Baltimore Riots/Freddie Gray (13 Viewers)

[AndreaCristiano]

No. They are saying something vastly different.

No they aren't you're seeing it that way

 

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[Seven]

I'm not.

They say if you work hard AND are lucky, you will succeed. I agree.

You say if you work hard, you will succeed. That is something else entirely.

 

[ALC]

I'm not saying people don't deserve credit if they work hard and are successful. I'm saying that circumstances play a huge part in life. Denying that is not only lying, but it is also a slap in the face of millions who were not as fortunate as you were. That's my problem with Hustini and AndreaCristiano.

They definitely do play a part, there's no denying that. Still can't be used as an excuse and still doesn't mean you can't succeed in life if you don't work hard.

There will probably always be a lower class, just means you have to try harder to get somewhere. Use your ingenuity to get to the top. You don't have to play by the book where you go to college and then just expect a job.

Some people will be held back by burdens, such as having to provide for younger siblings or being young yourself and turning into a single parent all of a sudden. Shit like that is common everywhere but people have shown they can overcome. Not all of them will, but if one in a hundred does it, that provides hope and inspiration to the rest. And as long as people have hope, they'll keep succeeding. Look at third world countries and tell me what hope the lower class has over there.

 

[Seven]

They definitely do play a part, there's no denying that. Still can't be used as an excuse and still doesn't mean you can't succeed in life if you don't work hard.

There will probably always be a lower class, just means you have to try harder to get somewhere. Use your ingenuity to get to the top. You don't have to play by the book where you go to college and then just expect a job.

Some people will be held back by burdens, such as having to provide for younger siblings or being young yourself and turning into a single parent all of a sudden. Shit like that is common everywhere but people have shown they can overcome. Not all of them will, but if one in a hundred does it, that provides hope and inspiration to the rest. And as long as people have hope, they'll keep succeeding. Look at third world countries and tell me what hope the lower class has over there.

Yes, I agree with all that you're saying. But my beef with American society is that it will always hold the poor accountable. There is no room for nuance or consideration. If you're poor, you're deemed lazy. And that illusion is about to burst.

 

[IliveForJuve]

Yes, I agree with all that you're saying. But my beef with American society is that it will always hold the poor accountable. There is no room for nuance or consideration. If you're poor, you're deemed lazy. And that illusion is about to burst.

What Seven is saying is actually true. I realized it's common for Americans (not all) to say someone is poor because they're lazy and that's definitely not the case.

Here's the bottom line: you can be a hard worker and still be poor because you don't know how to manage your personal finances.

 

[Ocelot]

Something as unpredictable as cancer shouldn't be taken into account for this discussion. And no, America won't make you rich but at least draws the starting line closer between the rich and the poor. In other words, it gives you the tools to succeed.

Compared to a lot of countries (which largely are this way because of colonialism and later on libertarian economic policies that the US pressured them into imposing) yes.

Compared to the US fifty years ago, or any western European country, hell no.

But yeah, the cancer argument is stupid.

Also, there's a reason anecdotal evidence is called a fallacy.

The American Dream when understood as a basic ethos for the whole population is a lie. Of course there are individuals who do improve their situation through hard work, but there are much more who don't. It doesn't work as a foundation for a whole society, not with the current socio-economic circumstances and set-up. Thus, the preaching of the American Dream often isn't much more than a method of keeping the poor happy and at work, dreaming of a better life most them won't succeed. And to quote one of the many amazing quotes in an otherwise morally pretty messed up work (imo), "they are slowly learning that fact".

 

[king Ale]

It is this lie that angers people. Hard work might pay off. If you have money to begin with, choose the right field or are insanely lucky. A society that claims everything can be achieved through hard work lies to its citizens. If you are left broke and sick because of bad luck or because of who your parents are, it must sting when people insist it's your own damn fault for "being lazy".

This lie needs to stop. Fast.

Let's say for example you studied law. Everyone always told you law was an excellent choice. Don't worry about the debt, you'll more than make up for it. 150k a year at least, right? So you've worked your ass off, got awesome grades and finished law school. Now you find out the market is completely saturated, no one wants to offer you a job and you're left with a huge amount of debt. Essentially, you're worse off than you were before you ever started college. Then you read, again, that your hard work will pay off and that if you're poor, you're just lazy. Awesome.

And this is arguably what happens to some upper class people. Nevermind what happens when you start at the bottom.

