Baltimore Riots/Freddie Gray (18 Viewers)

[Seven]

No one said anything about fair tho. The idea is that you can work yourself out of a bad spot.

People in poverty are being blamed for digging themselves a deeper hole. Look at what Hoori said, often times poorer people, which in Philly tend to be black, are almost always the ones who refuse to act civilized in class, learn, or care about anything. There's plenty of jobs and businesses they could go into, even landscaping for example. But they look down on those jobs for some reason. Can't scruff your new Jordans you spent your entire money on.

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Because their poverty prevents them from being educated enough to dig themselves out. If your mother is a crackhead and your father is nowhere to be seen, how are you going to educate yourself about money and finances? You just don't.

 

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[Hust]

What? My whole point was that luck is a decisive factor.. I never said hard work had nothing to do with it. My point is that sometimes bad luck does get in the way of success.

Ok, then somewhere in our 9,000 posts I must have missed your main argument. Luck obviously does play a part.

Even with bad luck: such as your insane argument about being born with down syndrome; a good idea, hard work and yes a little bit of luck (or a lot of it) you can find your piece of the pie.


The point of the American Dream is the opportunity to achieve your goals is easier than most places in the world with less holding you back. Part of my argument if you read my posts where I agreed with Ocelot is that it is becoming harder and harder.

 

[Seven]

Ok, then somewhere in our 9,000 posts I must have missed your main argument. Luck obviously does play a part.

Even with bad luck: such as your insane argument about being born with down syndrome; a good idea, hard work and yes a little bit of luck (or a lot of it) you can find your piece of the pie.


The point of the American Dream is the opportunity to achieve your goals is easier than most places in the world with less holding you back. Part of my argument if you read my posts where I agreed with Ocelot is that it is becoming harder and harder.

Dear God. This is exactly like the self defense argument. Thousands of posts to find out we essentially.. agree.

Why I call the American Dream a lie is because it downplays the luck factor and is thus often used to blame poor people whereas they often are just as much a victum of circumstance.

 

[swag]

I can relate to this thought. A year or so there was a big media fuss about "lazy robert" in Denmark. He was on social help and accomodated his life to that amount of money simply because he didnt want to work. He spent his time at a local pub and made it look like he was having a good time doing so.

I landed on the conclusion that if you want to have a working sociaæ safety net you have to accept a lazy robert or two and focus on the people in need of said help. There will always be, regardless of how you rig the system, people who will take advantage of it - on both sides of the scale. What is hurting society more, the idiots on welfare who accomodate their living standards to it or the people at the very top who arent paying taxes in the country and who spend money buying political influence to stack more cheese?

Politically, however, there are some people who feel the balance is right in preventing the one person from taking advantage of the system as worth the collateral damage costs of denying thousands of legitimately eligible people.

Dawg, the American dream is true for any poor person from a third world country that would work as a janitor for minimum wage to support their family.

I'm not sure the term "American dream" means anything. What does have meaning are thousands of Guatemalan children navigating bloodthirsty gangs of northern Mexico to get here. People paying coyotes at the risk of death in crossing the border. And when they get here, it's not about sitting vacant and receiving government paychecks for idleness -- because the simple act of registering would betray their risk of deportation as illegals. They're lining up in front of Home Depots to work odd jobs (and you won't find a single unemployed African American lining up in front of Home Depot).

They know the game, but it's worth it to them. Because the economic prospects are better for them and they have more control and influence over their future and security in that way than they could in their homelands. That's kind of the basics right there.

What Seven is saying is actually true. I realized it's common for Americans (not all) to say someone is poor because they're lazy and that's definitely not the case.

It's a very Calvinist philosophy: riches are partly a reflect of hard work but also God's love. Poverty means you're lazy and God doesn't like you.

But America is largely founded on an immigrant culture. People who came overseas to here not even knowing the language, let alone with any financial resources at their disposal. And many of these families managed to be self-starters and made it. We're not even talking always the best and brightest either, as many of those fared well enough in their own home countries to warrant remaining there at least semi-successfully. (People forget this about a lot of the Mexican middle class here.)

The circumstances for people who immigrated here in an involuntary manner is one thing. But essentially the immigrant story of starting from nothing in a new land becomes the common image that gets projected on everyone. Now not everyone in this country had the resourcefulness or fortune to make something comfortable out of their lives out of nothing. But the fact that many have sets that expectation. Thus I believe this feeds into the mentality that continued poverty suggests a greater failure or dysfunction that includes the people in these circumstances and the question of their character.

 

[Hust]

No one said anything about fair tho. The idea is that you can work yourself out of a bad spot.

People in poverty are being blamed for digging themselves a deeper hole. Look at what Hoori said, often times poorer people, which in Philly tend to be black, are almost always the ones who refuse to act civilized in class, learn, or care about anything. There's plenty of jobs and businesses they could go into, even landscaping for example. But they look down on those jobs for some reason. Can't scruff your new Jordans you spent your entire money on.

There are poor people and there are poor people that spend money on collecting new Jordans or coughing up 50-100 a week on pot, liquor and/or partying. Big difference between the two.

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Dear God. This is exactly like the self defense argument. Thousands of posts to find out we essentially.. agree.

Why I call the American Dream a lie is because it downplays the luck factor and is thus often used to blame poor people whereas they often are just as much a victum of circumstance.

