents that could definately surpass Zizou, because when Zidane was 23-25 he definately wasn't as good as D'allesandro, Riquelme, Aimar, Van der Vart, Robinho,Diego etc.
Later Sheva.

 

[Layce Erayce]

imho zizou certainly was a late bloomer.....but he had the chance to do great and he grabbed it with both hands(he'd have used his feet too, but he was kicking a ball with em)

anyways, being in a team like france, etc etc etc really paid off for him- he was lucky. and so were we.....

 

[juvelover]

Vieira

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
Well a playmaker's job is to make plays, no?

Absolutely true, but the more skills a play-maker has, the more he can make plays.

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
Your definition of a playmaker seems to be a player who can make plays, attack, defend, score, head, sprint at a dashing speed, or any other aspect of a footballer's game. So a defender has to know how to score goals in order to be a good defender? It'll definitely be a plus, but it won't make him any less of a defender.

That's not the point I was making. Greater finishing ability does not enhance one's defending ability. Greater speed or strength does enhance one's playmaking abilities.

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
Zidane does what's assigned for him in his position. To a lesser degree he does have to defend (believe/accept it or not, he's actually a good defender) for his team, but primarily, to a greater extent, it's the DM's job who plays behind Zizou. If he wasn't a good defender it'll take little away from him, but if he wasn't a good passer the effect of his game would be totally opposite. Ballack is one of the most complete midfielders out there, but again, he's not as good a playmaker.

Whether or not Zidane is a good defender is not important, Ballack is better. Ballack's abilities are greater than Zidane's in many areas. Do you not think that Ballack's edge in speed and strength make him a better playmaker?

++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
You said everything Zidane can do Ballack can also, but even more. How so?? The only advantages Ballack has over Zizou are his goal scoring abilities: shots, headers; aggression; and possibly speed and stamina. Is Ballack as good a passer as el Maestro? What about his vision? His touch? How about their level of experience?.....No, not even close. Don't lessen the player's true capabilities for the sake of your own argument.

Ballack these advantages over Zidane: Free-kicking ability, Finishing, Shooting, Heading, Strength, Speed, Stamina, Tackling, Marking, and he makes better runs off of the ball. In all of those things, Ballack is significantly better than Zidane. Zidane may be a better passer or have better touch, but only marginally. And thus, I conclude that Ballack is the superior player and the superior play-maker.

Furthermore, I haven't "lessened" Zidane's abilities at all. I doubt that you could effectively argue that Zidane is a better finisher than Ballack or that he is stronger. I don't evaluate a player's skills for the sake of making an arguement, this arguement arose because of the way that I have evaluated his skills.