Read what I wrote. I said much more so than most other places in the world. In the country that I come from there is absolutely no power supporting poor people. And yes, they are also dealing with drugs, and yes, they are also uneducated, and yes, they are also living an hour away from the richest people in the country (which may well be among the richest in the world) and yes, some of them are also minorities who are far less privileged in Iran than African-Americans are in the US. Obstacles that African-Americans have to deal with in this country are not even comparable to what many other people in the world have to deal with. Many of these young people have barely ever experienced racism, at least not more so than other minorities in the very same US. Of course when you find it convenient to play your race card all the time you won't feel any responsibility to take matters into your own hands. Of course you won't care to be a good parent. Of course you won't teach your kid that they are as valuable as any other human being, as intelligent as anybody else, and as capable as any other American to build a decent life. I've been teaching this college-level course six times now in the past two years. The school is private and the students are all from financially decent to rich families. Yet my African-American students are always, consistently, my poorest students not only in terms of grades but also in terms of attitude. They simply don't care. They don't show up, they don't listen, they don't pay attention, they don't respect and yes, they have parents who are paying such crazy tuition. Hiring female or African-American faculty members here in the US improve a university's rankings but how many African-American professors do we have in our entire school? Zero. How many African-American PhD students do we have in the entire PhD program? Zero. And I'm talking about a city whose population is plus 40% black.

 

[Ocelot]

Here's the bottom line: you can be a hard worker and still be poor because you don't know how to manage your personal finances.

Or because you never got a chance at any decent education, your mother lives alone and got you when she was 16, half of the people in your environment are drug addicts and the best job you'll ever be able to get barely covers your living expenses.

 

[Hust]

They definitely do play a part, there's no denying that. Still can't be used as an excuse and still doesn't mean you can't succeed in life if you don't work hard.

There will probably always be a lower class, just means you have to try harder to get somewhere. Use your ingenuity to get to the top. You don't have to play by the book where you go to college and then just expect a job.

Some people will be held back by burdens, such as having to provide for younger siblings or being young yourself and turning into a single parent all of a sudden. Shit like that is common everywhere but people have shown they can overcome. Not all of them will, but if one in a hundred does it, that provides hope and inspiration to the rest. And as long as people have hope, they'll keep succeeding. Look at third world countries and tell me what hope the lower class has over there.

Again, I keep saying this. It all depends on what your own personal definition of success is.

 

[Seven]

Compared to a lot of countries (which largely are this way because of colonialism and later on libertarian economic policies that the US pressured them into imposing) yes.

Compared to the US fifty years ago, or any western European country, hell no.

But yeah, the cancer argument is stupid.

Also, there's a reason anecdotal evidence is called a fallacy.

The American Dream when understood as a basic ethos for the whole population is a lie. Of course there are individuals who do improve their situation through hard work, but there are much more who don't. It doesn't work as a foundation for a whole society, not with the current socio-economic circumstances and set-up. Thus, the preaching of the American Dream often isn't much more than a method of keeping the poor happy and at work, dreaming of a better life most them won't succeed. And to quote one of the many amazing quotes in an otherwise morally pretty messed up work (imo), "they are slowly learning that fact".

I specifically picked out cancer, because the American Dream is one of the mechanisms that is used to disguise how American government fails to provide even the most basic of human needs: affordable healthcare. My argument was never really about cancer.

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Again, I keep saying this. It all depends on what your own personal definition of success is.

No. In fact you said the opposite. It's like your self defense argument. Your lack of nuance is making it very hard for me to understand what you mean.

 

[Hust]

Read what I wrote. I said much more so than most other places in the world. In the country that I come from there is absolutely no power supporting poor people. And yes, they are also dealing with drugs, and yes, they are also uneducated, and yes, they are also living an hour away from the richest people in the country (which may well be among the richest in the world) and yes, some of them are also minorities who are far less privileged in Iran than African-Americans are in the US. Obstacles that African-Americans have to deal with in this country is not comparable to what many other people in the world have to deal with. Many of these young people have barely ever experienced racism, at least not more so than other minorities in the very same US. Of course when you find it convenient to play your race card all the time you won't feel any responsibility to take matters into your own hands. Of course you won't care to be a good parent. Of course you won't teach your kid that they are as valuable as any other human being, as intelligent as anybody else, and as capable as any other American to build a decent life. I've been teaching this college-level course six times now in the past two years. The school is private and the students are all from financially decent to rich families. Yet my African-American students are always, consistently, my poorest students not only in terms of grades but also in terms of attitude. They simply don't care. They don't show up, they don't listen, they don't pay attention, they don't respect and yes, they have parents who are paying such crazy tuition. Hiring female or African-American faculty members here in the US improve a university's rankings but how many African-American professors do we have in our entire school? Zero. How many African-American PhD students do we have in the entire PhD program? Zero. And I'm talking about a city whose population is plus 40% black.