I swear I think we have had this exact same discussion before between you and I:

Here is the def of the AD:

The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States, a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility for the family and children, achieved through hard work in a society with few barriers.

 

[ALC]

Because their poverty prevents them from being educated enough to dig themselves out. If your mother is a crackhead and your father is nowhere to be seen, how are you going to educate yourself about money and finances? You just don't.

Yeah, a bad family influence/no family presence can definitely fuck you over. And it is a complicated issue with no simple solution but I don't see why it needs to continue being that way, It's called learning from mistakes but many pick the easy way out by perpetuating the same lifestyle.

 

[Seven]

There are poor people and there are poor people that spend money on collecting new Jordans or coughing up 50-100 a week on pot, liquor and/or partying. Big difference between the two.

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I swear I think we have had this exact same discussion before between you and I:

Here is the def of the AD:

Yes, Hustini, but that is not what is being portrayed on American tv and in commercials. What is always being said is: if you work hard, you will know success. Even AndreaWhatever literally said as much.

And that, unfortunately, is patently untrue. Working hard is one factor of success. A little bit of luck is another.

 

[Hust]

Back to the topic of the thread:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...hpModule_99d5f542-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394

Plot Twist: he banged himself up in the back of the police van according to the other criminal locked up in the back.


Will be curious to see how accurate it is and if it is accurate how downplayed the media will make it. Sounds like another Trayvon/Brown scenario where people overreacted before the facts were made clear.

 

[Seven]

Yeah, a bad family influence/no family presence can definitely fuck you over. And it is a complicated issue with no simple solution but I don't see why it needs to continue being that way, It's called learning from mistakes but many pick the easy way out by perpetuating the same lifestyle.

My parents are both doctors. I'm a lawyer. You could say I picked the easy way out by perpetuating the same lifestyle too. It's easy to just do what you know.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

There are poor people and there are poor people that spend money on collecting new Jordans or coughing up 50-100 a week on pot, liquor and/or partying. Big difference between the two.

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I swear I think we have had this exact same discussion before between you and I:

Here is the def of the AD:

Nail on the head

 

[Hængebøffer]

Just look at the shitty social mobility in the US. Nuff said.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Just look at the $#@!ty social mobility in the US. Nuff said.

Says the person that's not American

 

[Martin]

Says the person that's not American

that was deep

are you really 39? I thought you were like late 20s

 

[AndreaCristiano]

that was deep

are you really 39? I thought you were like late 20s

Nope 39. It wasn't supposed to be deep. I may be a dual citizen but I live my life here day in and day out. For someone who has no idea of what life is truly like here to comment is ridiculous. They haven't lived or worked or owned a business here. They do not know. They can read all they want it isn't the same.

 

[Hængebøffer]

Nope 39. It wasn't supposed to be deep. I may be a dual citizen but I live my life here day in and day out. For someone who has no idea of what life is truly like here to comment is ridiculous. They haven't lived or worked or owned a business here. They do not know. They can read all they want it isn't the same.

You don't live on another planet.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

You don't live on another planet.

What does that mean? I can speculate on other countries and how there economies work but unless I actually work in that economy and see first hand it is only that speculation

 

[Enron]

As ignorant as Hustini and Andrea are, they aren´t wrong. The American Dream isnt a lie. It cant be, its a dream. Sometimes dreams come true, sometimes they dont. We dont call it the American Truth or the American Standard of Living that everyone will achieve.

However, its much more difficult to climb the social ladder these days. Especially in major cities like Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago where poorly thought out policy has seen those good blue caller jobs one could use to move up in the world disappear. We all have stories about relatives moving to the US and climbing the socio-economic ladder, working hard, and making a life for our families. However, most of this was done some time ago when we had a growing middle class and economic infrastructure was in place to encourage upward mobility. However, today things are much different and unless Pappy made his mark in the last 5 years, his story isn´t relevant.

 

[Hængebøffer]

I give up.

 

[Hængebøffer]

As ignorant as Hustini and Andrea are, they aren´t wrong. The American Dream isnt a lie. It cant be, its a dream. Sometimes dreams come true, sometimes they dont. We dont call it the American Truth or the American Standard of Living that everyone will achieve.

However, its much more difficult to climb the social ladder these days. Especially in major cities like Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago where poorly thought out policy has seen those good blue caller jobs one could use to move up in the world disappear. We all have stories about relatives moving to the US and climbing the socio-economic ladder, working hard, and making a life for our families. However, most of this was done some time ago when we had a growing middle class and economic infrastructure was in place to encourage upward mobility. However, today things are much different and unless Pappy made his mark in the last 5 years, his story isn´t relevant.

True. It's an illusion.

 

[Hust]

As ignorant as Hustini and Andrea are, they aren´t wrong. The American Dream isnt a lie. It cant be, its a dream. Sometimes dreams come true, sometimes they dont. We dont call it the American Truth or the American Standard of Living that everyone will achieve.

However, its much more difficult to climb the social ladder these days. Especially in major cities like Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago where poorly thought out policy has seen those good blue caller jobs one could use to move up in the world disappear. We all have stories about relatives moving to the US and climbing the socio-economic ladder, working hard, and making a life for our families. However, most of this was done some time ago when we had a growing middle class and economic infrastructure was in place to encourage upward mobility. However, today things are much different and unless Pappy made his mark in the last 5 years, his story isn´t relevant.

how exactly am I ignorant? Because I don't agree with you in suddenly ignorant?