Where are you teaching?

Great points, by the way.

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No. In fact you said the opposite. It's like your self defense argument. Your lack of nuance is making it very hard for me to understand what you mean.

I said the opposite? Kindly point out what has been different that I haven't been repeating over and over again.

 

[Seven]

The school is private and the students are all from financially decent to rich families. Yet my African-American students are always, consistently, my poorest students not only in terms of grades but also in terms of attitude. They simply don't care. They don't show up, they don't listen, they don't pay attention, they don't respect and yes, they have parents who are paying such crazy tuition. Hiring female or African-American faculty members here in the US improve a university's rankings but how many African-American professors do we have in our entire school? Zero. How many African-American PhD students do we have in the entire PhD program? Zero. And I'm talking about a city whose population is plus 40% black.

You know I could say the exact same thing about muslim students in Belgium, right?

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I said the opposite? Kindly point out what has been different that I haven't been repeating over and over again.

ALC, like myself, says luck plays a big part. You said it doesn't and that hard work will always pay off. If you had said that hard work will pay off in the right circumstances, I would have agreed with you. That's not what you said though.

 

[Ocelot]

They definitely do play a part, there's no denying that. Still can't be used as an excuse and still doesn't mean you can't succeed in life if you don't work hard.

There will probably always be a lower class, just means you have to try harder to get somewhere. Use your ingenuity to get to the top. You don't have to play by the book where you go to college and then just expect a job.

Some people will be held back by burdens, such as having to provide for younger siblings or being young yourself and turning into a single parent all of a sudden. Shit like that is common everywhere but people have shown they can overcome. Not all of them will, but if one in a hundred does it, that provides hope and inspiration to the rest. And as long as people have hope, they'll keep succeeding. Look at third world countries and tell me what hope the lower class has over there.

But when membership to the lower or higher income class in America is determined to a very very large extent simply by birth, you can't even pretend that it's fair, or that people in poverty (talking about them as a whole) are the ones to blame for their predicament.

 

[IliveForJuve]

Or because you never got a chance at any decent education, your mother lives alone and got you when she was 16, half of the people in your environment are drug addicts and the best job you'll ever be able to get barely covers your living expenses.

Key word: can

It's obvious that certain circumstances can make it a hundred times harder for someone. I was referring to the average Joe.

 

[Ocelot]

Key word: can

It's obvious that certain circumstances can make it a hundred times harder for someone. I was referring to the average Joe.

The people in Baltimore aren't your average Joe though, their situation is closer to what I described - even though that's certainly an example on the more extreme end of the spectrum.

And their situation continues getting worse, and their numbers are rising.

 

[Hust]

The American dream isn't a lie.

For every guy that trains as hard as Usain Bolt that never becomes like Usain Bolt isn't limited to trying something different to gain success unless he limits himself to only doing what Usain Bolt does.

Which is exactly why one must not limit himself to only one set path. One must also define what success is to them. Wealth? Title? Longevity in a career? Family? Upper middle class? Success is different for everyone.

My multi-millionaire friend worked at both the world bank and IMF earning more than any of us ever will but that wasn't success to him. Now he owns 2 companies making a godly amount of money working 6-7 days a week and to him that's success. Point is, one thing might not work out so depending on your personal definition of success you can branch into something completely different to find success.

American dream is certainly harder to achieve these days through various issues but it is certainly still alive and well. Laughable when non-US citizens tell us its a lie.

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You might want to come up with a different point because this guy begs to differ.

You have what, 2 billionaires? We have how many? I think the number is 536 and most certainly growing.

But hey, I'm sure none of the immigrants leaving central/south america won't find success here that they obviously couldn't in their homelands.

Our shrinking middle class would certainly support your argument. Like I said, its harder today for sure but its still alive. Some things need to change for that Dream to remain alive but I will argue day and night with anyone that says its a lie.

That's your rebuttal?

My Italian grandparents raised 10 kids 4 of which are millionaires and my mom owned her own business without a college degree. Now my brother owns his own business without a college degree and has patented two of his own products.

Of course it is. Because all the other athletes trying to become great soccer players obviously will fail at everything else, right?

I don't know whats worse...that argument or the down-syndrome one.

I'm twisting and turning how? I'm absolutely confident in both my argument and the American Dream, as stated. So, until I concede you have a point lets not exaggerate to try to support your own case.

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Let me ask you this: What is YOUR definition of success, Seven. For YOU to be successful on YOUR own terms, define it.

I've already agreed with Ocelot that is certainly true, as things stand, more so than ever. But still possible.

Regardless, if you can't define success on your own terms then there is no point in arguing is there?

Simply put, success is different to everyone. If the American Dream ethos simply said you can be a millionaire all you need to do is try then sure, you would have a point. But to outright say the Dream is a lie when you can't even answer your own definition of personal success let alone everyone living here is silly in my opinion.

What is this with you and adding health into the equation? Is the cancer treatable or terminal? Maybe knowing that person might die would motivate them more than before they had cancer to accomplish something before they die on their own terms of success. You simply don't know.

The American Dream is nothing more than ideals, not a guarantee to have a healthy life.

Again, I keep saying this. It all depends on what your own personal definition of success is.

Where are you teaching?

Great points, by the way.

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I said the opposite? Kindly point out what has been different that I haven't been repeating over and over again.

ALC, like myself, says luck plays a big part. You said it doesn't and that hard work will always pay off. If you had said that hard work will pay off in the right circumstances, I would have agreed with you. That's not what you said though.

I never mentioned luck, nor did you ask me if luck is involved and if you did I apologize because I missed it. Either you are confusing me with AC or you have no clue what you are talking about. I'll let you decide. Hard work is probably one of the biggest contributing factors because when one is down on their luck hard work CAN overcome a bad run. This isn't simply about playing the lottery.

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The people in Baltimore aren't your average Joe though, their situation is closer to what I described - even though that's certainly an example on the more extreme end of the spectrum.

And their situation continues getting worse, and their numbers are rising.

This is impossible to argue without getting into a ridiculous political discussion. You all know my opinion on politics here so its pointless for me to even go any further because I can guarantee someone will attack my views on it.

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But when membership to the lower or higher income class in America is determined to a very very large extent simply by birth, you can't even pretend that it's fair, or that people in poverty (talking about them as a whole) are the ones to blame for their predicament.

Funny thing is, our poor class, well the majority of it, is still better off than the poor class in most other parts of the world minus parts of Europe and pockets in Asia.

 

[Ocelot]

This is impossible to argue without getting into a ridiculous political discussion. You all know my opinion on politics here so its pointless for me to even go any further because I can guarantee someone will attack my views on it.

Well, what's the fun in posting your opinion if everyone agrees with it?
But it's your decision of course.

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Funny thing is, our poor class, well the majority of it, is still better off than the poor class in most other parts of the world minus parts of Europe and pockets in Asia.

Of course, but that's no reason not to improve the situation, or at least prevent it from getting worse.

 

[Hust]

Well, what's the fun in posting your opinion if everyone agrees with it?
But it's your decision of course.

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Of course, but that's no reason not to improve the situation, or at least prevent it from getting worse.

I'm all for debating, believe me. Anyone that knows me on here knows how persistent I am but when the name calling starts is when I exit stage door left.

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Of course, but that's no reason not to improve the situation, or at least prevent it from getting worse.

I never said it was.

 

[Seven]

I never mentioned luck, nor did you ask me if luck is involved and if you did I apologize because I missed it. Either you are confusing me with AC or you have no clue what you are talking about. I'll let you decide. Hard work is probably one of the biggest contributing factors because when one is down on their luck hard work CAN overcome a bad run. This isn't simply about playing the lottery.

What? My whole point was that luck is a decisive factor.. I never said hard work had nothing to do with it. My point is that sometimes bad luck does get in the way of success.

 

[ALC]

But when membership to the lower or higher income class in America is determined to a very very large extent simply by birth, you can't even pretend that it's fair, or that people in poverty (talking about them as a whole) are the ones to blame for their predicament.

No one said anything about fair tho. The idea is that you can work yourself out of a bad spot.

People in poverty are being blamed for digging themselves a deeper hole. Look at what Hoori said, often times poorer people, which in Philly tend to be black, are almost always the ones who refuse to act civilized in class, learn, or care about anything. There's plenty of jobs and businesses they could go into, even landscaping for example. But they look down on those jobs for some reason. Can't scruff your new Jordans you spent your entire money on.

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I'm all for debating, believe me. Anyone that knows me on here knows how persistent I am but when the name calling starts is when I exit stage door left.

poopy pants